GA needs new blood!

[Shiny Side Up]

Out of curiosity, how often do you have more than yourself and one other person in that 180 you fly?

Not often, but then, few people want to fly with me since I'm such a nice guy. The price is right though. It is a bit overkill though, so I got something more reasonable for my own endeavors.

That said though, I try to fill seats when I can. Working on the "bad infuence" part of my evil credentials, but also teens tend to be more interested in things their parents think are bad, so working on it from that angle.

[DonutHole]

I read the title and thought 'GA NEEDS BLOOD DONATIONS

because really, that's the only way people can afford it.

[ScottS]

I think more private owners need to be willing to loan/rent to non-owners. With proper insurance the risks can be managed. Usually works out cheaper for the renter and the added flexibility to go off to distant places makes flying desirable. The owner benefits from a plane that isn't rusting out and recovered maintenance costs.

I wouldn't be flying much right now if it wasn't for a nice guy that shares his Cherokee with me for a decent rate. I managed to get 30 hours so far this year, fly almost once a week, and have gotten involved in airport issues just because of this.

[Shiny Side Up]

I think more private owners need to be willing.

I don't feel they need to be giving out their airplanes, but they do need to participate. Largely this just means showing up sometimes. I know a lot of owners who pretty much stick to themselves, and would be happy if flying was restricted only to their own interests. You only hear from these guys after the fact, when prices go up, landing fees are levied or further restrictions are put in place on aviating. For some reason they don't see how the larger picture affects their personal dog in the race.

The burden of propagating aviation to the next generation so they can further it for the preceding one seems to always fall on a very small, but thankfully dedicated, group.

[Rookie50]

I think more private owners need to be willing to loan/rent to non-owners. With proper insurance the risks can be managed. Usually works out cheaper for the renter and the added flexibility to go off to distant places makes flying desirable. The owner benefits from a plane that isn't rusting out and recovered maintenance costs.

I wouldn't be flying much right now if it wasn't for a nice guy that shares his Cherokee with me for a decent rate. I managed to get 30 hours so far this year, fly almost once a week, and have gotten involved in airport issues just because of this.

To take the other side -- seriously why -- should anyone do this?

I'm not about to do that, and before I bought I looked around trying to buy block time --as a cpl with lots of retract time -- now I understand more why folks aren't eager to enter into that arrangement.

One gear up landing, one dented firewall -- it's just not worth it. I fly a lot, and even if I was willing to accept the insurance setup, having a plane offline or with damage history -- no thanks.

Maybe for someone owning a fixed gear 172 flying 30 hours a year -- but it isnt charity. For what I would have to charge anyone per hour just to cover all in expenses -- they are better off renting, as I did for 6 years before I bought.

Now mentoring, helping, encouraging, take for a ride -- absolutely.

Just my $02. Best bet is joining a multi -owner partnership on a simple plane -- they are quite reasonable (if you can find one)

[DonutHole]

Maybe aviation has lost enough of its shine that the younger generation isn't interested because it just isn't worth their while.

Maybe this is the oversupply fixing itself through evolution.

[Shiny Side Up]

Maybe aviation has lost enough of its shine that the younger generation isn't interested because it just isn't worth their while.

Maybe this is the oversupply fixing itself through evolution.

What on earth are you talking about? We're talking about the recreational, personal, grass root flying, try to keep up. Flying is more than big planes at big airports.

[Tom H]

Expenses...

I really think folks need to look around a little more before throwing the axe at flying recreationally.

Anyone look at what it costs to keep a kid in hockey now or most other sports...or even an adult?

I know lots of folks that drop 10-20,000K a year on fishing and their fish boat.

Skiing as well.

Never mind Snow machines and Harleys.

Once past the license rec flying is not much different than a ton of other hobbies that are popular.

With regards to learning to fly...the single biggest criticism I hear in general is poor customer service.

The number of guys (yes guys specifically) I have met in non aviation social circles that walked away from learning because of poor customer service is amazing. Guys with the money to get their license cash and buy an airplane cash.

Sometimes aviation is its own worst enemy.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[LousyFisherman]

Another problem is the Flying Schools. I constantly hear from students that the Schools discourage the RPP course
Why is this ......because the school will make less money ?

No, because ninety percent of people who come for a license should get a RPP with what ultimately they're planning to do, but go for a PPL because they dream big when it comes to flying. It should be said that most young people who come are considering a CPL, so then in that case the RPP ->PPL -> CPL costs them more money. One should also say that a lot of new students view the lower license as less of an achievement, and oddly enough most would rather not complete a PPL than complete a RPP.

Maybe your school is like that Shiny, but the majority in the Calgary area actively discourage the RPP. You will want to get your night rating, you will want to go to the US, you will need it for your commercial license.........

The RPP is very limiting but I agree it is correct for most people. I am the only pilot left from my ground school course 5 years ago, and the only reason I need a PPL. is many rentals and partnerships require a PPL.. I almost never fly more than 1 other person, I do not have my night rating (I may get it sometime), and since America considers me a (very small) potential terrorsit threat I am unlikely to ever cross the border in a small plane.

Even so I would make the RPP a pre-req for the PPL. Get your RPP, bomb around for 10-20 hours (or more) and then if you need your PPL go get it.

One of the problems that I see is teh view in this thread that to participate in aviation, you need to have your own plane. This is a problem.
Snip....
Sometime these people who can't afford to fly are going to be able to, and they need to be prepped for when they get there.

Partnerships are the most cost-effective and least restricted forms of access to a plane. I do not understand why most owners have not gone to this model since it allows you share fixed costs and unexpected maintenance expenses. Even with floats, find 1-2 other people you trust, everyone has to have a refresher course each year before flying.

Expensive - Yes

The main cost is entry. When I was 16 (1977) my friends bought a boat for $2K. Buy gas, water skis and off to Ghost Lake we go. 4-6 people can participate.
To do the same thing with a plane at the time would have been $2K for the license and then how much for a plane that only 2 can fit in

Apply the same math today. I you remove the front end cost of the license, costs are similar to owning a boat with the same horsepower..

Now mentoring, helping, encouraging, take for a ride -- absolutely.
Just my $02. Best bet is joining a multi -owner partnership on a simple plane -- they are quite reasonable (if you can find one)

And yet 50% of the really excited people who I offer to take for a ride postpone and never re-schedule. 100% if they are members of this site

Since then I've managed to fly through flying clubs and renting other people's planes. It currently costs me about $100/hr wet to fly a 150, and I have no other costs.
Snip....
Still, I'd never get into an actual partnership as there are too many potential problems.

If you fly 2 hours a month in our partnership it comes out to $80/hr wet for a 150, hours after that are $50 wet. This includes replenishing engine and prop reserves, There are far fewer problems involved with a properly run partnership than there are with short term and block time rentals.

To get the youngsters you need to make it as affordable as possible for them to get their license and then keep flying.
- RPP on a 150 (or other low cost plane, the lower the cost the better)
- access to a 150 at $80-100/hour wet

Then it needs to be advertised so when they turn 16-18 with $5 -10K in their pocket they will consider it.

Big posters at the Young Eagles and COPA (ugh) Kids events would be a good start.

It is not my responsibility as an amateur to support YOUR industry. I have neither the means nor the capabilities. Especially since I have spent all my means supporting YOUR industry

Differentiate yourself. If, while looking around for my PPL, if someone had offered a commitment to a RPP for 6K (30 hours @200/hr) I would have seriously considered it (despite the drive to Okotoks). Assess me at 10 hours.......

IMHO
LF

[CpnCrunch]

[
There are far fewer problems involved with a properly run partnership than there are with short term and block time rentals.

The problem with partnerships are:

- difficulty getting out of it (similar to selling a plane)
- need to see eye to eye on upgrades

I prefer to rent block time off someone else, or buy my own plane and rent it out. For example, the plane I'm renting now has a 406 ELT which the owner bought, and I think it is an unnecessary expense at this time.

[Shiny Side Up]

It is not my responsibility as an amateur to support YOUR industry. I have neither the means nor the capabilities. Especially since I have spent all my means supporting YOUR industry

Not asking people to support it, I want people to preserve what we collectively already have. Yeah, I stand to benefit more from it, but I also put more into it. I do what I can to make the licensing process as low cost as it possibly can, but fair to those who work in it as well. But then, a lot of this thread is directed at all the other people that do what I do who aren't doing their bit either. Other schools are hideously unrepresented at aviation events. In spite of them making ample use of the area's aviation resourses, they do very little encouraging what would help things for all flyers. Victims of the focus on big airports.

But yeah, its a call to the amateurs as well. There's a lot of them reaping the benefits, but as before its only a small active core who are carrying it for the rest.

BTW, have you guys got another airplane yet?

[goldeneagle]

The main cost is entry. When I was 16 (1977) my friends bought a boat for $2K. Buy gas, water skis and off to Ghost Lake we go. 4-6 people can participate.
To do the same thing with a plane at the time would have been $2K for the license and then how much for a plane that only 2 can fit in

Well, I can answer that, because I did exactly that, albeit a year earlier, in 1976. My total bill for my ppl at the time, was $832, all in, and that got me a shiny new private pilot license at the ripe old age of 17, after waiting for the birthday to roll around and I was finally old enough to hold the license. My friends were all looking to buy cars, I bought an airplane. It was an aeronca chief, 65hp ragwing putt putt. Total cost, $4000 with a fresh annual. Some of my friends spent a LOT more than that on muscle cars at the time. I didn't need a car for most of the summer, they were all busy driving me to the airport, to go for an airplane ride.

I flew that thing a LOT over that summer, ran my logbook up to close to 300 hours. When I sold it, the money from that sale purchased my CPL, and most of the MEIFR as well. By the time my 18th birthday rolled around, I was again waiting for a license to be issued, had met all of the CPL requirements except age. My CPL was issued originally with the MEIFR because I had already finished those. The instructor rating was a bit of a problem tho, at the time I was told a CPL was a pre-requisite for the IR, so I hadn't done that course yet. Started that the day after I got my CPL, 12 hours and around a grand later, had the IR added onto my license.

The dollars numbers for a similar deal today do indeed seem a lot larger, but, inflation adjusted, it's not really that much more. The big difference I see, when I was 16 I had a full time job during the summer, which paid in the $7 an hour range, so all of this stuff was within reach if I was careful spending what I earned. Today, full time jobs in the summer for a 16 year old do NOT pay an equivalent amount when adjusted for inflation, they would be lucky to be making $10 today. In those terms, an hour on the job back then, would buy me 10 GALLONS of fuel to put in my plane, which was less than a buck a gallon for 80/87 which was what we put in the old aeronca at the time. Today, at close to 2 bucks a liter, that price of the gas has kept pace with, or possibly outrun inflation over the time, but those wages have absolutely NOT kept up, and that's what puts a lot of this stuff out of reach for the youngsters today.

[cap41]

Expenses...

I really think folks need to look around a little more before throwing the axe at flying recreationally.

Anyone look at what it costs to keep a kid in hockey now or most other sports...or even an adult?

I know lots of folks that drop 10-20,000K a year on fishing and their fish boat.

Skiing as well.

Never mind Snow machines and Harleys.

Once past the license rec flying is not much different than a ton of other hobbies that are popular.

With regards to learning to fly...the single biggest criticism I hear in general is poor customer service.

The number of guys (yes guys specifically) I have met in non aviation social circles that walked away from learning because of poor customer service is amazing. Guys with the money to get their license cash and buy an airplane cash.

Sometimes aviation is its own worst enemy.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Yep you can spend 20K get yourself a nice boat or C150. But, thats where the similarities stop. Reason i sold my planes, one simple problem. MAINTENANCE !! it was just getting out of hand. with the cost of gas, insurance, and annuals, tie downs, it priced me out of the market.
As far as renting from a school, whoever said bad customer service hit the nail on the head. 140$ an hour ok, reasonable by aviation costs. add the extra $$ for fuel surcharge, extra for insurance, yada yada yada. Add to that your last on their list of priorities.

BTW when I owned, I was always happy to block rent my plane.

Doesn't give a customer a positive experience.

[CpnCrunch]

The problem is that you get a lot more (and newer) boat for your money. My wife's boss has one of these boats:

http://www.searay.com/page.aspx/pageid/ ... ancer.aspx

It's a really nice boat, and compared to a plane it is amazingly cheap for what you get (about $100k new). If you wanted the equivalent plane, you'd pay about $500k for a new 182.

[New_PIC]

...
Yep you can spend 20K get yourself a nice boat or C150. But, thats where the similarities stop. Reason i sold my planes, one simple problem. MAINTENANCE !! it was just getting out of hand. with the cost of gas, insurance, and annuals, tie downs, it priced me out of the market.
...

Don't forget the impending engine overhaul! A lot of the planes for sale out there are close to or over TBO, and good luck trying to get a straight answer from anyone on the cost of that overhaul. Seems like "if you have to ask, you can't afford it."

[LousyFisherman]

BTW, have you guys got another airplane yet?

Doing a pre-buy on one in Vancouver this week. Fingers crossed

LF

[flyalmaguin]

I'm also a little bit cheesed that only a few made an effort to make the new blood feel welcome to the event, it really had the feel of an old farts club meeting. That's really got to change.

Kinda like when someone asks about ultralight instructing.....

[Shiny Side Up]

Kinda like when someone asks about ultralight instructing.....

The reasons that you were wanting to be an ultralight instructor were highly questionable. On the flip side of things aviation really doesn't need more people doing stuff to give it a bad name. Like the rash of ultralights lately that I became aware of that have been flying with no license, no training, no registration around here. Apparently the trouble they caused finally warranted action by TC.

[Tom H]

Kinda like when someone asks about ultralight instructing.....

The reasons that you were wanting to be an ultralight instructor were highly questionable. On the flip side of things aviation really doesn't need more people doing stuff to give it a bad name. Like the rash of ultralights lately that I became aware of that have been flying with no license, no training, no registration around here. Apparently the trouble they caused finally warranted action by TC.

Shiny

I get your point and agree.

But it does bring up another point that is a problem

Can't speak for any other areas but in my world.

Aviation is fraught with divisions...you get

The ultralight folks
Then the grass roots level homebuilt guys
Then the Cool homebuilt guys
The Certified Drivers (Cessnas, Pipers, etc)
The high dollar gang (high buck aircraft of all ages)
The warbird folks
The Aerobatic folks

With little cross over or conversation in between

There are exceptions to the rule and a big thanks to them!

But by and large we are a pretty fractured group

In my highly biased personal opinion

[flyalmaguin]

Aviation is fraught with divisions...you get

The ultralight folks
Then the grass roots level homebuilt guys
Then the Cool homebuilt guys
The Certified Drivers (Cessnas, Pipers, etc)
The high dollar gang (high buck aircraft of all ages)
The warbird folks
The Aerobatic folks

+1

My point exactly, too bad some (especially here on Avcanada) think flying is and should be the exclusive domain of the wealthy certified world.

Maybe if GA was affordable for the average person (read young people) you'd see more young people at fly-ins.

[Rookie50]

Got my annual completed this week. Blown away to hear my AME compliment my plane's condition and then comment how some of their customers for annuals fly only 10 hrs per year on their piston single.

Perhaps the comment above is right -- those airplanes would be so much better off flying more. That's got to be a scary all in per hour cost -- like over $1000 , $1500 per hour at those low numbers.

[Pop n Fresh]

BTW, have you guys got another airplane yet?

Doing a pre-buy on one in Vancouver this week. Fingers crossed

LF

What model?

[Taiser]

in 1976. My total bill for my ppl at the time, was $832,

Wow! And 10 years later (in 1986) when I got mine, it cost me just under $6000.00!!! I was working a good summer job on the highways making about 12$ and hour. That's a hell of an inflation bump in 10 years! I think a PPL is about 8-10k now so it has obviously somewhat stabilized but I don't like this boat comparison.

A nice boat might be the same price as a used plane, but it will be a NEW boat, not a 30+ year old one. Also if my boat engine blows, it won't cost me 30k to replace it. And I don't need an AME costing me 100$ an hour to fix it, or do annuals and ADs. Lots of guys have expensive hobbies, but once the initial cost is done (harley's, boat's, RV's, etc) the maintenance cost is nowhere near the cost of flying! Even our gas is $2.00 a liter!!!! We can't seem to win... but who has more fun than us!!!

[Shiny Side Up]

Aviation is fraught with divisions...you get

The ultralight folks
Then the grass roots level homebuilt guys
Then the Cool homebuilt guys
The Certified Drivers (Cessnas, Pipers, etc)
The high dollar gang (high buck aircraft of all ages)
The warbird folks
The Aerobatic folks

+1

My point exactly, too bad some (especially here on Avcanada) think flying is and should be the exclusive domain of the wealthy certified world.

Maybe if GA was affordable for the average person (read young people) you'd see more young people at fly-ins.

You hardly need to be wealthy to fly certified airplanes. I'm sort of proof of that. But you don't have to be certified either, I fly lots of homebuilts too, which is a good way to cut costs. Hell, I've flown ultralights as well, but there's something with that group - that your posts about the subject have only proven - that really needs to be cleaned up. Its unfortunate that the focus of ultralight flying is cutting corners wherever possible.

Tom H after all forgot about one of the other sectors, the glider guys, which while some of the goal there is reducing costs of flying, have a much better attitude towards conducting safe operations. The ultralight crowd could take a cue from this.

Clearly though from this thread there is a strong perception that to participate, you need to have your own, and that's something we collectively, need to get out there.

[PilotDAR]

It would be easier to attract new blood, if the old blood were more welcoming, and engaging to newcomers. There are fewer newcomers at airports now, for many unfortunate reasons - one being the ease now of "being around aviation" without being near planes and airports - the internet.

If I had met many of the people I encounter here - at an airport, I would have offered them a flight to be social - but even I no longer hang around airports (my planes live here at home). I stop by airports from time to time, and even I cannot find where people are sitting and chatting. When I learned to fly at Brampton in the '70's, it was usually teeming with people, you could strike up a conversation easily. I stopped by there a few weeks ago, on a beautiful Saturday. I counted only three people who were just idling around - my hope is that everyone was up flying! I did have one fellow stop by and chat about the Teal, though it seemed to me that he was pretty well into aviation too.

Tom H after all forgot about one of the other sectors, the glider guys....

And the floatplane guys, who, unless amphibian, never get to most airports!

For me, back in the day, a trip to the airport (usually Brampton) was a day trip, and made good weather or poor. If poor weather, there'd be many with whom to sit and chat. Now, on poor days, we sit and chat here. So it's kinda like sitting stopped in traffic, anonymously texting all the drivers around you, while being totally unknown in your car. True to motoring, some motorists are giving others the finger, 'cause they can, without being face to face - hidden away in their car.

So new comers hardly ever meet the person. True to internet forums, they'll read to the latter part of the second page of a thread, see some mud slinging, and wonder what kind of people we aviators really are! We'd never speak to each other face to face that way!

So a flaw has crept in - The internet has made worldwide communication easy as can be, but that leads to isolation and anonymity, as people rush away from the airport (and pilots to chat with) to get back to their computer to read what those pilots might write, when they too get home!

I don't have a solution, other than I have been hanging around airports for a half hour lately, rather than just blasting off after buying fuel. In the last 20 years, I have been much more the problem, than the solution - I'm not around airports to just sit and chat either. I'll try to say "hi" to a new person at an airport next time, maybe strike up a chat, and be a little late that day posting here!