Training at an uncontrolled vs controlled airport

[Cat Driver]

Back to your origional question Darksky, the most important thing is you learn to fly the airplane first.

Therefore an uncontrolled airport would be best.

[Shiny Side Up]

I have to side with PF on this one.

As was mentioned, this practice is pretty much an FTU practice.

Actually no. Every operation I've worked for when we're in the business of charging airplane time to the customer, that starts the second I start burning fuel. Not sure what company you're working for, but don't think the bean counters who run your company aren't doing the same thing. You don't turn fuel into noise for free.

Either way, two points: Most flight schools pre-heat their aircraft, or have them hangared on "cool" days so warm up times are minimal. Second, a decent school will endeavor to make you as the student be efficient on the ground. If you choose not to be, well then I don't feel bad for you paying more for the thing.

[trey kule]

I think I did not explain things clearly. It is more than charging. It is charged time that is logged, but which no training was done.
It is a bit of hocus pocus...TC is allowing FTUs to allow their students to log flight time that is really not flight time...and of course the FTU is charging for it. Eventually, I expect someone will take TC to task for it and we will see a change.

I am not sure you start charging as soon as the engine is started is universally accurate, but rather than have PF come on here to attack me I will leave that alone. Years ago, at a time not much earlier in the season, we used to start the old radials up and let them run sometimes for 15 mins..I dont recall any pilot claiming that was flight time while they were still tied to the dock... And many cool mornings it took good five minutes to bring all the temps up on the opposed engines as well. Even in the summer on the first flight. And even when it was colder and preheated.

Anyway, it seems I am in a small minority of about one here, and the students are happy.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

I always hated the fact that I paid at least an extra $30 for every flight, just for time on the ground. I would pay for 1.5 hours and only get to log 1.3 in my log book.

That should *not* be the case. For the purposes of licencing, you should be logging flight time, not air time. The Hobbs time is flight time, to within a minute or so, so if you paid for 1.5 hours on the Hobbs you should be logging 1.5 hours in your personal log and in your PTR..

Yes, that's what I do now. But when I was earning my PPL or night rating, the instructor would invariably log less time in my PTR and therefore I would be paying for more than I was earning towards my requirements. How can I tell the insructor that he/she has the numbers wrong ? That's a tough one.

There's a reason you knock off 0.2 hours from the Hobbs when recording flight time.

No - you should knock about 0.2 off the Hobbs when recording air time, not flight time.

I don't have a sample of the flying clubs invoice sheet in front of me so I can't confirm whether they call their invoice time "flight time" or "air time". It is likely that I confused the two, but I think you know what I mean. Subtracting 0.2 hours from the actual time when calculating the time when the plane is in the air is done for a reason.

[photofly]

I think I did not explain things clearly. It is more than charging. It is charged time that is logged, but which no training was done.

I'm not attacking you; I'm attacking the idea that charging by what the Hobbs meter says is fraudulent. Most flight schools and instructors try very hard to do the best for their students. New students looking for training and reading this have the right not to be misled by an expert into thinking that anyone who charges by Hobbs time is a crook.

Yes, there are times when the meter is running, the student is paying, and little or no learning goes on. That might include time queuing for the runway, waiting for the radio channel to clear or depending on the instructor, time in the air. The minute before the aircraft moves that isn't, strictly, flight time, may or may not be part of that time. Regardless it's up to the instructor to make best use of all the time, for the student's benefit.

[CpnCrunch]

I don't have a sample of the flying clubs invoice sheet in front of me so I can't confirm whether they call their invoice time "flight time" or "air time". It is likely that I confused the two, but I think you know what I mean. Subtracting 0.2 hours from the actual time when calculating the time when the plane is in the air is done for a reason.

They'll just subtract 0.2 (or whatever) for the airtime that is logged in the journey log. Your PTR and your logbook should be the flight time (with the 0.2 not subtracted).

Even if they did log your flight time wrong (which I think is probably unlikely), it probably doesn't matter unless you're going for a CPL.

IMO charging by tach time makes more sense and is fairer to both parties. When you charge wet hobbs you're just encouraging the renter to firewall the throttle for the entire flight.

[Pop n Fresh]

Fly at a busy enough airport and you'll be subtracting the .5 or what ever time you spend on the ground waiting to depart. Don't worry you'll still pay for whatever the Hobbs time is.

[Shiny Side Up]

I think I did not explain things clearly. It is more than charging. It is charged time that is logged, but which no training was done.
It is a bit of hocus pocus...TC is allowing FTUs to allow their students to log flight time that is really not flight time...and of course the FTU is charging for it. Eventually, I expect someone will take TC to task for it and we will see a change.

I am not sure you start charging as soon as the engine is started is universally accurate, but rather than have PF come on here to attack me I will leave that alone. Years ago, at a time not much earlier in the season, we used to start the old radials up and let them run sometimes for 15 mins..I dont recall any pilot claiming that was flight time while they were still tied to the dock... And many cool mornings it took good five minutes to bring all the temps up on the opposed engines as well. Even in the summer on the first flight. And even when it was colder and preheated.

Anyway, it seems I am in a small minority of about one here, and the students are happy.

Surely you must accept that different flying operations do different things. For example, it would be a rarity for a flight school airplane to have to be run to be warmed up prior to the students using it. Sure a beaver that spent the night tied to a dock, yes, a 172 that was just pulled out of a heated hangar, no. Even if the aircraft do need to be run up, I record hobbs running, though don't log it, mainly so we can keep the bean counters happy with how all the fuel is used. I would speculate that if you're warming up planes prior to use, someone would like to note how often that happens, but maybe not.

I would also debate whether learning occurs just because the airplane isn't actually doing something. Perhqaps some of the best lessons that one could get across to students might be when the instructor demonstrates that such things are important - though I'm sure everyone will view that as just milking the student. You might also argue that today I wasted the student's time when I made him stop to look both ways before entering the uncontrolled runway too. The airplane being paused in motion for a few seconds, If its not moving you can't be learning right?

If you feel that this is the big critical issue that's wrong with flight training today, well you're tripping over dollars to pick up pennies.

[Cat Driver]

Just a quick search of flight training in Canada for the cost it comes out to $3.50 per minute.

I don't know about the rest of you here but that is serious money ticking away.

[iflyforpie]

Another time when there is quite a large disparity between 'legal' flight time and 'charged' flight time is during Multi-IFR training. How many minutes are spent with the engines running while you go through setting up instruments, departure briefings, ATIS, and checking the autopilot before you move the aircraft? I always try to save a few $$$ by doing as much as I can before start up... so even with the Space Shuttle checklists.. all you have to say is COMPLETED or SET and go onto the next thing.

[Pop n Fresh]

...$3.50...I don't know about the rest of you here but that is serious money...

I hear ya man.

[cj75]

I've instructed at controlled and busy and non busy uncontrolled airports. Advantages and disadvantages to all three.

Controlled:
Advantages: You learn to talk to tower. You learn thay are there to help and are no longer intimidating. A great mix of small and large aircraft.
Disadvantages: You spend a bit more $ due to longer taxi and waiting times. Sometimes you have to extend your downwind because Westjest is landing. Not so bad really. You get to land behind a 737.

Uncontrolled (busy):
Advantages: You learn to use your eyes to look for traffic. You learn to listen on the radio. You learn to fly with six or more in the circuit. Busy uncontrolled airports no longer phase you.
Disadvantages: You can spend a lot of time in line waiting to take off. Less exposure to ATC.

Uncontrolled (not busy):
Advantages: You get the place to yourself a lot of the time. The airport is your playground. You can practice forced approaches, crosswind landings, grass landings etc. There is NORDO traffic so you learn to use your eyes. There is no ATIS or advisory and often no "active runway" so you become more self suficient in planning your arrival.
Disadvantages: Even less exposure to ATC. You begin to fear talking to ATC. Sometimes there is wildlife on the runways.

All the best in your training.

[JasonE]

I would pick uncontrolled (and did).

1) Focus on flying first - you can learn the controlled airport stuff later. You will go to one with your instructor at some point.
2) No waiting for clearances & taxiing
3) Forces you to pay more attention to what other are doing and their intentions rather than relying on clearances.
4) Usually their practice area is closer. I can get to ours in about 5 minutes from wheels up.

[Shiny Side Up]

You begin to fear talking to ATC.

Never understood why this is the case. Why is ATC scary to so many people? They're just human beings. That would be like saying since I don't talk to my Mom every day, its intimidating when I do. All in your head. Its scary if you tell yourself its scary.

Just a quick search of flight training in Canada for the cost it comes out to $3.50 per minute.

I don't know about the rest of you here but that is serious money ticking away.

Sure, but so is everything. A cab ride works out to be about $2.50/ minute, and that thing guzzles a whole lot less gas. Someone working on your car is running about 1.75 a minute these days, and some of those guys don't even know what the wheels on their tool box is for.

Personally lots of people can be more efficient with their time in the airplane, and lots of the time that ain't the instructor's fault.

[Rookie50]

http://www.liveatc.net/

Any tower you want. Learns the lingo and order. Still vote for busy uncontrolled for ab intro, but maybe controlled for Ifr.

[Cat Driver]

Sometimes there is wildlife on the runways.

In over sixty years of flying I only once saw wildlife on the runway, a giraffe.

[Pop n Fresh]

Sometimes there is wildlife on the runways.

In over sixty years of flying I only once saw wildlife on the runway, a giraffe.

I had to overshoot for a coyote once. It just stood there looking at us.

http://www.liveatc.net/

Any tower you want. Learns the lingo and order. Still vote for busy uncontrolled for ab intro, but maybe controlled for Ifr.

I agree, even though I personally like a nice busy controlled airport just fine for flying in and out of grabbing lunch and checking out cities enroute to where ever.