Ice Pilots - Season 3

[Adiabatic]

Here is the scenario for every landing. The PF, is looking forward out the window on landing. On touchdown, the PF brings the power levers from flight idle up onto the ramp(actually lifting the levers into ground range). Prior to pulling reverse, the FE has to confirm that all props are in Beta range(four lights), before pulling the power levers aft to get some kick ass reverse thrust. The FE's hand is there to prevent reverse if not all of the props are in beta range, and to help pull the props into ground range. It is also handy to have the FE ready on the power levers if there is a reason to do a go-around/missed approach. PF will initiate it and say "missed approach, max power(FE), flaps 78%(PNF), gear up(PNF)"
On takeoff, the PF initiates the takeoff by going "off the ramp" (out of ground range/beta) and pushing the power levers forward. Then the PF says "set power", now the power levers are all the FE's responsibility. You can say "pilots power" at any time u want, i.e. training but who wants to do that when someone else can move the levers around for you!
Mr. Barry, 7.5 years with the green machine, F/O-DC4, Captain on the DC3, and F/O on the Electra. Throw some small twins in there occasionally. Started just like ol Jeremy did way back when.

[pelmet]

Thanks for the excellent reply. All makes sense, although I'm sure the pilot doesn't need 'help' to bring the engines into reverse(beta). The pilot may also for some reason feel the need to modulate throttles together or individually for aircraft control. A second set of hands could get in the way. But obviously, that is how it works on the Electra(at least in Buffalo, and maybe as per Lockheed).

[human garbage]

Just finished watching last weeks show. I have no choice but to take Gord's side. I believe he didn't know of his future employment with First Air. DHC

Not me, There is no way Bradley's just phoned him and hired him over the phone; he knew it was coming. Losers like that are why there are training bonds these days. Joe gave him a thumbs up, and he gave Joe the finger. He could have just said to Joe, why not wait a bit, I had an interview at Bradley's that went well and I'll know in a week or so, after that I will commit to another year if you still want me on the 46.

No honour.

That is my gut feeling as well. I would have turned down the PPC if I even thought I had a chance of moving before a year was up. Its the right thing to do IMHO. Wonder what the new employer made of it all when they saw it on TV. They would know if it was BS, and what to expect down the road if it was... Might have been a big mistake for Gord-o in the long run. Hopefully for his sake he was telling the truth. Call me skeptical though, seen it too many times.

[Donald]

Just finished watching last weeks show. I have no choice but to take Gord's side. I believe he didn't know of his future employment with First Air. DHC

Not me, There is no way Bradley's just phoned him and hired him over the phone; he knew it was coming. Losers like that are why there are training bonds these days. Joe gave him a thumbs up, and he gave Joe the finger. He could have just said to Joe, why not wait a bit, I had an interview at Bradley's that went well and I'll know in a week or so, after that I will commit to another year if you still want me on the 46.

No honour.

Ummmm...you guys know this is a TV show, right? With something called: "editing"??

Even if this played exactly as the show depicted it, a 6-year employee of Buffalo has worked off more than a few PPC's in slave labour...

[Hornblower]

Ya but Joe wasn't acting for the camera , or at least I don't think so, In any case he left very soon after getting his PPC, or it wouldn't have been an issue with which to make drama.

In any case, since it is a "reality" show, I'm gonna speculate like it's reality ... k?

[DHCdriver]

I know it's TV, but Joe was "pissed" at Gord. It seemed at times during his little hissy fit, he was running out of words and ended it by telling Gord to get the F@%$# out. Sad to see him treat his guys/gals this way. Back to the PPC, I still believe it was of no value to Gord to do the ride and then jump ship. First Air does not have a 46 and why would a 46 PPC on his license benefit him Just my 2 cents. DHC

[Donald]

Do you really think 7F hires people over the phone without an interview, sim eval, etc etc?

[Hornblower]

Agreed, he has no use for it at Bradley I just don't think the Bradley job came up at the drop of a hat like that. Usually an interview, and some indications at the end of that, 'specially if you are a likely going to be a succesful candidate. I'm sure Gordo knew what he was doing ... just don't think that was the right way to do it I also agree that Joe can be a miserable prick, but given the same circumstances, I would have been equally pissed off. Gotta understand that if your company is willing to invest in your future, you should invest in theirs. If that's the way things were, there would be no bonds (oh and the employers who offer signing bonuses to those with other company's fresh PPC don't help either ... but that's old)

[flyinthebug]

I know it's TV, but Joe was "pissed" at Gord. It seemed at times during his little hissy fit, he was running out of words and ended it by telling Gord to get the F@%$# out. Sad to see him treat his guys/gals this way. Back to the PPC, I still believe it was of no value to Gord to do the ride and then jump ship. First Air does not have a 46 and why would a 46 PPC on his license benefit him Just my 2 cents. DHC

He did it for completely selfish reasons. Do you recall his girlfriend saying it was his ultimate dream (at Buffalo) to skipper the 46? He did it so he could say he did...no other reason. He KNEW he was on his way out, and still took the PPC. This IS why we have bonds guys...why is that so hard for some to comprehend??

Oh and as far as reality TV... Joe is no oscar winning actor. The man was genuinely pissed and I would have been too.

Fly safe all.

[hawker driver]

This IS why we have bonds guys...why is that so hard for some to comprehend??


Fly safe all.

No buddy, You have bonds because you take advantage of your employees and expect them to take advantage of you.

When they return the favor you scream about the money you spent on their PPC. You never hear about how much the company saved by using pilots as rampies and delivery drivers rather then paying a full time lineman or delivery driver a normal wage plus benefits and OT.

The way owners and managers treat their employees is a direct reflection on themselves and is an indicator on how successful the company will become. Third rate operations such as Buffalo will always remain third rate since the management style will not allow it to progress to the next level.

Treat your employees with some respect and dignity and maybe you might receive some back.

[mel gibson]

Does it not bother anyone who is slugging it out
in small companies in Canada? Making difficult decisions about
careers, flying old equipment in harsh conditions , trying to
get onto modern equipment, while certain companies in Canada
hire foreign type rated pilots ( 737NG , 757) etc who were
probably state sponsored in their home countries.
This has got to end. Write your MP's.

[NWONT]

Hawker Driver, buddy, I agree with you. I think Joe could do much more for his employees. Not only should every van driver and rampie be put on the pension plan, recieve high wages with O/T he should also be given a company car with a gas card and of course free accommodation. Hell, why stop there, how about interline rates on all major carriers. When all this is given with respect and dignity, well just MAYBE Joe will recieve some of this back. If you are a fully qualified, experienced and valuable pilot then don't drive the van or work the ramp. Get off your ass and get into a flying position. If not ya take what you can get. This is a very competitive industry. If you are not willing to give it all you got to compete and succeed then stay out of it. Bonds are nothing more than a contract, an agreement between two consenting adults. If you don't like or wish to live up to the terms, walk away. This goes for renting an apartment, buying a car or shacking up with your girlfriend.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Here is the scenario for every landing. The PF, is looking forward out the window on landing. On touchdown, the PF brings the power levers from flight idle up onto the ramp(actually lifting the levers into ground range). Prior to pulling reverse, the FE has to confirm that all props are in Beta range(four lights), before pulling the power levers aft to get some kick ass reverse thrust. The FE's hand is there to prevent reverse if not all of the props are in beta range, and to help pull the props into ground range. It is also handy to have the FE ready on the power levers if there is a reason to do a go-around/missed approach. PF will initiate it and say "missed approach, max power(FE), flaps 78%(PNF), gear up(PNF)"
On takeoff, the PF initiates the takeoff by going "off the ramp" (out of ground range/beta) and pushing the power levers forward. Then the PF says "set power", now the power levers are all the FE's responsibility. You can say "pilots power" at any time u want, i.e. training but who wants to do that when someone else can move the levers around for you!
Mr. Barry, 7.5 years with the green machine, F/O-DC4, Captain on the DC3, and F/O on the Electra. Throw some small twins in there occasionally. Started just like ol Jeremy did way back when.

Unlike the DC4 or DC 6 the Electra landing is more jet like, so after touchdown the PF still has to fly the nosewheel on. Therefore you want to have the person responsible for directional control in control of everything including going into beta. Once the nosewheel is on and the airspeed has dropped below 70 knots the Captain will take over the power levers if he is not PF as he has the only nosewheel steering wheel.

[Eric Janson]

Does it not bother anyone who is slugging it out
in small companies in Canada? Making difficult decisions about
careers, flying old equipment in harsh conditions , trying to
get onto modern equipment, while certain companies in Canada
hire foreign type rated pilots ( 737NG , 757) etc who were
probably state sponsored in their home countries.
This has got to end. Write your MP's.

Mel - there are far more Canadians working overseas than foreign Pilots flying in Canada.

If all these Pilots came back to Canada the market would be flooded with highly qualified people.

Would you prefer me working overseas or back in Canada competing with you for a job?

Back to the topic.

[mel gibson]

Umm, fair enough.
I would not be competing for a job with you because I am where i want to be as a career.
I assume you are working in the middle east, asia , india etc,where there is a shortage of pilots.
North Americans cannot work in the EU without an EU passport, because the EU is smart and protect their white collar
aviation jobs. Canadians cannot work in the United States without a green card or dual citizenship because there are
thousands of furloughs in that country and they protect their own.
I bet you never flew in northern Canada and went to some country and applied to an airline with 250 hours and
got an A320 ticket. Forget You and the horse you rode on. This thread is about northern Canadian flying and the pilots that
get forgot over in this country that are trying to become airline pilots. Once again, PFO. (edited for monitors!!)

[North Shore]

This thread is about northern Canadian flying and the pilots that
get forgot over in this country that are trying to become airline pilots. Once again, PFO. (edited for monitors!!)

Ummm, Mel, actually, it's about Buffalo Airways and the tv show 'Ice Pilots'. The topic you are bringing up is, at best, peripheral to that. If you want to start a separate topic about it, then please feel free to do so.

[Blakey]

Other than the "For TV" aspects of the situation, I don't see why this had to be such a big deal. I'll assume that Joe needed a C-46 Captain or he wouldn't have given anyone a PPC ride. I will also assume that Joe is aware that most, if not all, of his pilots have aspirations other than flying frozen fish and potato chips up and down the Mackenzie river for the rest of their days. There have been one or two guys move on from Buffalo over the years so I'm sure he knows this well.

If it had been me in this situation, I would have walked into Joe's office, closed the door and said "Boss, I know you are looking at me for a C-46 Captaincy and I really want to do that job for you. However, I also want to move on to bigger and better things too and I have to tell you that I have an application in at First Air and I think that I may get a call from them soon. If you will let me do the upgrade ride and fly my remaining time here as a Captain, I give you my word that I will tell you as soon as I hear more from First Air. I will ask them for a delay in starting there in order to fly here for a couple of extra months and, if I cannot delay leaving, I will either come back and do some flying for you on my holidays for the first year or I will repay you what it cost for my PPC ride."

Being honest and up front with people is never a bad idea and the total cost, in the worst case scenario = $2000. No hidden agendas, no burning bridges, no hurt feelings. Hell, it might even have been good television too! Remember the old adage about the asses you kick on the way up being the same ones you have to kiss on the way down? Do you think that First Air will have any more loyalty to Gord than Joe did? Do you think Joe would hire Gord again if First Air laid him off?

There was no need for all the drama.

[NWONT]

Blakey, if everyone did this there would be no training bonds.

[Commonwealth]

A bond is a contract between you and your employer. It has already been stated that if you are not willing to live up to the terms of this contract then don't sign it.

There seems to be an attitude here that a pilot should "do the right thing" and let their employers know if they are looking elsewhere for work. First of all, your employer doesn’t really care that you are looking elsewhere for work. They only care when you are leaving so they can plan to have your replacement in place. They are in the business of running a business after all. So when one goes to their boss and says "I'm thinking of going to company X" you are immediately a liability to them because even though you didn't utter the words. You have said: "You can no longer rely on me as a pilot." Therefore a new pilot (one who is perceived to be reliable) will be trained and you will be left to kick proverbial horse turds until company X is ready for your services.

Now back to our Ice Pilot. What if Gord had come to Joe after his interview and sim evaluation with 7F with his intentions? Well, see the above paragraph. Only Gord waited what, eight months before being offered a position? He would have suffered financially. And what if the offer never came? Larger airlines like 7F can change their need for more pilots at the drop of a hat. To summarise: Look out for #1.
CW

[flyinhigh]

Does it not occur to anyone that EDITING plays a major part.

Perhaps this whole 5 minute senario played out over a period of say ohhhhh. A month AFTER the PPC.

Perhaps he did the PPC, than during the first phone call accepted the interview did everything, and through the magic of EDITING it seemed like 1 phone call. Than he gave notice

I love TV

[robertsailor1]

I love professional pilots reacting to a made up and scripted reality show like a lonely house wife eating bon bons as she watches the young and restless.

[Commonwealth]

I love professional pilots reacting to a made up and scripted reality show like a lonely house wife eating bon bons as she watches the young and restless.

touché

[pelmet]

[quote="Big Pistons Forever"]
Unlike the DC4 or DC 6 the Electra landing is more jet like, so after touchdown the PF still has to fly the nosewheel on. Therefore you want to have the person responsible for directional control in control of everything including going into beta. Once the nosewheel is on and the airspeed has dropped below 70 knots the Captain will take over the power levers if he is not PF as he has the only nosewheel steering wheel.[/quote]

I should think that the PF is responsible for directional control. Nosewheels should be flown on to the ground in many jets and props. Don't see too many jets that have someone other than the PF as being responsible for directional control.

I don't think your response really makes sense. Do you fly the Electra?

[North Shore]

^ Yes, he does.

[CLguy]

Interesting episode last night but very typical. Management underbids a contract, sets unrealistic timelines then beats the crew like rented mules to try and cover their ass.

No doubt the manager was in a little over his head and experience level bidding a contract like that.