Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[aerodude]

I got an amazing idea, if you don't like those WAWCON's, don't apply. Supply and demand works in both ways but unfortunately there will be a line up of applicants ready to fly these brand new machines even if they don't know where the bases are, it's insane how we pilots lack professionalism sometimes. We're a laughing stock. Realitychex knows the reality!

[teacher]

I got an amazing idea, if you don't like those WAWCON's, don't apply. Supply and demand works in both ways but unfortunately there will be a line up of applicants ready to fly these brand new machines even if they don't know where the bases are, it's insane how we pilots lack professionalism sometimes. We're a laughing stock. Realitychex knows the reality!

And there in ok the problem, US!

I've had more than my fair safe of friends in other professions and industries just not understand why we carry ourselves professionally like we do to the detriment of our careers. A very simple no thanks would solve so many of our problems.

[anonymity]

BE02
Current starting salary is $80,000 per year based on the current Courtesy Air pay structure.
Let's revisit this in a couple years, once there's a supply of pilots from the no longer existent regional airlines, shall we...

[WJ200]

Guess what....your salary is paid for by high oil prices. Awesome and it is a great Gig. The other side of the coin is the low margins created by the benefits of your high salary. The race to the bottom is not a WestJet issue, it's not a WJPA issue, it's not a regional issue. It's an issue of the travelling public not willing to absorb their own new reality of the cost of air travel. If an airline is to make any kind of a sustainable business they have to deal with this new reality. This isn't WestJet creating this new economy. They are simply having to make a viable company out of a yet unproven business model. Once that model proves it's return, then the pilots will be able to negotiate things like a higher minimum guarantee and a wage which reflects the return. They will do this the same way the WJPA negotiated their own salaries, through collaboration and discussion. I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't worked here for five years to understand that nothing is ever written in stone.....

At the end of the day as pilots we have to ask ourselves if being an Airline pilot is worth the risk in this new economy. Those that have chosen to work at companies which are supported by high oil prices can rest assured that they will be in a position to negotiate some of the best pay and working conditions in the industry. Those of us in the airline industry are sacrificing lifestyle for wages which are at the mercy of the economy. If we push against this new reality, we have to accept some risk of viability.

There is a lot of mis-information about the real Wages and Working Conditions at Encore. I'm not going to get into the specifics on here due to the emotional and inflammatory posts that will inevitably follow. So if you are a pilot looking for specific information on Encore please send me a PM. I have some inside knowledge of the real deal.

[Fanblade]

Not launching with the lowest costs in the business would be like starting a banana plantation and trying to make a go of it with the 2nd or 3rd lowest costs to grow bananas and get them on the shelf in Safeway. How on earth would you be successful? For 99% of buyers, a banana is a banana is a banana. It's a commodity.

Make no mistake about it. Encore is a startup and the benchmark.....

There is a major difference between 15 years ago and today. AC can, and will if necessary, start another even lower cost benchmark and transfer the flying there. Skyregional isn't the last.

Encore will be the low cost benchmark for a fleeting moment. Remember Comair was once the benchmark.

Then what?

You see AC has the potential to respond this time unlike last. Making your millions per airframe likely a fallacy.

I predict the only ones that win will be consumers and done on the backs of employees. No different than what transpired in the US over the last two decades.

[flyer 1492]

Another TRUE story,

A friend of mine's kid was just icthing to follow in his Dad's footsteps. He had already completed his private pilot license and was looking forward to his commercial. That was until he saw the salary at WJE and SR, he has decided to stay in school and have a REAL job when he graduates university.


Did I mention he is in HIGH SCHOOL at this moment.

Smart Kid

Maybe because of these pitiful wages there will finally be a PILOT SHORTAGE.

BTW: If you look at the SR contract the pilots would have received their raises as of Jan. The Captains would have received a .46 with the First Officers getting .28/hour.

[jjj]

Teacher,

I'll wager $1000.00 with you that the first Encore FO's who complete a full calendar year without upgrading, will exceed Jazz FOs (of similar years of service) total comp exclusive of overtime.

I'll even put it in writing.

Race to the bottom? Put your money where your loud-mouth is.

JJJ

[countryhick]

JJJ

Keeping your recent statements in mind, I am curious, how willing are you or any current WJ pilot to put your $$ where your mouth is, and join the Encore ranks at the current wage structure?

[RussD]

Teacher,

I'll wager $1000.00 with you that the first Encore FO's who complete a full calendar year without upgrading, will exceed Jazz FOs (of similar years of service) total comp exclusive of overtime.

I'll even put it in writing.

Race to the bottom? Put your money where your loud-mouth is.

JJJ

Sorry for jumping in, (lots of temptation to do so). Can you elaborate on that?.. I've had first hand conversions with the WJPA exec folks and was surprised (shocked really) to hear that when they went thru their 'benchmarking' exercise they didn't seam to think that a comparison of total aggregate pilot cost was relevant. In other words, from what I understood, they were basically saying that they had 'negotiated' a competitive package based on a very, very narrow assumption of what the industry benchmark is. This would, if in fact this is what happened, produce a total pilot compensation package far, far below an 'all in' level of comparison regardless of the targeted percentile. I hope this is not the case but the folks I was talking to definitely had the 'deer in the headlights' look about them when questioned about it.

On another note, although I've never met the man, I do have business relationships with a number of people who dealt with Greg S when he was with Alaskan. By all reports he is VERY savvy in dealing with labor (pilots,,, yes you are labor too). In the (kinda crude) words of one "you suddenly find yourself naked before you realized you were on a date". That was said in a tone of respect as the Alaskan pilots are pretty darn savvy themselves when it comes to balancing the needs of their employer, members AND the Profession. I hope my friends at WestJet are up to the same, my honest impression is they are not.

[jjj]

Oh hi countryhick,

JJJ

Keeping your recent statements in mind, I am curious, how willing are you or any current WJ pilot to put your $$ where your mouth is, and join the Encore ranks at the current wage structure?

Well let's see. Today I would not join Encore. I've been flying for over 20 years - and most of those years are in the left seat of jets. I think my resume would put me near the top of the pile at Encore. We're not looking for people of my experience to fill that position.

15 years ago, (i'm guessing which would put me at an equivalent level of experience to the average Encore applicant) if there was an Encore I would have gone after it in a heartbeat.

You are trying to prove a point with an absurd question and despite that I have tried to give a fair answer. I am no longer fresh-faced and giddy from just earning my ATPL - that was a long time ago.

Yes I am saying that what is good enough for an Encore applicant who just meets the basic qualifications for the position, is not good enough for me. I have the resume to prove it.

Nice try, flame away, twist my words around, whatever.

Regards,

JJJ

[jjj]

RussD.

It's a bet. One that I may lose. The point is that we only have a few kernels of info here. We don't even have fully published wage scale for the Encore pilots - we only have the starting point. Teacher has dug in her heels in judgment and I am wagering that in the end WS will surprise the naysayers as it has done many times in the past.

The first pilots hired will essentially all be Captains due to the quick upgrade. So perhaps in year 2 or 3 of Encore, there will be pilots hired that will do a full calendar year in the right seat. By then there will likely be a pay table that goes beyond a starting point and likely a normal blocking window. It is there where I will want to do my comparison and empirically demonstrate that Encore is not the race to the bottom if total comp for an FO exclusive of OT is better than Jazz.

It's a bet - one that I may lose.

Time will tell.

As far as Greg S is concerned - we all know that he will be our greatest opponent do date in negotiations. Maybe that is why our WJPA has some tools at their disposal that were absent in years past. I hope it's enough.

Again, time will tell and that answer will be forthcoming sooner that my wager with Teacher as our contract is up in May.

Though I don't agree with my opponents on here - my opinion is of no greater value because nobody knows all the variables.

Respectfully,

JJJ

[Mig29]

Happy new years everyone!!

Just dropped by, and I noticed some of you guys are still defending Encore and even got some scientific and mathematical reasoning tossed in your equation. Businessmen think like that, and that's okay. But if you are a pilot, you just need to listen to your gut feeling and you'll know...

[BTyyj]

Did I mention he is in HIGH SCHOOL at this moment.

Most kids in high school believe they'll be earning six-figures after graduation from university. The reality is that the average Canadian with a university degree earns $48 600 after tax based on statistics from 2000, or $62 676 in 2011 with inflation.

[flyer 1492]

Sorry Frosty,

This kid has his head on straight. He would rather stay in school and collect a 60-65K starting wage than to try and survive on what the "NEW" regionals would be paying.

[ABbarnstormer]

First timer on this site, and I had to post!
I have been reading with amusement some of the posts here. "Hang your head if you take this...", "Pay is a disgrace..." , "does compare...", " doesn't compare..."

This sounds like the coffee break discussion in a flight school! Ohhh, the memories...! Trying to trick each other into not applying for the job you want, by revealing it's pitfalls!...and no disrespect, I've been there.
I still consider myself 'young', but I've been flying for over 25 years and would have taken this job in a heart beat not too many years ago!
Yes it costs a lot to be a pilot, but compare that with any other 'professional'. Calculate how many years a Doctor spends in school, how much debt he has, and then when he starts to pull in over $100k. You'd be surprised!
Ya this pay scale sucks, but most flying jobs in the big city do until you move up the ladder. We used to call it "paying our dues". You can always make decent money flying in the 5hitholes of the world, so if you would rather, go ahead.
No, I don't think there is a single happy pilot putting this gig down. If you like where you're at you wouldn't be on here bitching about a company you don't work for! I think it's the unhappy guys out there that reeeeeeeeeeally wanted Encore to be the golden goose, the big paying career that would satisfy them until they could ditch it for the mainline! Was anybody honestly looking at Encore as a permanent gig? If not, should Encore have to shell out to keep you in beer until you pull the cord? If you want to fly a shiny new airplane for a good company with a chance for promotion....apply.
If you are too 'good' for this job, then you aren't in the target pilot group. Continue down the road you're on, I pretty sure Westjet doesn't need or want you contaminating the Koolaid!

[Paia]

There are almost 1500 pilots at Jazz, most that think of regional flying as their career and have no desire to go to either mainline. We love our jobs and the people we work with. We are not overpaid. Sadly, with the wages being presented, our type of flying is being degraded. There are many many proffesional pilots at Jazz and could be at Encore. A Q400 is a beautiful plane and the type of flying is challenging. It would be nice to see our Canadian pilots paid appropiately for the job.. Not the hopes that one day they'll make a proper wage.

[J Roc]

First timer on this site, and I had to post!
I have been reading with amusement some of the posts here. "Hang your head if you take this...", "Pay is a disgrace..." , "does compare...", " doesn't compare..."

This sounds like the coffee break discussion in a flight school! Ohhh, the memories...! Trying to trick each other into not applying for the job you want, by revealing it's pitfalls!...and no disrespect, I've been there.
I still consider myself 'young', but I've been flying for over 25 years and would have taken this job in a heart beat not too many years ago!
Yes it costs a lot to be a pilot, but compare that with any other 'professional'. Calculate how many years a Doctor spends in school, how much debt he has, and then when he starts to pull in over $100k. You'd be surprised!
Ya this pay scale sucks, but most flying jobs in the big city do until you move up the ladder. We used to call it "paying our dues". You can always make decent money flying in the 5hitholes of the world, so if you would rather, go ahead.
No, I don't think there is a single happy pilot putting this gig down. If you like where you're at you wouldn't be on here bitching about a company you don't work for! I think it's the unhappy guys out there that reeeeeeeeeeally wanted Encore to be the golden goose, the big paying career that would satisfy them until they could ditch it for the mainline! Was anybody honestly looking at Encore as a permanent gig? If not, should Encore have to shell out to keep you in beer until you pull the cord? If you want to fly a shiny new airplane for a good company with a chance for promotion....apply.
If you are too 'good' for this job, then you aren't in the target pilot group. Continue down the road you're on, I pretty sure Westjet doesn't need or want you contaminating the Koolaid!

[Realitychex]

So encore is the future...the future of our careers as pilots. I do not like what I see! I used to think WJ was a fair company, and maybe a good place to work. It's probably still true for the main line pilots, but how long will it be before their wages start being cut for the sake of "staying competitive"?

We need a Canada wide Pilot union to put an end to the destruction of our profession. Like CALPA, before AC DESTROYED it...

If I had known when I started in this industry that it would turn out like this, pilots cutting each others necks to chase iron, I never would have become a pilot. The problem is I like what I do, and now it feels too late to start over. So do I stick it out and hope to be able to feed my family in ten years or jump ship to over seas where the pay is good and never see my family?

Anyone have a better solution?

All the best to my brothers and sisters out there trying to stay a float in this crazy industry. Hopefully the new year brings you good tidings!

I'm sure all the shareholders not to mention pilots at Allegiant, Spirit, and others can't wait to see costs at Canadian air carriers increase even more, thus driving even more Canadians to border airports as a result of cheaper fares.

If Canadian costs get so far out of sync with US costs causing the delta in airfares to be even more exaggerated than it already is, the Feds would be under huge pressure to allow cabotage to force Canadian carriers to get their costs in line to be able to compete on a continental-wide basis. You know where that's headed.

How do you think that would impact your career prospects?

Pandora's box was opened years ago, and way before WJ was even a glint in the eye of any of the 4 founders. There's no going back now.

[Realitychex]

Guys,

Realitychex is speaking like an entrepreneur not like a pilot. And he is absolutely right. The start of encore will accelerate change in the regional market.

Is the regional fight going to be aggressive? Oh my gosh....Yes. It will be a war AC wont take lightly this time.

Is Encore going to be the catalyst for this change? Yup

What makes you think the competition didn't take it lightly last time?

[Realitychex]

I will restrain myself from ranting as HARD as that is to do at this point. I will say one thing though. Encore like Sky Regional are an INSULT to the piloting profession for 1 simple reason. Other pilots agreed to allow this and WORSE YET, WJ pilots voted on it.

Teacher,

I agree with your entire post and the frustration you are putting out there. However, that WAWCON is the new reality. Be competitive with it or parish.

That is the message Realitychex is sending.

He is right. No he doesn't care about your family, your life, your experience, or your contribution.

He sees an opportunity and he wants to win. That means someone else loses. That simple.

AC will do their best not to lose. That leaves employees to take the hit. More specifically flight crew.

Although I don't like it. Encore and the new scope provisions in the ACPA contract will radically change the regional landscape. Encore the catalyst. Scope change at AC the response.

With Calin at the helm of AC this will get ugly. Make no mistake. He wont just sit and watch. Reaction will be as swift as he can make it happen.

Any number of pilots I sat with whilst in jumpseats in the early years know that I was on the record as saying I'd like nothing more than for WJ pilots to have amongst the highest total comp in Canada. I also was on record as saying "Rome wasn't built in a day". Fast forward a dozen years or so, and I'd say that pretty much came to fruition.

Memories are short. Make no mistake about it. The competitive reaction to WJ entering every and all markets was brutal, and it wasn't just from one competitor. It was from all. There's a good reason why WJ's advertising agency of record at the time issued WJ exec's WW2 helmets for use in the "War Room" when times got tough, and they were periodically used to remind one and all, that we were in a war. Not a fare war. A cost war. BIG difference.

The reason the outcome was what it was is because WJ's costs were significantly lower than the competitions resulting in the others losing money hand over fist whilst WJ made money. The competitive reaction was unsustainable. It was only a matter of time before they, 1) Cried uncle, or 2) Ran out of cash trying to undercut fares. A couple of carriers did both.

That's the reason why WJE is entering this battle with the lowest possible costs in order to do precisely the same thing. The difference today is WJE has the benefit of being able to feed a network of 100 narrow body jets + codeshare partners, has solid brand recognition in every domestic market they will operate out of and have judicious access to more shark repellant in the bank per asm operated than anyone else in North America.

It won't be easy, but by the same token, it won't be anywhere near as difficult as WJ's launch in 1996.

Remember: Risk / Reward.

[Stu Pidasso]

Realitychex:

There is far more to "that" story, namely the obscene tax structure Airlines in Canada operate under and the out of control Airport Authorities. Last I looked Pearson had the highest landing fees in the world, supporting the GTAA fiefdom.

It sure as hell isn't Pilot wages driving passengers to the border towns!

Unskilled labor in Canada - different story by comparison to the US.

Nice try.

[Fanblade]

Realitychex,

I may have heaped on you personally a persona that isn't fair. Your right your group treated your pilots exceptionally well. My intent isn't to diss you but rather draw attention to your words. Most were dismissing them. Yet the words are wise. Good on you for showing up here for the youth of the profession. That may not be why you showed up, but is a side benefit non the less.

The reason the outcome was what it was is because WJ's costs were significantly lower than the competitions resulting in the others losing money hand over fist whilst WJ made money. The competitive reaction was unnsustainable. It was only a matter of time before they, 1) Cried uncle, or 2) Ran out of cash trying to undercut fares. A couple of carriers did both.

That's the reason why WJE is entering this battle with the lowest possible costs in order to do precisely the same thing. The difference today is WJE has the benefit of being able to feed a network of 100 narrow body jets + codeshare partners., has solid brand recognition in every domestic they will operate out of and has more shark repellant in the bank per asm operated than anyone else in North America.

It won't be easy, but by the same token, it won't be anywhere near as difficult as WJ's launch in 1996.

Remember: Risk / Reward.

The problem I see is that your main competition isn't locked into a cost structure like it was 15 years ago. They can just start a new one to match.....or lower the cost bar even further. And they will.

Where will that cost savings come from? There isn't much left to squeeze. Only one place right?

WJ was able to be profitable, and eventually pay more ( best narrow body wages in Canada now I believe) because they were competing with a legacy model that could not adapt to match costs. Encore won't have that luxury. AC will just start another CPA.

So as we enter an era ending cross subsidization as the US did over a decade ago. Where regionals must be profitable while competing with each other or parish. Where new entrants are coming into the market 50% (total compensation) below the current levels at their major competition.

Where do you see pilot compensation going this time? I see AC matching or lowering the bar further. How then will wages recover this time at Encore? If we look south of the boarder we can see a snap shot of our future 15 years from now.

Poverty wages and the safety issues that come with it. The biggest being the brightest will avoid the profession.

Entrepreneurial spirit will push to the bottom until the bottom pushes back or government intervenes

[Realitychex]

Realitychex:

The is far more to "that" story, namely the obscene tax structure Airlines in Canada operate under and the out of control Airport Authorities. Last I looked Pearson had the highest landing fees in the world, supporting the GTAA fiefdom.

It sure as hell isn't Pilot wages driving passengers to the border towns!

Unskilled labor in Canada - different story by comparison to the US.

Nice try.

In the words of, in my opinion, the best CFO in the airline business in Canada, "it's the pennies that make the dollars".

[Stu Pidasso]

Translation:

"Take from those stupid enough to give (Pilots)" and "Put it in the right peoples pocket (Exec's)"

[Legacy]

Another TRUE story,

A friend of mine's kid was just icthing to follow in his Dad's footsteps. He had already completed his private pilot license and was looking forward to his commercial. That was until he saw the salary at WJE and SR, he has decided to stay in school and have a REAL job when he graduates university.


Did I mention he is in HIGH SCHOOL at this moment.

Smart Kid

Maybe because of these pitiful wages there will finally be a PILOT SHORTAGE.

BTW: If you look at the SR contract the pilots would have received their raises as of Jan. The Captains would have received a .46 with the First Officers getting .28/hour.

This may be one cause of a pilot shortage but IMO if the best way to cause a pilot shortage is a lack of flight instructors. Having no pilots to teach will quickly put a shortage out there. Question is how do you create a shortage of instructors. To many ME ME ME pilots out there that will do anything to get hours. But if you look at it it would be the low time guys that would benefit first from this. The first shortage would be a lack of 250 hr FOs. In theory if you can just hault all training today and no new pilots being pumped out in a year or so all the current FOs will gain experience to become captain leaving an FO spt to be filled. Thats a lot of FO spots. We just started a pilot shortage. Again in theory this would do the trick.