Recall of MEC Chair & Vice Chair

[altiplano]

Lots of apathetic management wannabes and selfish big talkers.

These guys would tank their own mother if it meant moving up a seniority number or getting that VO trip ahead of a colleague.

Shit all over the volunteers and their union and yet don't have a clue about the contract or history behind collective bargaining in this profession. Gross entitlement and manufactured outrage.

[Dry Guy]

Lots of apathetic management wannabes and selfish big talkers.

This is the exact impression that I got from speaking with them. I'm not sure what recourse we have if the company won't follow the contract and the union just makes excuses for them. If we weren't unionized the labour board would be dropping big fines and other penalties for non-payment of wages and other labour law violations.

[Fanblade]

Lots of apathetic management wannabes and selfish big talkers.

This is the exact impression that I got from speaking with them. I'm not sure what recourse we have if the company won't follow the contract and the union just makes excuses for them. If we weren't unionized the labour board would be dropping big fines and other penalties for non-payment of wages and other labour law violations.

I doubt it.

Unfortunately labor law in Canada is very lop sided. I wouldn't blame your leadership for being honest with you.

You and I must follow the contract or we can be disciplined or terminated.

The company on the other hand can do whatever it wants. The only recourse we have is grievance. Which means often a year or two before they experience any consequences if at all.

They could fire me today for no reason. It wouldn't matter. Two years from now I would get my job back. No skin off their teeth at all other than paying back wages. They wouldn't care if they thought it served them a purpose.

You work for a company that exploits this imbalance. They do it deliberately. Some of the issues are simply they screwed up. Often times though they are deliberately using the imbalance to send a message, defer compliance with something they don't want to do, or outright trying to evade intent of contract language. It's been this way for nearly 30 years. Hollis Harris was the last CEO that respected us.

They do this because they have no respect for you or the contract and they know there is nothing we can do about it except grieve between contracts. They are trying to open holes in your CA to exploit at the next bargaining. They are trying to show you and I who's the boss. They know it impacts Unity because it demonstrates who has the real power between negotiations. It's a control maneuver. Showing you who is boss. Trying to drive apathy. They want you to give up. They never stop negotiating. Even if that means they use grievance as an ends to a means.

Your Union isn't apathetic. They work in an environment of lopsided labor laws and with a company more than willing to exploit them.

If you were non union it would be even worse and take even longer to get a satisfactory remedy.

Unfortunately this is a product of managements attitude towards its work force. Not just us either. All labor.

[altiplano]

Lots of apathetic management wannabes and selfish big talkers.

This is the exact impression that I got from speaking with them. I'm not sure what recourse we have if the company won't follow the contract and the union just makes excuses for them. If we weren't unionized the labour board would be dropping big fines and other penalties for non-payment of wages and other labour law violations.

You're reading my comment backwards.

There are multiple reps daily representing and educating pilots whose main problem is their own lack of contract knowledge or screw up. Not enough for some of these members though so they turn the gun inwards and piss on their own interests, wear the management lanyard, disengage from their union

The fact is that the number of grievances ongoing, policy and individual, are over a hundred.

Is it all perfect? Surely not. But it would be better if more if the membership took a bigger role and some responsibility for themselves. Fly your block, follow the contract, that's it... It's not enough to go along with it all while sucking up all the VO you can and then suddenly act all aggrieved when something doesn't go your way and you send a vague DART and don't get the response you want from a volunteer busy out flying his own block.

If you weren't unionized you wouldn't have a contract. The labour board isn't doing shit for you.

[PeakLeverage]

Pretty hard to fly a contract that takes a labour lawyer to interpret.

This contract is a pile of shit. We all know it.

Pay went up. Sure. Not so much for us new hires though.

It's almost by design no one knows how to "fly the contract" and then you get some sarcastic one word DART response. Pretty brutal representation.

[BillytheKid]

Air Canada pilots negotiating strategy is to bargain off of Flair?! Aren't they a low cost carrier??

[Hangry]

Negotiations resume next year. A great deal of the current contract is yet to be implemented. This is nothing short of a disaster for the union. Can totally understand why some pilots have lost faith.

[Fanblade]

Negotiations resume next year. A great deal of the current contract is yet to be implemented. This is nothing short of a disaster for the union. Can totally understand why some pilots have lost faith.

It's deliberate. That is what the company wants you to do. Give up and lose the faith. Stop fighting.

[daedalusx]

Negotiations resume next year. A great deal of the current contract is yet to be implemented. This is nothing short of a disaster for the union. Can totally understand why some pilots have lost faith.

It's deliberate. That is what the company wants you to do. Give up and lose the faith. Stop fighting.

The way to fight back is to use your leverage and stop picking up OT but the pussies that complains the loudest can’t help themselves because they bought a new boat or truck on credit with money that they didn’t have.

[Fanblade]

It's almost by design no one knows how to "fly the contract"

That is actually a very insightful comment for someone new to AC.

Your right that is exactly what it is designed to do.

The company never stops negotiating. Ever. This is their strategy. Use the lopsided labor laws to their advantage to never stop attacking and or degrading collective agreements.

First step use a creative interpretation to avoid implementation or alter something in the contract.

Second step let the union grieve it. That will take a year or two. In the mean time you have delayed implementation of something you agreed to do but don't want to do. Probably saved some money as well.

Step three. Hopefully you won even incremental changes to the original intent of what was negotiated. If not. Worse case you implement what you originally agreed too one to two years later.

Step four. Write the grievance clarification into the contract and muddy the section.

Step 5. Do this 100's of times.

Voila. You have a contract no one can fly too, very few completely understand and you probably saved millions.

We simplifed the contract in 2010. It didn't go well. The company simply seized the opportunity to start creative interpretations on things that had already been settled through grience. Meaning they put us through the ringer twice on a single issue.

We don't work for a company that wants to have good employee relations. They don't see the value in it. They see more value in a relentless attack on your contract, QOF and working conditions. A relentless attack on their employees willingness to fight back. People in upper management (pilots included) are paid very well to conduct this relentless attack. It never ends.

This isn't just us. It's every labor group. ALPA commented that they haven't seen this poor of a employee/employer relationship since United in the 1980's

[thepoors]

Doesn't help we've hardly heard a peep from the new MEC chair with anything substantive since he was introduced. I couldn't even tell you the guy's name off the top of my head.

Hundreds of open grievances. Hundreds of articles yet to be implemented. Contract still riddled with loopholes. Company getting away with whatever it wants. Where is our representation? If you want the membership to have faith, there has to be something in the way of results and solutions for us to go off of. If that means a revamp of the grievance system, then fucking do it. There has to be accountability and contract enforcement that doesn't take years and the company can happily exploit.

Work = force x distance. If you're putting in a bunch of effort and not actually getting anywhere, you're not doing any real work...

[AllthatJazz]

Air Canada pilots don't even have that shitty contract implemented

And are relying on Flair for their next round?

What is this SPSC that FanBoyBlade keeps spewing on about

[Fanblade]

Hundreds of open grievances. Hundreds of articles yet to be implemented. Contract still riddled with loopholes. Company getting away with whatever it wants. Where is our representation? If you want the membership to have faith, there has to be something in the way of results and solutions for us to go off of. If that means a revamp of the grievance system, then fucking do it. There has to be accountability and contract enforcement.

Work = force x distance. If you're putting in a bunch of effort and not actually getting anywhere, you're not doing any real work...

That is exactly the mindset the company wants you to adopt. Get so frustrated that you throw your hands in the air and give up.

How do you suggest ALPA revamp a grievance system that is rooted in labor law?

We don't make the law. We have no choice but to work within it.

[flyingcanuck]

It's almost by design no one knows how to "fly the contract"

That is actually a very insightful comment for someone new to AC.

Your right that is exactly what it is designed to do.

The company never stops negotiating. Ever. This is their strategy. Use the lopsided labor laws to their advantage to never stop attacking and or degrading collective agreements.

First step use a creative interpretation to avoid implementation or alter something in the contract.

Second step let the union grieve it. That will take a year or two. In the mean time you have delayed implementation of something you agreed to do but don't want to do. Probably saved some money as well.

Step three. Hopefully you won even incremental changes to the original intent of what was negotiated. If not. Worse case you implement what you originally agreed too one to two years later.

Step four. Write the grievance clarification into the contract and muddy the section.

Step 5. Do this 100's of times.

Voila. You have a contract no one can fly too, very few completely understand and you probably saved millions.

We simplifed the contract in 2010. It didn't go well. The company simply seized the opportunity to start creative interpretations on things that had already been settled through grience. Meaning they put us through the ringer twice on a single issue.

We don't work for a company that wants to have good employee relations. They don't see the value in it. They see more value in a relentless attack on your contract, QOF and working conditions. A relentless attack on their employees willingness to fight back. People in upper management (pilots included) are paid very well to conduct this relentless attack. It never ends.

This isn't just us. It's every labor group. ALPA commented that they haven't seen this poor of a employee/employer relationship since United in the 1980's

Well said!

[Hangry]

AC pilots couldn’t even just fly their blocks during negots. Good luck with that ever happening.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Well at least we got those improved displacements for the reps so they can do more VO

[altiplano]

Jesus Christ... Listen to all the hapless cry babies...

"The contract is too hard"
"I don't even know who the MEC chair is"
"Oooh the grievance process is unfair"
"The rep gave me a one word answer instead of holding my hand"
"The company is dragging their feet and I blame the union for it"
"I want a better contract and I want someone else to get it for me"


You want results? It's time to grow up, men.

[PeakLeverage]

Jesus Christ... Listen to all the hapless cry babies...

"The contract is too hard"
"I don't even know who the MEC chair is"
"Oooh the grievance process is unfair"
"The rep gave me a one word answer instead of holding my hand"
"The company is dragging their feet and I blame the union for it"
"I want a better contract and I want someone else to get it for me"


You want results? It's time to grow up, men.

By voting 'Yes' and giving away a bonus even ACPA could negotiate?

And then bullying skeptics of how this doesn't add up?

[The Brantford Boomer]

IT'S CALLED IN TITLEMENT. I ONCE DIDN'T GET PAID FOR 2 YEARS. I NOTICED IT WHEN I WAS BUYING MY THIRD RENTAL PROPERTY AND THE CHEQUE BOUNCED. I WAS SO EMBARRASSED I COULDN'T SHOW MY FACE AT THE MARINA FOR MONTHS.

[thepoors]

You want results? It's time to grow up, men.

What does that even mean? ...According to you we're not allowed to criticize a union that isn't producing results.

What are we supposed to do? Volunteer? To join the little LEC/MEC clubs that don't really want anyone stirring things up? Because they live in fear of the big bad company. Who really needs to grow up?

[ClearedDirect]

You want results? It's time to grow up, men.

What does that even mean? ...According to you we're not allowed to criticize a union that isn't producing results.

What are we supposed to do? Volunteer? To join the little LEC/MEC clubs that don't really want anyone stirring things up? Because they live in fear of the big bad company. Who really needs to grow up?

How do you even join the little LEC/MEC Club?

Show them your "I voted yes to this mess" card?

Then do a secret little handshake and then chow on some steak dinner?

[Bede]

I couldn't even tell you the guy's name off the top of my head.

This comment speaks volumes. You didn't like the old chair. You don't even care enough to even know the name of the new chair.

Imagine if AC was stocked with 5500 pilots just like you- unwilling to step up, unwilling to show up to meetings. What kind of results would you expect?

[thepoors]

I couldn't even tell you the guy's name off the top of my head.

This comment speaks volumes. You didn't like the old chair. You don't even care enough to even know the name of the new chair.

Imagine if AC was stocked with 5500 pilots just like you- unwilling to step up, unwilling to show up to meetings. What kind of results would you expect?

The point is I shouldn't have to go digging to find out who the person representing 5500 pilots is. If they were doing their job properly they would be visible and vocal.

This whole "step-up" fallacy is tired man. Like I said, the union has their little clubs and they don't want people sticking their nose in. Ultimately, they're happy to sit with the status quo rather than "poking the bear."

[altiplano]

By voting 'Yes' and giving away a bonus even ACPA could negotiate?

And then bullying skeptics of how this doesn't add up?

Full circle... This type of shit is all you seem to grasp at. They didn't give it away. They used it to increase the permanent, guaranteed wage gains.

IT'S CALLED IN TITLEMENT. I ONCE DIDN'T GET PAID FOR 2 YEARS. I NOTICED IT WHEN I WAS BUYING MY THIRD RENTAL PROPERTY AND THE CHEQUE BOUNCED. I WAS SO EMBARRASSED I COULDN'T SHOW MY FACE AT THE MARINA FOR MONTHS.

I'm not certain, but I don't see any boomers in the MEC/LEC anymore... We must be purging the last handful over the next few years...

You want results? It's time to grow up, men.

What does that even mean? ...According to you we're not allowed to criticize a union that isn't producing results.

What are we supposed to do? Volunteer? To join the little LEC/MEC clubs that don't really want anyone stirring things up? Because they live in fear of the big bad company. Who really needs to grow up?

Yeah. I know it's hard to stop crying. But you need to turn your guns outward. I was a solid No voter, but it's done, and because of people like you I'm glad the vote passed because your weakness and inability to refocus on what's ahead, realize who the real opponent is, get behind where your association needs support hurts us all.

Fact is that CA1 wasn't everything I wanted to see, but it was a major gain, your ilks failure to grasp that there was any good at all makes you look like a fool. and it's done, the MEC chairs were shuffled, so take the win and move forward to the next win.

The company is getting ready, yeah they're the big bad company. Haven't you figured that out yet? And they're already digging in against us, they don't want us to get anything next time. So grow up and start acting like you get the plot. Stop defaming the guys working on your behalf that actually are producing results. Look at the recent off cycle A11 gains, the willingness to grieve overreach by the company.

[altiplano]

I couldn't even tell you the guy's name off the top of my head.

This comment speaks volumes. You didn't like the old chair. You don't even care enough to even know the name of the new chair.

Imagine if AC was stocked with 5500 pilots just like you- unwilling to step up, unwilling to show up to meetings. What kind of results would you expect?

The point is I shouldn't have to go digging to find out who the person representing 5500 pilots is. If they were doing their job properly they would be visible and vocal.

This whole "step-up" fallacy is tired man. Like I said, the union has their little clubs and they don't want people sticking their nose in. Ultimately, they're happy with to sit with the status quo rather than "poking the bear."

Bullshit. You don't have to go digging. There was a damn good newsletter earlier this month. You have an App that gives you access to all of that at your finger tips. What do you want? Bed time stories every night?

Stepping up is not just direct volunteering, but moving forward, wearing your lanyard and pin, following the contract, being engaged and showing support for the cause, stop pissing all over everyone.

Representation here over the last couple years is far and away the best I've ever seen at AC. And yeah, even though I thought we should have done differently with CA1, that there were screw ups, it's not even close. And if we want CA2 to get the rest we had all better get on board. Standing by the tracks bitching hurts your own interests.