Emirates after AC

[Dias]

8 resignations on today's bid. Almost all juniors. What is going on kool-aid krew?

[twa22]

8 resignations on today's bid. Almost all juniors. What is going on kool-aid krew?

Now that, that is impressive, and clearly not in a good way... i'd be curious to know if there has ever been that many in a month in recent times (last 10-15 years)

What's even more curious, where do these pilots go during these times (in Canada that is)? Only place that I can honestly think of is Porter considering their expansion plans

[Hangry]

The term “resign” could be a mercy. Used very loosely.

[Blueontop]

3 out of 8 were NB CA so not extremely “junior”. Doubt 3 would have been in the situation that to save face they were given the option to “resign.”

It would seem only the bottom 2 would be so junior that they would still be on probation.

So 6 out 8 would have been safely out of probation.

[twa22]

3 out of 8 were NB CA so not extremely “junior”. Doubt 3 would have been in the situation that to save face they were given the option to “resign.”

It would seem only the bottom 2 would be so junior that they would still be on probation.

So 6 out 8 would have been safely out of probation.

For the sake of argument, say of the 8, those 6 actually resigned on their own accord, and 3 were NB CA, I think that speaks volumes... Giving up left seat at AC isn't something you do lightly, considering YR1 on the 220 is around 275 an hour now

[altiplano]

One of the probation pilots mentioned was ex RCAF Snowbird... don't think it was a probation issue here but moving to another opportunity, lots of demand right now for military experienced guys and airline life isn't suited to everyone - especially when you are at the bottom of a list of 6000+.

I believe a few are gone to US majors, a couple to overseas majors, a couple were commuting to Canada from overseas - Asia/UK, that gets old, I believe at least one decided they were too old to be junior and went back to a smaller airline CA seat.

[twa22]

One of the probation pilots mentioned was ex RCAF Snowbird... don't think it was a probation issue here but moving to another opportunity, lots of demand right now for military experienced guys and airline life isn't suited to everyone - especially when you are at the bottom of a list of 6000+.

I believe a few are gone to US majors, a couple to overseas majors, a couple were commuting to Canada from overseas - Asia/UK, that gets old, I believe at least one decided they were too old to be junior and went back to a smaller airline CA seat.

So here's the thing, it's a very tiny sample size. 8 pilots of 6000 is by no means an indication of the general consensus, but... It just goes to prove a point about this very thread!!!

Remember, before you get all worked up, I already said this is a super small sample size, BUT IF you have guys that IF given the proper opportunity, they will leave AC, and I'm sure there are alot of those folks at AC right now who would leave, but can't for various reasons

[altiplano]

Just giving some context from what I can glean is all.

US major and young enough, no brainer.
Commuting from overseas, that sucks.
Not into airline life, it is what it is.
Go be a CA instead of an FO, sure.

[twa22]

Just giving some context from what I can glean is all.

US major and young enough, no brainer.
Commuting from overseas, that sucks.
Not into airline life, it is what it is.
Go be a CA instead of an FO, sure.

Fair and valid, but again, it still goes to prove a point that, no one should be looking to leave a legacy airline, yet here we are still having this discussion, and the point is being proven

1. Us major? We all know that if we had easy access, probably half the Canadian pilot workforce would be gone
2. Commuting from overseas - The more I talk to fellow pilots, the more and more I hear of commuters from far flung places, and I have actually met a few myself... but the question is, why? Well the answer seems to be a lot more simple then you think
3. Not into the airline life - well this one I can't say much, to each their own
4. Go be a CA instead of FO - Now this one is interesting, because to do that, you need a fair amount of hours for DEC anywhere overseas, so unless these junior hires had 6000 plus hours, I doubt that one. I'm willing to bet the CAs who left actually took right seat somewhere in hopes of a fast upgrade (or if the US then for sure right seat if a major). Again, goes back to the whole point of this thread. AC clearly is not the end all be all, and neither is Canada, anymore, unfortunately...

[altiplano]

Just giving some context from what I can glean is all.

US major and young enough, no brainer.
Commuting from overseas, that sucks.
Not into airline life, it is what it is.
Go be a CA instead of an FO, sure.

Fair and valid, but again, it still goes to prove a point that, no one should be looking to leave a legacy airline, yet here we are still having this discussion, and the point is being proven

1. Us major? We all know that if we had easy access, probably half the Canadian pilot workforce would be gone
2. Commuting from overseas - The more I talk to fellow pilots, the more and more I hear of commuters from far flung places, and I have actually met a few myself... but the question is, why? Well the answer seems to be a lot more simple then you think
3. Not into the airline life - well this one I can't say much, to each their own
4. Go be a CA instead of FO - Now this one is interesting, because to do that, you need a fair amount of hours for DEC anywhere overseas, so unless these junior hires had 6000 plus hours, I doubt that one. I'm willing to bet the CAs who left actually took right seat somewhere in hopes of a fast upgrade (or if the US then for sure right seat if a major). Again, goes back to the whole point of this thread. AC clearly is not the end all be all, and neither is Canada, anymore, unfortunately...

1 - If you're 45 or under or not a CA/ junior here and can get US status, US majors are an easy choice. Not just for pay but for taxes.

2 - It's crazy how many we have commuting here from overseas, all over Europe and Asia and even a few other far flung corners... I don't know how/why they do it, but they have Canadians status and it's maybe a stepping stone or experience opportunity until they can get on with an airline closer to where they want to be. Or maybe they make the calculation that Canada isn't what they're looking for.

4 - We have guys coming here, CAs from overseas, CAs from less stable domestic airlines, and lots of them are used to running their own show and don't want to put up with the bullshit around this place. It's easier to not put up with bullshit when you're a CA here. And when you're starting up a list of 6000 as a junior FO and there's not a lot of rapid movement at present, you say, maybe I'm just getting to old for this. I get it, go somewhere with a smaller flight department, go be a CA again, maybe go corporate, maybe live where you want to live, whatever. Everyone has their own priorities to weight and that's OK... AC isn't the end all be all for everyone and every situation. Canada is certainly having major challenges at this point as the economy recedes, currency devalues, prices continue to rise, tax dollars are blown out the door... What will the future bring? What will the recovery on the getting look like? When will it come? You'll need a fortune teller on that unfortunately.

Back to the start of it though... if we ignore doom forecasts here and there and things we can't control... if you're a young man and the choice is go overseas only to come back in 10 years and start at the bottom at AC? If you want to live in this country? You would have been better positioned long term to do your time, get your seniority number and establish in this country. You would spend more time at the top of this list in the higher positions.

A pilot that was hired at AC 10 years ago would probably be about s/n 2200 today, an upper mid pack 320 CA, possibly 767 CA even, probably looking at 10-20 years in the big Boeings. Versus s/n 6000 for the returning overseas new hire. That's a major discrepancy in outlook for these guys. Granted record hiring, but the point remains.

Yeah, you're going to keep more money in overseas jurisdictions like UAE, if that's where you want to be, if that's where you want to stay, if the conditions of working there are OK with you, you should go. But if you want to live here, have family here, don't want to work for a totalitarian regime, or don't want to live in the desert? You're better to put your time in what historically has been the best career earning and most stable position in this country.

[twa22]

Just giving some context from what I can glean is all.

US major and young enough, no brainer.
Commuting from overseas, that sucks.
Not into airline life, it is what it is.
Go be a CA instead of an FO, sure.

Fair and valid, but again, it still goes to prove a point that, no one should be looking to leave a legacy airline, yet here we are still having this discussion, and the point is being proven

1. Us major? We all know that if we had easy access, probably half the Canadian pilot workforce would be gone
2. Commuting from overseas - The more I talk to fellow pilots, the more and more I hear of commuters from far flung places, and I have actually met a few myself... but the question is, why? Well the answer seems to be a lot more simple then you think
3. Not into the airline life - well this one I can't say much, to each their own
4. Go be a CA instead of FO - Now this one is interesting, because to do that, you need a fair amount of hours for DEC anywhere overseas, so unless these junior hires had 6000 plus hours, I doubt that one. I'm willing to bet the CAs who left actually took right seat somewhere in hopes of a fast upgrade (or if the US then for sure right seat if a major). Again, goes back to the whole point of this thread. AC clearly is not the end all be all, and neither is Canada, anymore, unfortunately...

1 - If you're 45 or under or not a CA/ junior here and can get US status, US majors are an easy choice. Not just for pay but for taxes.

2 - It's crazy how many we have commuting here from overseas, all over Europe and Asia and even a few other far flung corners... I don't know how/why they do it, but they have Canadians status and it's maybe a stepping stone or experience opportunity until they can get on with an airline closer to where they want to be. Or maybe they make the calculation that Canada isn't what they're looking for.

4 - We have guys coming here, CAs from overseas, CAs from less stable domestic airlines, and lots of them are used to running their own show and don't want to put up with the bullshit around this place. It's easier to not put up with bullshit when you're a CA here. And when you're starting up a list of 6000 as a junior FO and there's not a lot of rapid movement at present, you say, maybe I'm just getting to old for this. I get it, go somewhere with a smaller flight department, go be a CA again, maybe go corporate, maybe live where you want to live, whatever. Everyone has their own priorities to weight and that's OK... AC isn't the end all be all for everyone and every situation. Canada is certainly having major challenges at this point as the economy recedes, currency devalues, prices continue to rise, tax dollars are blown out the door... What will the future bring? What will the recovery on the getting look like? When will it come? You'll need a fortune teller on that unfortunately.

Back to the start of it though... if we ignore doom forecasts here and there and things we can't control... if you're a young man and the choice is go overseas only to come back in 10 years and start at the bottom at AC? If you want to live in this country? You would have been better positioned long term to do your time, get your seniority number and establish in this country. You would spend more time at the top of this list in the higher positions.

A pilot that was hired at AC 10 years ago would probably be about s/n 2200 today, an upper mid pack 320 CA, possibly 767 CA even, probably looking at 10-20 years in the big Boeings. Versus s/n 6000 for the returning overseas new hire. That's a major discrepancy in outlook for these guys. Granted record hiring, but the point remains.

Yeah, you're going to keep more money in overseas jurisdictions like UAE, if that's where you want to be, if that's where you want to stay, if the conditions of working there are OK with you, you should go. But if you want to live here, have family here, don't want to work for a totalitarian regime, or don't want to live in the desert? You're better to put your time in what historically has been the best career earning and most stable position in this country.

You see, that's the problem, and you yourself just said it. The landscape is so, vastly different in this country that you really do need a fortunate teller... or maybe you don't, because nothing looks like things are pointing in the right direction anytime soon. I get it, and I get what you're saying if someone wanted to come back in 10 years, but at this point, i'm not so sure that even if you want to come back in 10 years if you leave today, you won't be better off in the long run, and I think that's what it boils down to. The landscape in the entire world has changed so much ever since covid, that the right choice actually isn't as obvious as it was 10 years ago. You might not agree with that, but ask anyone under 35, and most will probably agree, and are looking for an out

[altiplano]

For sure. Nobody knows what will happen, same goes for outside of this country. There is lots of uncertainty in all jurisdictions fed by economics and geopolitics and I think amplified through media. As tough as it is here in many respects, I'm not counting Canada out though.

If you don't want to live here that's a whole other thing. If you don't think you can figure out how to make it here. If you want to live in Dubai for the next 25 years and you believe they will have you for that whole time, that they won't cancel your visa and give you 30 days to leave in the next downturn or world event, have at 'er.

But that wasn't what the original post was. It was should I go overseas for 10 years and come back and start again or just start now and I think the answer that will be best for the majority is to start now. That's based on what we know today and have seen historically. Who really knows though... fortune teller stuff. And it's a different calculation for everyone. Best thing really is to start dating an American girl and get married ASAP.

[twa22]

For sure. Nobody knows what will happen, same goes for outside of this country. There is lots of uncertainty in all jurisdictions fed by economics and geopolitics and I think amplified through media. As tough as it is here in many respects, I'm not counting Canada out though.

If you don't want to live here that's a whole other thing. If you don't think you can figure out how to make it here. If you want to live in Dubai for the next 25 years and you believe they will have you for that whole time, that they won't cancel your visa and give you 30 days to leave in the next downturn or world event, have at 'er.

But that wasn't what the original post was. It was should I go overseas for 10 years and come back and start again or just start now and I think the answer that will be best for the majority is to start now. That's based on what we know today and have seen historically. Who really knows though... fortune teller stuff. And it's a different calculation for everyone. Best thing really is to start dating an American girl and get married ASAP.

Yea see that's where I think this whole long thread diverged from, we're just going in circles again. I agree with some of your minor points, but the mindsets are completely different and no matter which way we divulge into it, we end up at the same point

[altiplano]

For sure. Nobody knows what will happen, same goes for outside of this country. There is lots of uncertainty in all jurisdictions fed by economics and geopolitics and I think amplified through media. As tough as it is here in many respects, I'm not counting Canada out though.

If you don't want to live here that's a whole other thing. If you don't think you can figure out how to make it here. If you want to live in Dubai for the next 25 years and you believe they will have you for that whole time, that they won't cancel your visa and give you 30 days to leave in the next downturn or world event, have at 'er.

But that wasn't what the original post was. It was should I go overseas for 10 years and come back and start again or just start now and I think the answer that will be best for the majority is to start now. That's based on what we know today and have seen historically. Who really knows though... fortune teller stuff. And it's a different calculation for everyone. Best thing really is to start dating an American girl and get married ASAP.

Yea see that's where I think this whole long thread diverged from, we're just going in circles again. I agree with some of your minor points, but the mindsets are completely different and no matter which way we divulge into it, we end up at the same point

I'm not sure what you mean?

It's a different calculation for everyone. Everyone has different priorities. Do you disagree with that?

[altiplano]

I won't feed the troll any longer. Good luck with your career.

@twa - genuine question in my earlier post... It's a different calculation for everyone and their priorities. I acknowledge there is a mindset that either doesn't have an attachment here or it appeals to the living situation/lifestyle they want and it's the most logical choice and that's OK.

But again circling back to the original post, the question was 10 years and come back and try to establish then or establish now, and I don't think it is the best choice for most, obviously not all. In a business where seniority carries so much value, getting it early tends to pay off in the long run.

[flying4dollars]

Just giving some context from what I can glean is all.

US major and young enough, no brainer.
Commuting from overseas, that sucks.
Not into airline life, it is what it is.
Go be a CA instead of an FO, sure.

no one should be looking to leave a legacy airline

Isn't Emirates a legacy airline? Cathay? Qatar? Etihad? You'd be amazed at how many have left. Yet, it happens.

AC clearly is not the end all be all, and neither is Canada, anymore, unfortunately...

Sad but true, I agree, though Emirates isn't the end all be all either. Yes they are better in many ways and they are also a lot worse in others. Many factors that support AC being the better choice and there are many factors that support Emirates being the better. The point, which I made earlier is that it IS subjective. One isn't the answer over the other for everyone, but some.

[twa22]

I won't feed the troll any longer. Good luck with your career.

@twa - genuine question in my earlier post... It's a different calculation for everyone and their priorities. I acknowledge there is a mindset that either doesn't have an attachment here or it appeals to the living situation/lifestyle they want and it's the most logical choice and that's OK.

But again circling back to the original post, the question was 10 years and come back and try to establish then or establish now, and I don't think it is the best choice for most, obviously not all. In a business where seniority carries so much value, getting it early tends to pay off in the long run.

Unfortunately you're right because of the way the system in North America is setup on seniority... That said, I honestly think someone is better off going abroad, just in the current climate we live in, especially under 30. If you're smart with your money, you are most likely getting ahead by going abroad, be it the sandbox or elsewhere, even if you come back after 10 years. For the sake of argument, assuming you can save let's say, 700k in 10 years, even if you come back and start bottom of the list, monetarily, you should be more then fine to come back, purely from a monetary perspective. I might be completely wrong, but there's guys who even after getting layed off during covid, still went back when hiring picked up in the sandbox...

[twa22]

Just giving some context from what I can glean is all.

US major and young enough, no brainer.
Commuting from overseas, that sucks.
Not into airline life, it is what it is.
Go be a CA instead of an FO, sure.

no one should be looking to leave a legacy airline

Isn't Emirates a legacy airline? Cathay? Qatar? Etihad? You'd be amazed at how many have left. Yet, it happens.

AC clearly is not the end all be all, and neither is Canada, anymore, unfortunately...

Sad but true, I agree, though Emirates isn't the end all be all either. Yes they are better in many ways and they are also a lot worse in others. Many factors that support AC being the better choice and there are many factors that support Emirates being the better. The point, which I made earlier is that it IS subjective. One isn't the answer over the other for everyone, but some.

They are legacies, you are not wrong there, albeit maybe the term legacy should be looked at with caveats, region dependent.

But in the end yes it is to a large degree, subjective, and they all have their downsides. Like altiplano said, every individuals circumstances is different, and like I told him, I do think to a large degree one is better off as an expat, if under 30, heck I'll say even under 35, but that's just my opinion at the end of the day

[Eric Janson]

They are legacies, you are not wrong there, albeit maybe the term legacy should be looked at with caveats, region dependent.

But in the end yes it is to a large degree, subjective, and they all have their downsides. Like altiplano said, every individuals circumstances is different, and like I told him, I do think to a large degree one is better off as an expat, if under 30, heck I'll say even under 35, but that's just my opinion at the end of the day

Most Expat jobs are for experienced Type Rated Captains - people under 35 generally do not have these qualifications.

There are companies that hire FO - Emirates being one. It's a gamble - promotion to Captain is not guaranteed.

Instead of Expat - how about:-

-Mercenary.
or
-Prostitute.

Both are a more accurate description of the World you are joining - Jmho.

I keep having to say this - Do not give up a stable job in your home country to become an Expat.

I became Expat not by choice but because my Airline went bankrupt - most other Expats I worked with came from similar backgrounds. I made it work because I had no other choice. I had 8 very interesting and enjoyable years.

Reading this thread it is obvious some posters have never been to Dubai and have no clue.

[MorePlates]

I keep having to say this - Do not listen to the opinions of people who were kicked on their asses out of their expat jobs.

You deserve it if you move to a small flag carrier in Asia and don’t plan for it to happen sooner or later.

But you know what? I think these posters are right, AC is where it’s at.

Dubai? 40–45°C, 24/7, 12 months a year. How will you handle it? Come to Vancouver/Toronto, 20°C year-round, only two months of rain/snow.

Dubai? Totalitarian regime. Come here instead, don’t listen to a lot of those “67% yes” clowns who were terrified the government would step in if they went on strike. It’s a democratic country.

Dubai? Very strict laws, you might find yourself in jail the day after you get there. Come to Vancouver/Toronto, very relaxed laws, so relaxed you sometimes question if you even have laws here.

CLOWNS

[thepoors]

I think one factor being missed here is that all the sandbox airlines have a very stringent hiring process. Just because you decide you want to go to Emirates or Etihad doesn't mean you'll make the cut. You're competing with highly experienced pilots from all over the world. And from what I've heard it often takes multiple attempts for those that end up being successful. Not to mention all the internal politics and racial/cultural/religious prejudices that prevail in that part of the world. It's a completely different ballgame, AC DEI hires need not apply.

[Tbayer2021]

Gotta love how they just can't wrap their minds around pilots quitting AC and say they must have been fired or "allowed to quit". Truly fascinating seeing Stockholm syndrome at work.

[twa22]

They are legacies, you are not wrong there, albeit maybe the term legacy should be looked at with caveats, region dependent.

But in the end yes it is to a large degree, subjective, and they all have their downsides. Like altiplano said, every individuals circumstances is different, and like I told him, I do think to a large degree one is better off as an expat, if under 30, heck I'll say even under 35, but that's just my opinion at the end of the day

Most Expat jobs are for experienced Type Rated Captains - people under 35 generally do not have these qualifications.

There are companies that hire FO - Emirates being one. It's a gamble - promotion to Captain is not guaranteed.

Instead of Expat - how about:-

-Mercenary.
or
-Prostitute.

Both are a more accurate description of the World you are joining - Jmho.

I keep having to say this - Do not give up a stable job in your home country to become an Expat.

I became Expat not by choice but because my Airline went bankrupt - most other Expats I worked with came from similar backgrounds. I made it work because I had no other choice. I had 8 very interesting and enjoyable years.

Reading this thread it is obvious some posters have never been to Dubai and have no clue.

That's YOUR experience... I know what the ME is, i've been, i've seen, I have friends there... some who left legacies in Europe, and they don't regret it. Did I ever paint the expat life as rosy and full of nothing but positives? No, I didn't

And lots of expat companies hire FOs, what are you talking about? Go look at job postings, and not just in the sandbox...

[altiplano]

Gotta love how they just can't wrap their minds around pilots quitting AC and say they must have been fired or "allowed to quit". Truly fascinating seeing Stockholm syndrome at work.

Maybe a few from time to time will be framed that way, but AC had no problem listing people that were fired as such... used to be "Article ..." - now I think they leave that and some other reasons for moving to inactive blank so as not violate privacy.

[Old fella]

Gotta love how they just can't wrap their minds around pilots quitting AC and say they must have been fired or "allowed to quit". Truly fascinating seeing Stockholm syndrome at work.

Maybe a few from time to time will be framed that way, but AC had no problem listing people that were fired as such... used to be "Article ..." - now I think they leave that and some other reasons for moving to inactive blank so as not violate privacy.

Didn’t AC dismiss a B787 FO couple yrs back for what they considered unacceptable Social Media interaction on the Israel/Gaza situation. They(AC) certainly didn’t hesitate to publicly state the pilot in question no longer works for the Company..