New TA reached!

[Mig29]

Listening to the road show all I heard is fear.

-Fear of the gov't stepping in and dictating pension changes
-Fear Calin would just start up a LCC if we didn't capitulate.
-Fear that if we don't give 100's of million in productivity concessions AC will fail.

Yes they admitted the contract is concessionary. They say we have to, or there will be no future.

Most depressing aviation experience of my life.

Oldest trick in the book - fear. What is Calin's favourite line? "Nothing focuses a man's mind more than showing him his own coffin." Calin has proven to be a very adept coffin maker. And does this deal come with iron clad guarantees? No. The pension may fail, and so might the company someday, but not today.

There is no doubt that there is a need for some degree of change at AC, but is this really the only answer? The corporation will live on, and the pilots will live in infamy (and some in agony). There is nothing even remotely close to this result being demonstrated at the legacy carriers in the US. Why is it that AC must embark on this path?

AC is not in imminent danger of another CCAA filing. Nor is AC sailing in smooth waters. The solution seems excessive to the perceived (manufactured?) crisis, and the punishment certainly does not appear to fit the crime. And the MEC/NC appear resigned to this fate.

Start from the beginning, start with a clean slate, and start with clear direction from the membership about where they are willing to go. Some of the proposed changes may survive, but at least when you vote yes you will be voting in a plan that you had a hand in drafting and that you believe in. Do you believe in this plan?

Many pilots have worked for years trying to transform their 'jobs' into 'careers' yet now it seems like the AC pilots are turning a career into just another job. Sad.

THANK YOU RUDDER!!!!

I'm just scrolling though some of these posts and I can't believe how sad some of you guys are!! Yeah I said it and I got more in the bag, but I won't waste my time! It seems some of you are truly just heavy metal geeks who can only talk about my big jets and stare at the PFD screens, while intermittently bragging about your pay cheques or if you are in the bottom category, how much you get taxed!! No wonder CR is able to throw these curve balls at you how ever he feels like!! Fear this, end of AC that....I'm surprised he didn't toss in the Mayan 2012 calendar to you if you don't agree on this TA!!!!
Read the thread one or two posts below this one and it say "Captains in NA are losing authority" No way, eh??? Really!!!! I think the groomers will start to piss on us soon if we don't start putting down our foot here! You know how many years I have been hearing AC is going under!! Over 10 in my case and it never changes when come negotiations!!! But few months ago buddy CR tossed $500 bonuses to EVERY employee at AC for doing a great job and suddenly now Gaddafi and oil fear mongering has gotten to everyone!

WAKE UP PEOPLE !!! Or you will find you kids making more money at Walmart soon!!

[Doug Moore]

Like a red flag to a bull, it sure looks like the company's LCC's proposals are intended to rile everyone up and distract attention from the main event....Pensions.

Shack! (that's fighter-pilot talk for direct hit) The beauty of it all (for the company) is that the LCC is the icing on the cake - which they get to have and eat it too. Has anyone noticed that the cake doesn't cost the company a dime? They get it all for free! While the pilots wriggle in the belley of fear to which Fanblade alludes, the senior executives will once again stick their noses even deeper into the trough - in reward for another job well done.

If the pilots aren't willing to risk the present for the benefit of their futures then they are destined to forfeit that future for the gratification of the present.

[accumulous]

Well, the Flight Plan of the Hindenburg is unraveling just as expected.

A few scant weeks since the Hindenburg slipped the surly bonds of its mooring mast, it’s Commander has left for the bunk, the rudder has fallen off, and there’s an online mutiny in full swing, and it all has nothing to do with the CIRB or the CHRC.

When those two little incendiary grenades get lobbed up into the hydrogen bag, just tuck forward and grab yer ankles folks.

[MackTheKnife]

there’s an online mutiny in full swing, and it all has nothing to do with the CIRB or the CHRC.

There are now 1150 pilots signed up in the petition to boot the MEC Chair. The end is near and it can't come fast enough.


http://www.pprune.org/canada/448546-air ... ost6367244

[rudder]

2 choices:

1. Vote 'Yes' and hope that your flying partner each day for the rest of your career is not one of the current or future pilots that got screwed in the deal (unless you can convince them that you screwed yourself as well and that misery loves company)

2. Vote 'NO' and send a clear message that this is not what the profession at AC is going to look like if you have any say in the matter. Corporate strategic plans aside, you have too much self respect to sell yourself or your successors short.

You would be hard pressed to survive this debacle and not review leadership and give some consideration to alternative representation either individually or institutionally. Perhaps that is ACPA, perhaps it is not. It certainly appears that ACPA keeps bringing a knife to a gun fight. The pilots ultimately have the right to self determination.

Recall the definition of insanity - trying the same thing over and over again but each time expecting a different result. Haven't the last 10 years been painful enough? 2011 is turning into just another chapter in a neverending sad story at AC. When was the last time that an AC pilot voted on a collective agreement where the vote was not tainted with the threat of "or else"?

If this passes, will AC pilots really be "The pilots that other pilots want to be ?" No, that moniker will rightfully belong to Transat, WJ, or Jazz pilots who are moving the professional bar north rather than south.

[bearinmind]

If we were to move to another pilot union, they will probably bring experienced negotiators, knowlege and experience and walkout money. It would give us a stronger negotiation position.

Its a slippery slope but we dont have much to loose. I am sure they would welcome us with open arms. Its going to take 4 months to restart this process with new people in the current structure and I dont know if we have the skills to get this done (I know I dont).

We need to learn from this and not repeat the same mistake. We need to send in the pro's.

[Inceptive]

Attended Roadshow today in YYZ...

WOW.. Air Canada's failures, according to our Negotiating Comittee somehow fall
upon us pilots!
West Jet guys and girls, you'll get a laugh out of this.. Not one slide was brought
up in reference to you, as you now surpass our bar.. The new evil seems to be Air
Transat.. Nowhere was there a WestJet, Southwest comparison as they tried to ram
LCC down our throat, because your standard is way to high!
LCC working conditions? Maybe you have all heard of a document called the CARs!

Slide after slide, was the worst case scenario..
Never was a mention of :

Managerial Costs
Flight Attendant Costs
Ground Handling Costs
Grooming Costs
Catering Costs
Corporate Attitude

I guess our further wage erosion on New Hires (4 year flat), along with a Defined Contribution pension plan,
for those of you lucky enough to be accepted, will save our airline. If this goes through, it's a
sad day for all.
No LCC plan or strategy, just the fear mongering that if we don't take it we're dead.
No claw back clauses if no other group accepts.

We now have enough votes to recall our MEC Chair (1056), but as he states "he's not a quiter".
Some how he doesn't get the fact that he's being fired!

[Airbrake]

http://www.ctv.ca/generic/generated/sta ... 84449.html

I like the highlights at the bottom.
I'm just not sure if I was voting that HIGHlights would be the way I'd describe it.
Oh well I'm not, I'm just an observer.

[Localizer]

Holy Crap! .. Talk about lowering the bar! .. $100.00 shoe allowance!

Bad deal .. More division will equal more pain for all .. Don't let them bamboozle you about the pension .. DB is the way to go for ALL, not some .. hence the word .. "union".

Good luck Striker, we're all countin' on ya!

[rudder]

If we were to move to another pilot union, they will probably bring experienced negotiators, knowlege and experience and walkout money. It would give us a stronger negotiation position.

Its a slippery slope but we dont have much to loose. I am sure they would welcome us with open arms. Its going to take 4 months to restart this process with new people in the current structure and I dont know if we have the skills to get this done (I know I dont).

We need to learn from this and not repeat the same mistake. We need to send in the pro's.

There is a tent with 53,000 fellow professional pilots in it and lots of room for the largest pilot group in Canada. FedEx came back, Continental came back, and not too long ago the airTran pilots merged their association with ALPA realising that an independant pilot union could not get them where they wanted to go.

Unmatched resources, MCF support grants in the millions$$, and a constitution that provides autonomy for each and every MEC. ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis Department is widely regarded as one of the most credible sources of information on the commercial aviation industry in the world. You will not need to borrow slideshows from management for the roadshows. Former ALPA President Duane Woerth once said "Pilots should not compete with pilots - leave competition to our employers".

Perhaps ACPA is not the problem. Representational change is not a panacea, but it is never unwise to question the status quo. Once you have the answer, then act accordingly.

[Localizer]

One voice .. one union.

www.alpa.org

[Mig29]

Yes there is plenty of room for everyone!!! I agree!!

And I just want to say that I still firmly believe that there is a MAJORITY of good folks at AC keeping the planes up in the air and bringing people safe to their homes and families. And all the bickering and jokes on the side between AC/Jazz/WJ and others aside, I wish you guys good luck and don't bite the bait on this one...everyone will lose at the end. Because, someone else is going to have their contract re-negotiated 5 years from now and guess what.....they will compare you with them and ask for more cuts, which in turn will come back to your table on your next round of negotiations 8-10 years from today!!!

[mknaak]

Please read this definition regarding FIDUCIARY LAW. Im familiar with this type of law, and it my opinion ACPA and in particular its chairman have possible breached their duty. From what I know there is a serious conflict of interest between ACPA and AC management. If you really want to stir things up, start talking on the private forum about ACPA and their possible breach of fiduciary law.

FIDUCIARY LAW DEFINED:
An individual in whom another has placed the utmost trust and confidence to manage and protect property or money. The relationship wherein one person has an obligation to act for another's benefit.

A fiduciary relationship encompasses the idea of faith and confidence and is generally established only when the confidence given by one person is actually accepted by the other person. Mere respect for another individual's judgment or general trust in his or her character is ordinarily insufficient for the creation of a fiduciary relationship. The duties of a fiduciary include loyalty and reasonable care of the assets within custody. All of the fiduciary's actions are performed for the advantage of the beneficiary.

Courts have neither defined the particular circumstances of fiduciary relationships nor set any limitations on circumstances from which such an alliance may arise. Certain relationships are, however, universally regarded as fiduciary. The term embraces legal relationships such as those between attorney and client, Broker and principal, principal and agent, trustee and beneficiary, and executors or administrators and the heirs of a decedent's estate.

A fiduciary relationship extends to every possible case in which one side places confidence in the other and such confidence is accepted; this causes dependence by the one individual and influence by the other


ALL THE BEST.

[yycflyguy]

Very interesting!

[Raymond Hall]

Please read this From what I know there is a serious conflict of interest between ACPA and AC management.

Save your energy. The relationship is one of conflict of interest by design. One is a bargaining agent and the other is the employer, as defined by the provisions of the Canada Labour Code. It is inherently adversarial.

[rudder]

We now have enough votes to recall our MEC Chair (1056), but as he states "he's not a quiter".
Some how he doesn't get the fact that he's being fired!

1200 and counting.........dead man walking.

Wouldn't 1501 effectively mean that the TA is dead as well? At this pace that could happen by Friday evening.

Perhaps the MEC (the group of 12 and in particular the gang of 6 that are clearly out of touch with their members) will read the tea leaves and reconsider the motion to accept this TA. Hope that the vote to suck this back would be unanimous since they will be voting for their own continued tenure on the MEC. Angry pilots are very aggressive constituents. Calin and the NC woke up the sleeping giant. Perhaps someone should send Calin a thank you note for 'focusing the pilot's attention' on what they can do individually and collectively to affect the present and the future at AC. When you piss off the moderates you have swatted the hornet's nest. Nobody will remain on the sidelines for this one.

The coward's way out would be for the MEC and NC to try to figure out what it will take to get 50%+1. It is up to the membership to stop that from happening. Any deal that passes at below 80% is a failure of leadership and a failure of representation. NOBODY should want to lead a divided pilot group after a 50%+1 ratification. Management would eat them alive.

[Lost in Saigon]

1200 effectively means the TA is dead RIGHT NOW. The last IVR vote only had 2561 votes cast. Half of that plus one is only 1281.

Goodbye TA.
Goodbye Negotiating Committee.

Hello Jean-Marc Belanger.

[yycflyguy]

That's not my understanding.

For MEC Chair recall there only needs to be a petition of 30% names. Once the petition is presented to the MEC a vote must go out to the membership no later than 15 days after receiving the petition. The vote must show 50% + 1 for a recall.

The TA is still technically alive. The NC has not been asked to step down so, as of this moment, there will still be a ratification vote on the TA.

I sense the petition will not be presented until after the last gong show tomorrow in YYZ. More names have been added from the YUL roadshow today.

Impressive turnaround for many apathetic members to now show unity in moving forward.

[Rockie]

MEC members that supported this TA need to go too. They have to be rooted out and sent packing.

I also think a strike vote on the heels of an MEC purge would send a strong and unmistakable message to CR that the "good pals" relationship is over.

[SII]

I never thought I'd see it but you guy's look as good as JAZZ did going into their negotiations.

good luck

[rudder]

That's not my understanding.

For MEC Chair recall there only needs to be a petition of 30% names. Once the petition is presented to the MEC a vote must go out to the membership no later than 15 days after receiving the petition. The vote must show 50% + 1 for a recall.

The TA is still technically alive. The NC has not been asked to step down so, as of this moment, there will still be a ratification vote on the TA.

The MEC Chair could change that by submitting his resignation.

The MEC could change that by passing a motion to rescind its earlier motion to accept the TA.

What should be happening now is planning the next step. Anybody who is still more concerned with their own pride or hurt feelings isn't playing for the team they are playing for themselves. Or they actually believe that 50%+1 is an acceptable result. This process should be stopped in its tracks before the actual results of those two voting events become a matter of record and could be used by others(?) to guage the resolve of the pilot group.

This should not be turned into a pilot vs pilot battle. Time to think strategically. CR is a master tactician - do not give him ammunition.

[yycflyguy]

MEC members that supported this TA need to go too. They have to be rooted out and sent packing.

I also think a strike vote on the heels of an MEC purge would send a strong and unmistakable message to CR that the "good pals" relationship is over.

Right backatcha!
+ 1,000,000

Time to do a little house cleaning

The MEC Chair could change that by submitting his resignation.

The MEC could change that by passing a motion to rescind its earlier motion to accept the TA.

What should be happening now is planning the next step. Anybody who is still more concerned with their own pride or hurt feelings isn't playing for the team they are playing for themselves. Or they actually believe that 50%+1 is an acceptable result. This process should be stopped in its tracks before the actual results of those two voting events become a matter of record and could be used by others(?) to guage the resolve of the pilot group.

This should not be turned into a pilot vs pilot battle. Time to think strategically. You are up against a master tactician - do not give him ammunition to be used against you.

Based on the level of arrogance shown at the roadshow I am not expecting anyone to step down. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that the high level union officials have been offered a Golden Carrot with the company. Time for the membersip to give them a Golden shower.

[Tiny Tyke]

Dear ACPA members,

If you as a group feel that lower WAWCON is what your airline needs to survive, kindly do the right thing. What is the right thing? You all need to take the hit together!!!! Unions should not equal throwing new employees under the bus.

Next thing is, those new guys will be finding a way to take money back from you........

Stop this silliness now. More division between pilots is not what pilots in this country need.

TT

[yycflyguy]

Dear ACPA members,

If you as a group feel that lower WAWCON is what your airline needs to survive, kindly do the right thing. What is the right thing? You all need to take the hit together!!!! Unions should not equal throwing new employees under the bus.

Next thing is, those new guys will be finding a way to take money back from you........

Stop this silliness now. More division between pilots is not what pilots in this country need.

TT

Patience young Jedi. We are working it but the dark side is powerful.

[bearinmind]

I didnt want to use the 'A' word (alpa) in my last post because its a dirty word to many that are currently fighting with them from a decision 20 years ago. It dosent have to be them, but there is one big reason for the move to that union.

Our company does business with 2 companies that are both ALPA members, Contentential and Jazz. If we are represented by that group there will be an atmosphere of co-operation not competition. We are likely to be protected by our union from fellow union members taking over our flying as it would be a conflict to have one ALPA union group compete for flying with another group.

They just negotiated a DB pension (JAZZ), a LCC 10 year captain wage of $175/year for transat and 85 hours, not 100, High daily perdiems for both, and solid benefit packages. guys love working for companies that they represent. If i had to pick someone that was going to get me a good deal, they might not be the worst out there.

We should at least research it. We are getting molested with our current group.

ACPA's commitment to a number of lawsuits is a liability to my career, and I they are spread too thin to be effective.

This probably not going to be my most popular post.