Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Fanblade]

II've had first hand conversions with the WJPA exec folks and was surprised (shocked really) to hear that when they went thru their 'benchmarking' exercise they didn't seam to think that a comparison of total aggregate pilot cost was relevant. In other words, from what I understood, they were basically saying that they had 'negotiated' a competitive package based on a very, very narrow assumption of what the industry benchmark is. This would, if in fact this is what happened, produce a total pilot compensation package far, far below an 'all in' level of comparison regardless of the targeted percentile. I hope this is not the case but the folks I was talking to definitely had the 'deer in the headlights' look about them when questioned about it.

The last thing WJ wants is to have the highest cost regional 5 years from now. Encore IS the catylist for the Americanization of regional airlines in Canada.

They know it. They know AC now has the ability to follow suit.

Encore and SR are the new benchmark. Set by executives because two pilot groups didn't bother.

[Mostly Harmless]

The pilot shortage has started already. The costs of getting a licence are going up and people just can't afford it anymore. It will be that cost, not instructors, limits on licences, nor unions that will drive the market over the next 10 to 20 years... as it has done in other markets.

However, the great pilot shortage won't change anything. My prediction is: By the time I am retiring, the first single pilot airliners will be taking to the air. 20 years after that, the first drone (pilot-less) airliners.

For those who insist it won't happen, just look at history. A Captain, a First Officer, an Engineer, a Navigator and a Radio Operator. Of that contingent, how many are still employed on the flight deck?

We are working in an industry in it's twilight. We are slowly being replaced by technology just like so many other jobs have disappeared throughout history. For now, just try to have a good chair for when the music stops again.

[FOX69]

3 options:

1.If you don't like the wage, don't apply.

2. If you like the wage...LOL, nobody likes the wage.

3. If you don't like the wage, but understand that a little risk now could very likely pay big rewards later, then get on board, grab an oar and start rowing. You will be expected to work hard. You will be expected to shift your thinking from "me" to "we". You will be expected to think of the entire corporation as a team. You will be expected to put in a little extra effort from time to time. You will be expected to seek opportunity not entitlement. You will be expected to be a leader.

Remember: Encore is an entry level position.

More than likely, after a few years, you will find yourself sitting in the right seat of a shiny 737 making 6 figures, cruising back and forth to Hawaii and Cancun. Your biggest worry is how to fit all your duty free purchases in your suitcase, and hopefully learning a few things along the way.

10 years later you will be sitting in my seat, wondering what to do with your fat pay cheque and 6 weeks vacation. And remembering how hard you had to bust your butt to get there. And hopefully teaching a few things along the way.

If you don't want to risk it, then stay on the sidelines. Quit pissing in my koolaid.

[BTyyj]

Mostly Harmless, just out of curiosity but what type of flying do you do?

[Legacy]

The pilot shortage has started already. The costs of getting a licence are going up and people just can't afford it anymore. It will be that cost, not instructors, limits on licences, nor unions that will drive the market over the next 10 to 20 years... as it has done in other markets.

However, the great pilot shortage won't change anything. My prediction is: By the time I am retiring, the first single pilot airliners will be taking to the air. 20 years after that, the first drone (pilot-less) airliners.

For those who insist it won't happen, just look at history. A Captain, a First Officer, an Engineer, a Navigator and a Radio Operator. Of that contingent, how many are still employed on the flight deck?

We are working in an industry in it's twilight. We are slowly being replaced by technology just like so many other jobs have disappeared throughout history. For now, just try to have a good chair for when the music stops again.

Ain't gonna happen in our lifetime.I was having a chat with an engineer that dealt with this type of engineering.he said the amount of extra wiring alone would outweigh the benefits. Thousands of pounds just to accompany the extra redundancies. The research is better spent in more efficient engines, Eg, electric. The extra weight in wiring would easily be offset by the fuel burn to haul it around. Fuel cost way more than an extra pilot as we all know.

[URC]

...

[ABbarnstormer]

Fox 69.....Exactly!

Go to Encore if you like, or not, nobody there will miss you! We all know the pay sucks, but it's a job (with a future), not a guarantee of career salary!
Jazz guys and gals have had to fight for career salaries, because it is their career at that company! Having said that, there are a ton of Jazz guys at WS...why? Is it a better job? I don't know, you tell me.
Doesn't matter what profession you are in, you may do the same job as someone else, but that doesn't mean you'll be compensated the same or even fairly!
Encore is a company offering employment for those who want it! That's it!
Would I go there? Hell no! Would I have 20 years ago? Hell YES!
As for the state of our profession and pilots selling themselves short, welcome to the club! We had these arguments 20 years ago! I can show you a letter I kept from an old boss advising me that due to the reduction in flying my base had to be lowered to $250 per month!
We are in this profession (hopefully) because we love it, it's not for the fame, cash or chicks! But when I go to a high school reunion or party and someone asks what I do, I humbly respond 'Airline pilot' and people respect that! There may be oilfield workers that make more at 21 years old but who the hell cares!
Anyway...
Happy Safe flying to all,... Whatever you do.
P.s.- have you joined the Canadian college of professional pilots? If not why not?

[Realitychex]

Translation:

"Take from those stupid enough to give (Pilots)" and "Put it in the right peoples pocket (Exec's)"

If that's what you believe, what's stopping you from becoming an executive?

[Mostly Harmless]

Mostly Harmless, just out of curiosity but what type of flying do you do?

Does it matter? Is there some sort of ruler we need to pull out?

Ain't gonna happen in our lifetime.I was having a chat with an engineer that dealt with this type of engineering.he said the amount of extra wiring alone would outweigh the benefits. Thousands of pounds just to accompany the extra redundancies. The research is better spent in more efficient engines, Eg, electric. The extra weight in wiring would easily be offset by the fuel burn to haul it around. Fuel cost way more than an extra pilot as we all know.

I disagree, but only time will tell which one of us is correct. Fiber-optic cable and wireless technology will offset some of that weight gain you are referring to. Technology has a tendency to get lighter and more efficient as time goes on. I will agree that the time frame is a minimum 20 years before you see it. But, I know that it is something that is being looked at by the manufacturers now. You don't have to agree with me, but neither should you dismiss the concept out of hand either. It won't effect me, but it will effect the industry. Where it won't happen is on light aircraft... there is absolutely no cost efficiency there.

To the point of the wages at WJE, if you feel the pay is not what it should be, then the 'Suppose They Gave An Airline and Nobody Came' answer is only practicable one for the issue...

[teacher]

Seriously, it doesn't matter how you cut it, justify it or reason it. That compensation is an insult to the piloting profession. Shit pay is still shit pay. Over my years as a commercial pilot I have developed a sense pride and respect for my profession. Too bad so many pilots think so little of theirs.

[jjj]

Teacher,

The offer is still on the table.

C'mon, it could mean a G note for ya.

JJJ

[Eric Janson]

So do I stick it out and hope to be able to feed my family in ten years or jump ship to over seas where the pay is good and never see my family?

Anyone have a better solution?

A better solution is to move overseas with your family. There is a time limit on any kind of commuting contract - just a matter of time before it becomes too much for you or your family. I have colleagues who commute.

In case some of you think that working overseas is the magical solution......

The Airline I work for has just reduced the number of days I can spend at home/year by 16. They were giving us 8 off days in a row 3 times a year (days that we have anyway as our normal off days). They have taken away 2 of these blocks even though there is no cost to the Airline. The reason given is "operational requirements".

Last year - maximum 51 days at home (lose 9 days travelling)

This year - maximum 35 days at home (lose 9 days travelling)

Salaries may be good but there is a deliberate, ongoing effort to reduce my benefits. I've looked at other options but there are some very negative aspects to the other jobs on offer. Changing companies means changing one set of problems for another.

The race to the bottom is going on everywhere - make no mistake about that.

Some more Perspective

Pilot salaries account for 3% of the total operating costs at most Airlines. Any reduction in Pilot salaries has almost no effect on the total costs.

As has been said already there is no such thing as stability or job security in this Industry (it doesn't matter who you work for).

The key to survival in this Industry is Marketability imho - you need to have the Type Rating(s) and experience that the market requires. The Rating(s) will get you the job and the experience will get you the salary/benefits.

The only Pilot shortage is a shortage of Experienced, Type Rated Captains. This will continue to be the case.

Please continue - it's a very interesting discussion.

[teacher]

Teacher,

The offer is still on the table.

C'mon, it could mean a G note for ya.

JJJ

I don't gamble, even on a sure thing because there's no such thing.

[anonymity]

I'll wager $1000.00 with you that the first Encore FO's who complete a full calendar year without upgrading, will exceed Jazz FOs (of similar years of service) total comp exclusive of overtime.

jjj, first of all I think we can all agree the FO wages are comparably dismal in the airline industry, some might argue already at the bottom. Second I doubt that very much, unless you know something we don't. Jazz FO will make 41,500 with our average block which has been 82.5 for the last 2-3 years only working 14-16 days a month. On top of that a 1st year FO at Jazz will also get about 10,000 in pension and benefit contributions.

Not sure if your trying the old bait and switch but the issue for me and most probably the rest, is what they are paying for Captains, less than I made last year and probably the year before that, but it's ok because after the predators are done destroying the competition, the wages will go up right? or the cycle will continue and the downward spiral also, enjoy your next round of bargaining, I will try and have some sympathy for you, NOT!

[Squid]

So encore at 82.5 (block hrs)x 38 x 12 = 38988 plus 10 percent esp (3900) = 42888.88 per year
Plus potential profit share plus date of hire flow through plus benefits plus equal employee travel plus all the other benefits like pilot assistance etc.
not that much different then jazz really. And the longevity of a fun growing company. Hmmmmmm ( I hope my bro gets on there) jazz is in survival mode with legacy costs, mature pay rates and no growth.
Good luck.
When ya do the math it ain't that bad when you base it off 82.5 is it?

Btw... Any of you dudes remember the previous AC initial pay? I do, i lived it. and it was less than encore if you need a hint. It was around for years. Teacher et al? Get my point? The " bar "everyone is quoting was set a long time ago. Lol. U guys crack me up.

Lol

[jjj]

Squid,

bingo!

[Squid]

Btw, if any of you genius types know anything about blocking, a window between 70 and 90 opens the world for productivity. Wanna bet the 20 days max is just that? I'll bet once the network grows the blocks and days off will be very close to jazz. Do me a favor, ask Randall and company what they are thinking? Btw over 250 applications in just over a week now my buddy says.

[stickontheice]

The race to the bottom has been going on for a very long time. Encore isn't changing that. How many people had knee burns after driving up to Smithers to see if Bruce would give him/usually hot her a job at 200 hours? How many people bought BN2A right seat time? Why the hell are we allowing foreign pilots to fly our aircraft? Why are our young put into so many desperate situations? One just thinks of NavAir on the west coast, God rest their souls, and you can see the race is more a marathon.

Wanna change the industry? Airline pilots need leaders that have the balls/ovaries to stand up and say if you haven't worked at approved companies and cannot hold Canadian Citizenship/Permanent Residency then you will not be approved to our pilot list and not be granted the benefits or protections that the list gives you. In each contract the pilot leadership should hold the final say whether or not a pilot is approved to work and be apart of the list.

This whole argument that pilot wages are too high is an absolute crock to me. It's like France taxing the rich at 75%. Looks great in the press but at the end of the day does it really answer the reason costs are creeping up?

Gregg S recently mentioned that if Canada had a level playing field with the USA that WJ could fill another plane a day with guests? Companies are so concerned with employee wages and cutting costs that they are missing a crucial opportunity to rally the public and fill the airplanes. Go after the Airport Authorities. YYC just about to raise their AIF to $30 a head. They're even charging now to use US Customs ($4.00 per person). The Senate is studying the way Canadian airports are being operated. Singing walls in Edmonton, Seagulls in YVR, New runway in YYC, etc. These airports would probably see the same revenue as more people would return to Canada for their flights.

I hope this is a starting point for Encore. I wasn't a fan of the 10% ESP and these wages are going be tough to attract anyone away from any descent job. Carrots alone don't make a great salad.

[Legacy]

Stickontheice well put. Go after the other bs that is driving up costs. Aif, fuel tax, ask that crap. The battle might even be easier and you get to keep a healthy employee staff rather than screwing them over. Might actually get some productivity from them too. This is where CEOs are frigging retarded and need a brain transplant.

[Green Onions]

So what does "date of hire flow through" mean? Say you are a 5 year Encore captain, and in that 5 years they hire 200 guys off the street for WestJet. Are you behind these guys for an upgrade at WestJet or is your upgrade at WestJet based on your Encore date of hire?

What about pay? You are making captain pay at Encore for 5 years, then move to WestJet. Are you getting year 1 WestJet f/o pay? or year 5?

If your number comes up at Encore and you are offered a spot at WestJet can you delay and stay are Encore longer? but use your WestJet spot later?

I haven't seen answers to these questions in here. Would be tough to make a good decision without knowing this stuff.

[Realitychex]

Teacher,

The offer is still on the table.

C'mon, it could mean a G note for ya.

JJJ

I don't gamble, even on a sure thing because there's no such thing.

There's gambling and then there are informed decisions based on a thorough understanding of what's happening in the industry on a macro basis.

The reason investors lined up to buy into WestJet in 1995-1996 and beyond is they understood it was not much of a gamble. Easy? No. But gamble? Not really. The macro economics behind the venture made the outcome almost inevitable, provided the execution was rock solid and key management was laser beam focused 24/7 with skin in the game.

For those that consider it to be dumb luck, review the following:

http://www.flightglobal.com/page/Airlines-startups/

I've talked to hundreds and hundreds of pilots over the years and the ones that seem to always get ahead are the ones that understand the big picture.There are always exceptions to the rule, but it seems to me that it's the same pool of folks that bounce from job to job to job as a result of having made ill informed decisions.

Additionally, unless one lives in a very select number of major cities in Canada, one has to expect to have to move to the mountain in order to get ahead in life. I'm sure we all know people that have chosen to stay in their home town for ever and, as a result, have never enjoyed the professional and financial success achieved by others who were prepared to leave the comfortable nest and explore the larger world where opportunity knocks. I know a slew of Cathay guys who left Canada in the early 90's who kept their noses clean and who are now living very comfortable ex-pat lives in Hong Kong. No guts, no glory.

As a rule, I'd stick to ventures that are most likely to stand the test of time and by definition, that means ventures that are most likely to be sustainably profitable, and where that can be irrefutably and independently established. How many folks at Jetsgo / C3000 / Royal etc were blindsided after being told time and time again that the business was doing "great" by their respective owners? Unless you see the audited books, all that talk and 25 cents will get you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.

Caveat emptor.

[Realitychex]

Gregg S recently mentioned that if Canada had a level playing field with the USA that WJ could fill another plane a day with guests? Companies are so concerned with employee wages and cutting costs that they are missing a crucial opportunity to rally the public and fill the airplanes. Go after the Airport Authorities. YYC just about to raise their AIF to $30 a head. They're even charging now to use US Customs ($4.00 per person). The Senate is studying the way Canadian airports are being operated. Singing walls in Edmonton, Seagulls in YVR, New runway in YYC, etc. These airports would probably see the same revenue as more people would return to Canada for their flights.
.

I'll guarantee it's far, far more than a plane a day. A level playing field would add, conservatively, between 2,500 and 3,000 well paid airline jobs in Canada, not to mention the economic spin off as a result of all those jobs.

Th GoC is completely out to lunch on this file.

[dukepoint]

.

[Legacy]

Gregg S recently mentioned that if Canada had a level playing field with the USA that WJ could fill another plane a day with guests? Companies are so concerned with employee wages and cutting costs that they are missing a crucial opportunity to rally the public and fill the airplanes. Go after the Airport Authorities. YYC just about to raise their AIF to $30 a head. They're even charging now to use US Customs ($4.00 per person). The Senate is studying the way Canadian airports are being operated. Singing walls in Edmonton, Seagulls in YVR, New runway in YYC, etc. These airports would probably see the same revenue as more people would return to Canada for their flights.
.

I'll guarantee it's far, far more than a plane a day. A level playing field would add, conservatively, between 2,500 and 3,000 well paid airline jobs in Canada, not to mention the economic spin off as a result of all those jobs.

Th GoC is completely out to lunch on this file.

According to some stats Canada is losing about 1.5 BILLION bucks a year due go Canadians driving south to catch flights and that was expected to increase to 2+ billion in no time at all. Apparently Harper doesn't give a crap. Funny how he makes the AC employees go back to work but doesn't care about the jobs that we lose due to this migration of travel.

[nottellin]

Not to go of on to big a tangent but In regards to the government treating airports like cash cows therefore driving passengers south, while yet At the same time subsidizing industries like the auto sector so that those "valued" employees can continue to earn fat paychecks is beyond me. This government is stealing our ( all employees in the aviation sector) lunch to give to others who they deem more deserving. The last time I checked the auto sector boys and girls where doing extremely well for themselves especially when you consider what has happened to airline employees over the last several years.

Not trying to compare apples to oranges( ie industries) But I feel it is worth pointing out.