Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Legacy]

When a guy gets paid 40+ an hour to stick Z71 stickers on the back of a truck..................

[BTyyj]

nottellin, I don't think the situation is at all similar to that of the auto sector. As someone has already mentioned, the potential revenue increase in leveling the playing field would equate to equal or greater benefit to the Canadian government.

I want to point out that there is an ad up for a BE02 captain - starting salary is $80 000/yr.

[RussD]

Word on the street is the pay packet for wjE is going to be touched up. If so I guess the uptake wasn't as positive as represented.

[Squid]

Not true Russ.

[WJ200]

Agreed..not true....there has been an overwhelming response. To everyone that has applied....thank you for not listening to all the noise.

[BTyyj]

Maybe they're not getting the experience levels they wanted?

[Squid]

My best bud works on the hiring team. They have over 300 resumes now in just over a week and Gina has been calling. Apparently they are calling mostly 705 type captains and q rated people. No shortage.

[tbaylx]

My best bud works on the hiring team. They have over 300 resumes now in just over a week and Gina has been calling. Apparently they are calling mostly 705 type captains and q rated people. No shortage.

Wow guess with that number of applicants WJE really screwed it up. They could have paid 40k for a left seat and 25k for an f/o and still had pilots. What I'm curious about is if pilot costs are only 2 to 3 percent of the operating costs then why is it that it's the first thing companies go after when they want to cut costs? Oh that's right, easy targets I guess.

[Mig29]

Wow guess with that number of applicants WJE really screwed it up. They could have paid 40k for a left seat and 25k for an f/o and still had pilots. What I'm curious about is if pilot costs are only 2 to 3 percent of the operating costs then why is it that it's the first thing companies go after when they want to cut costs? Oh that's right, easy targets I guess.

Ha! very true my friend, I think they could've easily lowered the bar even more!

why is it that it's the first thing companies go after when they want to cut costs? Oh that's right, easy targets I guess.

Why? Because we are collectively stupid, including myself!

[matrix]

I think you'll find that pilots account for 20-25% of total salary cost for airlines. That 3% is just union spin.

[Impact]

When all things are considered, taking into account job security which is directly related to the viability of company itself, I'm quite sure that the new cadre of Encore pilots will fair quite well.

My impression is that the naysayers who are throwing out unfounded negativity towards this new upstart are more in fear for their own long term job security than anything else. It's as simple as that.

[RustyDeuce]

Employee costs are the second highest cost after fuel.

[Paia]

Sadly, with the wages being presented, regional flying is being degraded. The Q400 is a beautiful plane and the type of flying is challenging. It would be nice to see our Canadian pilots paid appropiately for the job.. Not the hopes that one day they'll make a proper wage. Not all pilots want to work for WJ or AC.

[loopy]

So encore at 82.5 (block hrs)x 38 x 12 = 38988 plus 10 percent esp (3900) = 42888.88 per year
Plus potential profit share plus date of hire flow through plus benefits plus equal employee travel plus all the other benefits like pilot assistance etc.
not that much different then jazz really. And the longevity of a fun growing company. Hmmmmmm ( I hope my bro gets on there) jazz is in survival mode with legacy costs, mature pay rates and no growth.
Good luck.
When ya do the math it ain't that bad when you base it off 82.5 is it?

Btw... Any of you dudes remember the previous AC initial pay? I do, i lived it. and it was less than encore if you need a hint. It was around for years. Teacher et al? Get my point? The " bar "everyone is quoting was set a long time ago. Lol. U guys crack me up.

Lol

Thanks for mentioning that, Squid. This is nothing new in this country, even the "flag carrier" was and is doing it. What was it, $38.5K a year for the first 2 years. What is it now, 45ish for 4 years? Why aren't people bitching about that? Why hasn't ACPA corrected that insult to the new hires? Do I wish that starting salaries, left and right seat were better for this type of flying, especially considering the experience required to get hired in most cases and the pay most of us leave. Damn right I do. This isn't new.

I do agree that we are often our own worst enemies and I do think there should be some sort of national association for professional pilots to lobby on our behalf. I don't think a "college" is the way to go but that is off topic and I've posted on that elsewhere.

[altiplano]

What is it now, 45ish for 4 years? Why aren't people bitching about that? Why hasn't ACPA corrected that insult to the new hires?

Not quite 45K for 4...

year 1 / 2 / 3 / 4
~annual@82.5hr/mo $49800/54950/63250/71550

plus annual contract % increases...

[onetreehill]

WestJet is still WAY better! You should have seen my T4 last year!

[altiplano]

I was just clearing up the 45K comment, not saying it's great... good for you and your T4.

[Mig29]

WestJet is still WAY better! You should have seen my T4 last year!

I don't know if you are just being sarcastic or trying to hook people on here, to react (which has been done before many times ) but try not to show your T4 to your new Encore colleagues...it will be an insult to them knowing that their mother company is not treating everyone equally.

Cheers

[Squid]

Mig
Are u saying that AC treats Jazz equally? Or the maintenance units the same?
Or are you just mad that WJ is doing this? Hypocritical in my view from what you are saying.
Here is some light reading:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiary

Time to get over it and move on boys and girls or go protest at Loblaws, Superstore or no frills. Lol

[BTyyj]

Squid,

Starting wages at Jazz are similar to those at AC, and unlike Encore, captains at Jazz do earn more than a lot of AC first officers.

You're right though, there is a lot of BS everywhere in this industry, and I think people are just picking on WJE right now as they expected (or hoped) for better from WJ.

[Squid]

What about the passes? and csa wages? How does the flow through work? Are the rouge working conditions the same as mainline?

[Fanblade]

There are two story lines going on here.

One, starting wages. Yes I agree nothing really to see here. EVERYONE does it.

Two is the shift in the regional market place with the entrance of Encore and AC's ability to contract out prop flying below 80 seats and Jet flying below 75 seats to anyone they wish.

Encore is entering the market with a 50% cost advantage over Jazz.

This is the same dramatic change that occurred in the narrow body market when WJ entered it with one difference. CAIL and AC had to fail to reduce employee costs toward the new entrant. That is a slow process. 15 years so far and counting. Two CCAA's and another near miss.

This time Encore can be matched almost instantaneously by AC with a new CPA. AC isn't the slow rudderless opponent this time as it is outside the control of unions. Encore will not enjoy a 15 year period of competing with a company with vastly higher costs.

The result? These wages are the new benchmark. Match it or parish.

Cross subsidization to the regional market is about to end. A capitalist would call that a good thing. An astute pilot would look south of the boarder to see what the result is.

With that said. It was only a matter of time anyway. AC would have been looking to capitalize on their new found ability to reduce costs in the regional market anyway.

My point and only point. It is the dramatic change about to happen that I am focussed on. The only other poster that seems to understand the change underway is Realitychex's.

Do not expect these wages to go up. If anything we may see pressure for them to be reduced.

We do compete trans boarder after all. Without cross subsidization imagine the WAWCON required to be profitable on a stand alone basis with say Skywest?

This change is on our door step. This isn't WJ or AC's fault. They are responding to each other in a competitive environment. The fault belongs to us. Two pilot groups that could have, but didn't set minimum WAWCON even though you would have to be blind not to see what happened south of us.

[CAL]

WJ guys...your T4 means f--- all.....(not suggesting wja esp is crap cuz its not..its pretty awesome)..what you take home means something...your T4 represents a wack of money you cant touch...or shouldnt touch...well you can if your wife/gf/fa wants a new car but then you cant pay your mortgage...or you risk your retirement...you make your hourly wage times your flying per month less taxes and anything you do over 80 hours or so....(that must suck having to do that to actually have a good income) how many hours do you work when you fly a 90 hour month...how many days away from home? ....thats what you make...just because rbc gave you a mortgage for a house in a good part of yyc doesnt mean you can really afford it...never understood why banks look at a wj pilots t4...very misleading...

[Mig29]

Mig
Are u saying that AC treats Jazz equally? Or the maintenance units the same?
Or are you just mad that WJ is doing this? Hypocritical in my view from what you are saying.
Here is some light reading:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiary

Time to get over it and move on boys and girls or go protest at Loblaws, Superstore or no frills. Lol

Squid, we can dissect our opinions all day long...You are comparing the relationship between two different and separate entities. Jazz was not formed by Air Canada. Sure it was consolidated under one brand, but Encore is a direct byproduct of Westjet. If Encore is going to be part of this "winning" team, then it should be treated by Westjet as an equal teammate. Not a second rank tier II airline...

Listen guys, all this talk is not going to change things one way or another. If I were sitting across the desk and talking to some businessman, CEO or investor, then I could totally understand some of the responses people write here. What scares me frankly is that most of these comments come from us, PILOTS

Just look it like this. Guys will earn 65-70K/year left seat flying their butts off with only 10 days off. Lot of short legs, multiple sectors per day, challenging weather and terrain at times. But we all love it I guess, on paper, but bitch and complain in the cockpit

Ok fine..... now take that salary and subtract 35% (after taxes and all employer deductions) and you walk away with around $3500/month. As a captain of a Q400 or Embraer 175!! Now if you think (as a pilot, not an investor) this is a reasonable pay living in YYC or YYZ then go ahead slave away....Guys make that more flying King airs, C208s and BE1900!! I won't even bother doing the math for the future F/O there....it's pathetic, justify it all you want, you guys won't convince me ever that this is right!

[jjj]

CAL,

A T4 is not misleading. It's the harsh reality of what a WS pilot made and has to manage for their endgame - the volatility of which is a personal choice.

I prefer it that way because as I regularly liquidate my stock to manage as I see fit. I am good with my money so I reap the benefits now and don't have to work to 65 like some organizations require if you want the good gravy. Policies from the next crazy CEO don't affect the money I have in my jeans today.
I put money in my jeans and I insulate it from this crazy industry. So far it works because the company
always pays its share into my account without fail.

Pensions are not without risk. If you had a choice, would you take your money up front or let it ride out of your control for 25 years.

If you want to compare AC vs. WS then feel free to include any speculative returns from a hopeful pension. The difference then will be - one will be speaking of tangible assets and the other one won't.

A T4 is honest - brutally honest because it's up to the holder to turn it into something sustainable.

I like my odds - so far so good. I'll let you know what my take home is in about 15 years.

Good luck to us all - this generation needs it.