New CPA and flowthrough to Air Canada?

[BingBong]

So, as Krimson said, if you're a new hire now, and getting on a migration list to AC is seniority based, then you have nearly 3 airlines worth of pilots (jazz/sky/ggn) who will get that interview before you. Seems a toss up to me whether OTS or jazz gives you a better chance... In the meantime, is it better to wait all those years at a decent paying 703/704 gig or making peanuts at jazz?

I don't believe that's how it works. I believe 80% of AC's hiring will be done by All Express carriers once PML is exhausted. The amount from each express carrier is a ratio of how many pilots they employ. Since Jazz is still the largest, they will have the largest cut of the express carriers. If the PML list is exhausted already, that means it will probably be the new hires now who will be going because everyone ahead of them already decided to go or not go.

You sir are one of the most sensible on this freakin forum and 100% correct.

Also to note the poolies aren't completely hooped. Here is a snippet fr ACPA MOA regarding the PMA
I think this is the most fair and equitable way of handling senioroty for both jazz pilots and poolies. (Sorry I hate calling you that but it seems to have stuck)
Eg:
A pilot training course is scheduled for 10 pilots on January 30th, 2015. The Company provides offers to 8 Jazz pilots from the PML and 2 pilots from the street (pilots A.B. and C.D). 2 Jazz pilots opt to defer their Employment Date and are replaced with 2 other Jazz pilots. As a result, during the lottery there will 12 pilots whose seniority will be determined at the conclusion of that training course. For the Jazz pilots the word “Jazz” will be used, whereas the other two pilots will use their names.Then each ballot will be selected to determine the seniority numbers. Assuming the order of the ballots was “Jazz, Jazz, A.B., Jazz, C.D., Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz, Jazz” the result would be as follows: the senior most Jazz pilot on the course, which may be one of the two who deferred, will be provided the first number; the second most senior Jazz pilot will receive the second number; then A.B. will receive his number; then the third most senior Jazz pilot; then C.D.; and then continuing through the Jazz pilots in order of their previous relative Jazz .

Also:

3. In the Air Canada hiring process, the ratio of pilots offered employment by Air Canada pursuant to the PML will be applied, to the extent possible, on a per course basis and reviewed on a quarterly basis in order to track compliance with the minimum hiring requirements stipulated in the Pilot Mobility .

[Krimson]

So, as Krimson said, if you're a new hire now, and getting on a migration list to AC is seniority based, then you have nearly 3 airlines worth of pilots (jazz/sky/ggn) who will get that interview before you. Seems a toss up to me whether OTS or jazz gives you a better chance... In the meantime, is it better to wait all those years at a decent paying 703/704 gig or making peanuts at jazz?

I don't believe that's how it works. I believe 80% of AC's hiring will be done by All Express carriers once PML is exhausted. The amount from each express carrier is a ratio of how many pilots they employ. Since Jazz is still the largest, they will have the largest cut of the express carriers. If the PML list is exhausted already, that means it will probably be the new hires now who will be going because everyone ahead of them already decided to go or not go.

Possible, but why would AC continue this cost-cutting agreement and take Jazz pilots when they are on a B scale, being the lowest paid regional pilots around? Once everyone is retired or moved on, start to focus on SKY/GGN and remove their top earners as well. After this, it wouldn't be so farfetched that the game changes again and the low paid Jazz pilots are stuck in about 10 years.

Feel free to apply, maybe it works out, but I don't want my future hanging in a game of chess between CEOs. If I was interested, I would rather hope for 20% OTS and in the meantime make a respectable wage with greater job security.

[AlphaOne]

It's going to be funny when all the PMA's who have an ATPL have been exhausted, and AC has to back pedal and up the OTS hiring since the only copilots left at Jazz came right out of college (because those were the only people willing to work for the new wage), with barely any pic time and aren't able to get their A's. That's provided, however, AC doesn't change their mins to IATRA!

[Mart]

I Don't know if this as been answered yet but for the pilot who decide to flowtrough to AC, are they going to AC or Rouge?

[rudder]

I Don't know if this as been answered yet but for the pilot who decide to flowtrough to AC, are they going to AC or Rouge?

For the purposes of the AC pilot group, they are the same thing. New-hires are assigned to unbid vacancies wherever they are in the AC or Rouge system. Differences in wages and work rules for Rouge are covered via an LOU that forms part of the ACPA collective agreement.

[BingBong]

It's going to be funny when all the PMA's who have an ATPL have been exhausted, and AC has to back pedal and up the OTS hiring since the only copilots left at Jazz came right out of college (because those were the only people willing to work for the new wage), with barely any pic time and aren't able to get their A's. That's provided, however, AC doesn't change their mins to IATRA!

I've been at jazz for 5 years...probably around the 1100 mark. I dont expect (barring any 9/11, SARS outbreaks) to get a course (barring passing the interview) for at least 3-5 years. With the ATPL rules changing to 1:1, you don't think 5 years is enough time to get an ATPL?? Lots of time my friend. I think in 2014 I flew around 800 hrs. 5 years is SFA.

Enjoy

[Krimson]

Any final word if new hires are getting put on the PML?

[countryhick]

New hires will be included with the other regionals on a "per capita" ratio, or something, to be decided by AC once the original list is exhausted.

[aV1aTOr]

According to AC, the PML list is closed. As far as the current deal goes, no more names will be added to the list.

[Krimson]

What's the final name count on the PML? How many pilots does Jazz have on the roster?

[flyer 1492]

Not sure of the final number, rumor is around 725-750. Total number of pilots is 1350, with 16 headed over to AC on March 16.

Flyer

[AllClutch]

714

[Krimson]

With over half the pilots leaving and another ??? retiring over the next few years, could the upgrade times at Jazz be coming down?

[proper]

That's the plan. 2-3 years in the right seat. Go skipper then off to AC via the PML 2.0

[fish4life]

Why would Air Canada ever have a PML 2.0 ? They got what they needed cheaper new labour and cut off the expensive stuff on the top. Think about it

[Stinky]

That's the plan. 2-3 years in the right seat. Go skipper then off to AC via the PML 2.0

I'll be totally shocked if we start to see 3 year upgrade times at Jazz, although I've been pretty shocked at how the industry has changed over the last 5 years.

Where did you get that number? I'm not disputing it, but is it based on any projections or just a gut feeling.

[rudder]

With over half the pilots leaving and another ??? retiring over the next few years, could the upgrade times at Jazz be coming down?

Not all PML pilots will be offered employment by AC. Some rejected already. Average age of a Captain at Jazz falls somewhere between 50-54. The vast majority in the 50+ range are not participating in the PMA process making a high acceptance rate of the senior PML pilots by AC critical to any cost reduction objectives manifesting themselves prior to 2026.

As for upgrades, planned fleet reductions will eliminate 100-150 Captain slots over time. Most of the PML list is populated by Jazz FO's so once the initial departure wave of senior PML pilots is over there will only be Capt attrition via normal retirement and early retirement incentives. Approximately 440 mandatory retirements forecast between 2015-2026.

Upgrade timing for Jazz pilots hired in 2015 is likely still 6+ years. Those hired after 2015 will have decreasing wait times for upgrade.

[aV1aTOr]

With over half the pilots leaving and another ??? retiring over the next few years, could the upgrade times at Jazz be coming down?

Not all PML pilots will be offered employment by AC. Some rejected already. Average age of a Captain at Jazz falls somewhere between 50-54. The vast majority in the 50+ range are not participating in the PMA process making a high acceptance rate of the senior PML pilots by AC critical to any cost reduction objectives manifesting themselves prior to 2026.

As for upgrades, planned fleet reductions will eliminate 100-150 Captain slots over time. Most of the PML list is populated by Jazz FO's so once the initial departure wave of senior PML pilots is over there will only be Capt attrition via normal retirement and early retirement incentives. Approximately 440 mandatory retirements forecast between 2015-2026.

Upgrade timing for Jazz pilots hired in 2015 is likely still 6+ years. Those hired after 2015 will have decreasing wait times for upgrade.

Now rudder, why would you go and shoot down a perfectly juicy projection with the facts and realism? That's not in line with the spirit of AvCanada you know. You might want to take a long look in the mirror before another post like that. Shame on you.

[Krimson]

With over half the pilots leaving and another ??? retiring over the next few years, could the upgrade times at Jazz be coming down?

Not all PML pilots will be offered employment by AC. Some rejected already. Average age of a Captain at Jazz falls somewhere between 50-54. The vast majority in the 50+ range are not participating in the PMA process making a high acceptance rate of the senior PML pilots by AC critical to any cost reduction objectives manifesting themselves prior to 2026.

As for upgrades, planned fleet reductions will eliminate 100-150 Captain slots over time. Most of the PML list is populated by Jazz FO's so once the initial departure wave of senior PML pilots is over there will only be Capt attrition via normal retirement and early retirement incentives. Approximately 440 mandatory retirements forecast between 2015-2026.

Upgrade timing for Jazz pilots hired in 2015 is likely still 6+ years. Those hired after 2015 will have decreasing wait times for upgrade.

Thanks for the straight forward post. What's your take on the "PML 2.0"?

[rudder]

Thanks for the straight forward post. What's your take on the "PML 2.0"?

Going forward, both AC and WJ are going to have problems staffing their respective regional feed networks in a market with diminishing pilot resources. And this is at a time that AC in particular is looking at its largest and longest pilot hiring cycle in its history which will further deplete the Express pilot rosters.

Each one will have to offer inducements via their regional partners in order to secure the interest of the finite pool of new entrants to the profession. AC may choose to do so by making hiring exclusive from the Express PML. Perhaps it will be something different. Either way, if the Express/Encore aircraft are not staffed then the impact will be felt on the bottom line at AC/WJ.

I would not rule out a strategic acquisition or a new commercial agreement with an existing carrier in order to ensure full pilot staffing in the Express or Encore networks.

[fruitloops]

Not sure it the best topic to post on but i try.

Got a call from jazz for an interview on the 24th feb. I'm captain on bi-turbine making 75k/year, with a family. I also can get 705 time in my company in the next months (dash8), i just don't like the place i live. My question to you guys is :

- What does jazz has to offer in term of career advancement to me, on mid or long term ? As i would not stay at jazz anyway but try to find a "better" job as soon as i can.

Living on 3000$/month with a family in YYZ or YYC to fly dash8 or Q4 seems not really attractive but maybe i'm missing something.

Please feel free to share your thoughts, it'll really help me take a decision.

Cheers

Dunkafa - did you go to the bottom of Jazz or did you do a DEC with Sky or GGN or ? ....as Bieber would say....'where are you now?"

[TheStig]

Alright, so we're approaching the 2 year mark since the start of this thread. Any comments from those who have been involved?

Have things gone as expected? Better? Worse?

I can't imagine voting on the deal or signing onto the PML was an easy decision for most, but have you been satisfied with your choice? Things have been moving swiftly at AC and it seems like most pilots who have come over are pleased to have done so but looking at the numbers it would appear that at least half the pilots on the PML have deferred there employment (or been rejected).

How has the fleet at Jazz changed? I've noticed lots of RJ"s been transfered to GGN, will the Q400 and CRJ900 addtiions offset this or has the hiring been solely due to attrition from the PML?

There was talk of a classic Dash-8 airline at the time, is this still in the works or is it simply a pay scale within the pay scale?

[ThatFliGuyDerr]

Future PML is in the works. The company has said that this time Air Canada will souly dictate the terms of that PML. it is said to be released sometime this fall. That was the last statement from the union a week ago. Lots of vacancies in all bases. Sounds like the terms of the PML will be 70 percent of SC GS will be from all express carriers. But I believe the PML will have to sound good to draw in people to fill the seats at JAZZ,GGN,REGIONAL, Because AC needs 400 guys jazz needs 150 Encore needs 200 Westjet needs 90 and that's just the companies I have friends at. Those numbers are VACANCIES so companies are going to need to get creative to attract people who a shortage like this.

[Art Garfunkel]

This is just my opinion.

I don't think AC will be able to pull that many from the express carriers, as the feed is very important to their growth strategy. They will simply say no to the more senior guys at the regionals to retain experience, as these guys/girls will have no where else to go. Pay will stay low as well. Air Canada in particular has been successful in lowering the amount "years of service pay" at the regionals in the past 3 years.

I believe the new AC PML/PMA will have language that sounds promising to the express carriers, but in reality will be around the 30-40 percent mark. If you want to get on with Air Canada, in my opinion, you're best positioned to be from Encore, Porter, Bearskin, Provincial, or EIC. Complete opposite of what is being sold. Please read the fine print when the agreement gets disclosed.

Art

[dhc#]

This is just my opinion.

I don't think AC will be able to pull that many from the express carriers, as the feed is very important to their growth strategy. They will simply say no to the more senior guys at the regionals to retain experience, as these guys/girls will have no where else to go. Pay will stay low as well. Air Canada in particular has been successful in lowering the amount "years of service pay" at the regionals in the past 3 years.

I believe the new AC PML/PMA will have language that sounds promising to the express carriers, but in reality will be around the 30-40 percent mark. If you want to get on with Air Canada, in my opinion, you're best positioned to be from Encore, Porter, Bearskin, Provincial, or EIC. Complete opposite of what is being sold. Please read the fine print when the agreement gets disclosed.

Art

AC will have to walk a fine line regarding the next PML/PMA, if your scenario plays out, once potential AC regional new hires realize they could end up stuck at JZZ/SKV/GGN, they will avoid them like the plague, especially if they can get hired directly in AC mainline, by staying at the better salaried 704 ops and avoiding the low pay at the regionals.