New TA reached!

[wyndham]

You joined Jazz four years ago, in 2007. So in 1995 when the Picher arbitration award was released, you would have been just going into Grade 7?
Your arrogance is exeeded only by your ignorance. Before picking up someone else's fight, you might want to educate yourself about the relevant facts and issues. The terms of the Picher arbitration contained no binding requirement for merging the two pilot groups. That is a fact. Foxtrot Oscar?

Fact in 1995 I was a commercial pilot, fact it was "Binding arbitration" otherwise there would be no basis for a lawsuit. If it wasn't binding, then why did the Air Canada pilots form ACPA to get out of it?
Foxtrot Oscar, its phonetics, if you still can't figure it out, I'll spell it out for you, let me know. Oh, that might have come across as arrogant.
As for the ignorance, I have read and searched and asked questions to both sides in an effort to understand why someone from one group would hate and despise someone from another group, without even finding out if that person was part of it or just in grade 7 during it. If I'm wrong then I've been mislead. Maybe we should hate all Germans for what happened in 1939-45.

lol WOW I dont think you realise how much of a bitter moron you sound like. Grow up and shut up please, you're polluting this informative thread.

[Gentle Giant]

You joined Jazz four years ago, in 2007. So in 1995 when the Picher arbitration award was released, you would have been just going into Grade 7?
Your arrogance is exeeded only by your ignorance. Before picking up someone else's fight, you might want to educate yourself about the relevant facts and issues. The terms of the Picher arbitration contained no binding requirement for merging the two pilot groups. That is a fact. Foxtrot Oscar?

Fact in 1995 I was a commercial pilot, fact it was "Binding arbitration" otherwise there would be no basis for a lawsuit. If it wasn't binding, then why did the Air Canada pilots form ACPA to get out of it?
Foxtrot Oscar, its phonetics, if you still can't figure it out, I'll spell it out for you, let me know. Oh, that might have come across as arrogant.
As for the ignorance, I have read and searched and asked questions to both sides in an effort to understand why someone from one group would hate and despise someone from another group, without even finding out if that person was part of it or just in grade 7 during it. If I'm wrong then I've been mislead. Maybe we should hate all Germans for what happened in 1939-45.

Why are you so bitter, angry and twisted about this? The events that transpired between the connector pilots and the Air Canada pilots happened way, way before your time - you were not hurt by this and you would not benefit if it was fixed in some way. Relax. Try to think of what you can do to make things better rather than going through your life facing backwards.

[flightster]

QUESTION:

SINCE AC IS ASKING FOR LOWER PAY FOR THE PILOTS WHO OPERATE THE LCC. DID ANYONE BOTHER ASKING IF THE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS, THE SALES STAFF, THE RAMP STAFF AND THE MAINTENANCE STAFF WILL ALSO BE WORKING FOR LESS PAY? BETTER YET, DID ANYONE ASK IF THE EXEXCUTIVES AND MANAGEMENT TEAM WHO WILL BE WORKING AT OR FOR OR UNDER THE NEW LCC WILL ALSO BE PAID LESS!!!! I THINK NOT!!!!! VOTE NO!!!!!!!!

[Gentle Giant]

QUESTION:

SINCE AC IS ASKING FOR LOWER PAY FOR THE PILOTS WHO OPERATE THE LCC. DID ANYONE BOTHER ASKING IF THE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS, THE SALES STAFF, THE RAMP STAFF AND THE MAINTENANCE STAFF WILL ALSO BE WORKING FOR LESS PAY? BETTER YET, DID ANYONE ASK IF THE EXEXCUTIVES AND MANAGEMENT TEAM WHO WILL BE WORKING AT OR FOR OR UNDER THE NEW LCC WILL ALSO BE PAID LESS!!!! I THINK NOT!!!!! VOTE NO!!!!!!!!

First of all - STOP SHOUTING!

Secondly, the LCC was supposed to operate with a separate OC. This would probably mean a separate bunch of minimum wage FAs and contract ground handling. The executives would of course be grossly overpaid as they always are. In case you missed it - we were going to vote "NO" but the vote has been cancelled due to an angry pilot group.

[flightster]

GENTLE G,

I wasn't shouting, my cap locks was on and I was to lazy to take off. I know it was cancelled, but that was my whole point about management not takinging any pay cuts at the new LCC.

P.S. I'm a lover not a hater!!! LOL

Unity will overcome all!

[habs]

Really? Epic EDIT

[fish4life]

wow someone got a PFO from AC

[Inceptive]

[quote="mbav8r
As for the ignorance, I have read and searched and asked questions to both sides in an effort to understand why someone from one group would hate and despise someone from another group, without even finding out if that person was part of it or just in grade 7 during it. If I'm wrong then I've been mislead. Maybe we should hate all Germans for what happened in 1939-45.[/quote]

mbav8r,

You are wrong! And read the rest..
I can't answer your questions on Picher. I WASN'T THERE!
There are probably about 2,500 guys and girls at Air Canada who WEREN'T THERE!
Have we heard the stories about it.. Of course we have, and I guarantee that they wont match
what you've heard, however if you feel that 2,500 pilots hate you for it, I can't help you with that.
Things I've also heard, Canadian stories, OAC stories, guys who want to stay past
60 stories.. If I was to get mad at everything I hear, what a life I would live!
Can you empathize? Of course, but learn from what happened, and try to fix or change the system so it
doesn't happen to you!
Be concerned about your wage, your working conditions, and what you are leaving for those
coming in behind you, for they will be the only ones to stand up for you when everyone else is
gone.
If they succeed, you succeed!

[habs]

EDITED

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

... fact it was "Binding arbitration" otherwise there would be no basis for a lawsuit. If it wasn't binding, then why did the Air Canada pilots form ACPA to get out of it?

You did not read my words carefully. I said, "The terms of the Picher arbitration contained no binding requirement for merging the two pilot groups." The award provided for the merger of the pilot seniority lists, and required the parties to "enter into negotiations" with Air Canada with respect to merger of the various entities. There was no binding requirement that the airlines actually merge. Big, big difference. And all of your assumptions about damages are based the assumption that the "negotiations" would have been successful. Just like the negotiation of the T.A. before the membership now. Dream on.

Like I said, you embarrass yourself when you restate rumour and assumptions as fact. Please spare us the pain of listening to it.

[habs]

ACPA weakness. ACPA "I'll do it Sir!" . EDITED Learn to use the English language to better articulate yourself...

[habs]

EDITED, again.

[Rockie]

Strachan said that Tuesday's meeting will focus on "alternatives, the best way to go forward. What's real, what isn't, does it mean we have to go back to the bargaining table? Are these concerns language issues? Can we sort them out fairly simply by clarifying intent? It's a very complicated agreement by the nature of what we do."

Huh? Language issues? Clarifying intent?

If this is the way our president is actually thinking it looks like we need a new president too.

[habs]

Ciao, thanks for coming out. stl

[rudder]

Strachan said that Tuesday's meeting will focus on "alternatives, the best way to go forward. What's real, what isn't, does it mean we have to go back to the bargaining table? Are these concerns language issues? Can we sort them out fairly simply by clarifying intent? It's a very complicated agreement by the nature of what we do."

Huh? Language issues? Clarifying intent?

If this is the way our president is actually thinking it looks like we need a new president too.

*50% + 1 = 1437

The power belongs to the pilots not the elected reps. Some people tend to forget that fact. Be careful out there - could be more smoke and mirrors coming.

[Inceptive]

Read the Globe today, Calin is right on mark with the fear mongering!

Does ACPA and Calin get together on when to release this crap?

The current CA from 2000, (I know, really current) still stands!
Inform yourself with all of the pertinent information you can, which
is NOT provided by the NC!

[rudder]

Read the Globe today, Calin is right on mark with the fear mongering!

Does ACPA and Calin get together on when to release this crap?

ACPA dropped the ball and now Calin is picking it up. Great teamwork!

[Lost in Saigon]

Read the Globe today, Calin is right on mark with the fear mongering!

Does ACPA and Calin get together on when to release this crap?

The current CA from 2000, (I know, really current) still stands!
Inform yourself with all of the pertinent information you can, which
is NOT provided by the NC!

I wish we still had our TA from 2000. The one we have right now is from 2003 (post CCAA).

Just before CCAA a senior 330 FO would have made $176.42/hr (1/2 day 1/2 night). Right now with our 2003 contract that has dropped to $151.31/hr. If this TA had been accepted, it would have dropped even further to $149.99/hr. (new blended WB FO group pay) With "grandfathering" I think that would be about $160/hr. (old pay +5%)

By March 2015 that would have risen to $161.80, but that is still about 10% less than he would have made 12 years earlier and less than he would have made back in 2000. So basically back to the same pay he made 15 years earlier.

This new TA will never get voted in no matter how much they massage it.

The company thought that there was just enough for each category of pilot to like it just enough to vote for it. But what has actually happened is that there is also just enough bad stuff for each pilot category to collectively say: "Screw this, This is a bad TA!"

[mbav8r]

wyndham
lol WOW I dont think you realise how much of a bitter EDITED you sound like. Grow up and shut up please, you're polluting this informative thread.

wyndham, apparently you have nothing informative, nor constructive to add to this thread, EDITED

Gentle Giant
Why are you so bitter, angry and twisted about this? The events that transpired between the connector pilots and the Air Canada pilots happened way, way before your time - you were not hurt by this and you would not benefit if it was fixed in some way. Relax. Try to think of what you can do to make things better rather than going through your life facing backwards.

To answer that question, you have to walk in the shoes of the Jazz pilot. I didn't start out bitter and twisted, I have been molded by my environment. Try dealing with being shunned because I have a red strap on my bag, which I refuse to remove because, then I would have to carry a sign saying Jazz pilot and proud of it and that would be silly.
Refused a jumpseat, attempts made to have my pass travel degraded or theirs upgraded, comments about how we're too expensive, so to answer that, quid pro quo for Sky regional. Result, managment telling us we have to remain competetive, and that dosen't mean reducing their bonus. Being told by a good friend at AC, our days are numbered, like I said we have a target on our backs and ACPA has the "scope" clause. Despite my cynicism, I try to project and extend goodwill as mentioned, in an earlier post about the jumpseat, it's getting harder and harder to do.

Johnny Mapleleaf
Like I said, you embarrass yourself when you restate rumour and assumptions as fact. Please spare us the pain of listening to it

I'm not embarrassed, but perhaps you might be. http://www.filion.on.ca/uploads/File/pd ... isc002.pdf
Facts
The Canadian Airline Pilots Association ("CALPA") represented the pilots of Air Canada and
Air Ontario at the time the two airlines merged in 1991. On April 5, 1995, Arbitrator Picher
released an arbitration award ordering the merger of the Air Ontario and Air Canada seniority
lists. The Air Canada pilots rejected the Picher award, left CALPA and formed their own union,
the Air Canada Pilots' Associations ("ACPA").
The plaintiffs further argued that the defendants' actions in refusing to accept the
Picher award were unlawful and that the defendants' knew or ought to have known that their
actions would cause injury to the plaintiffs.

http://www.nelligan.ca/e/PDF/ACPAJudgment6499.pdf Read point 3 and 4 of this document carefully for your rumors
and assumptions, specifically the part about the final and binding arbitration.

truedude
To use an example as ridiculous as yours: You think the rest of the world consistently reminds the German's of WWII, or have they decided to leave better enough alone. It's in the past, it can't be changed, so why even bring it up.

Okay, not a good comparison to whats taking place, obviously ACPA pilots are not Nazi germans. Point I was trying to make is that I don't dislike Germans for something that happened decades ago, so why do some, not all, Air Canada pilots dislike me for something that happened when I was just starting out my flying career?
Yes the rest of the world does constantly remind the Germans about that, it's called the Holocaust Memorial Day.
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Lastly, there is some good debate here and made me realize, I've been doing the same thing, not all AC pilots are guilty of what I've been ranting on about, likewise there are certainly some Jazz pilots guilty of same. I hoenstly do hope you get the contract you deserve and we try to move our profession forward. If ALPA is the right fit for what you need to accomplish your goals, then welcome, not, as pointed out, that I have any say in the matter.

[wyndham]

so why do some, not all, Air Canada pilots dislike me for something that happened when I was just starting out my flying career?

probably because in general you come across as a bitter EDITED haha. It's a personal thing, not professional.


Imagine how bitter this guys gonna be in 5,10 yrs. Good luck to the family

[rudder]

He said his preference is to launch the low-cost carrier with the support of Air Canada’s unions. But if they fail to approve of the deal, it would not necessarily mean the end of the LCC plan.

“I wouldn’t say that. At this stage, this is the basis on which we are progressing with this,” he said. “We’ll see what happens after this first stage.”

More threats. Is the current scope language not tight enough to prevent this?

CR is drawing a clearer picture each time he speaks of what the future will look like for an AC pilot. Scary.

http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... pposition/

[sky's the limit]

I'm not sure what they're serving for snacks on AC and Jazz this week, but if you guys can't keep this "debate" civil and within the rules it's gone. There seems to be some good stuff going on here so I will leave it be for now, but Habs has been removed and a couple others are close to being given warnings. If you are foggy on the forum rules please re-read them.

If posts are made that continue to be personal attacks and hateful in nature, please use the "Report" button to let us know.


stl

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

I'm not embarrassed, but perhaps you might be. ... Read point 3 and 4 of this document carefully for your rumors
and assumptions, specifically the part about the final and binding arbitration.

You didn't even read what I posted above. There was no binding requirement to actually merge the various airline entities. The binding part was only with respect to the seniority lists, if the airline components were merged. The Air Canada pilots elected not to complete that merger of the component entities, so there therefore was not even a binding requirement to merge the seniority lists. I know. I was directly involved in the entire process at the time.Your assumptions and restatement of rumours about damages that never occurred are way off base.

Also, your statement about conditions that would have to be met for an eventual acceptance of ACPA pilots into ALPA are also way off base. During the merger between Canadian and Air Canada the issue of which union would represent the merged group was hot and center, with USA ALPA President Duane Woerth showing up in Toronto to throw a big kick-off celebration for ALPA Canada's attempt to get ACPA members to join ALPA, no conditions attached. I was also involved in that.

As I said above, get your facts straight, and spare us your unverified assumptions presented as fact.

[Gentle Giant]

To answer that question, you have to walk in the shoes of the Jazz pilot. I didn't start out bitter and twisted, I have been molded by my environment. Try dealing with being shunned because I have a red strap on my bag, which I refuse to remove because, then I would have to carry a sign saying Jazz pilot and proud of it and that would be silly.

You, of course have no way of knowing this, but I spent a decade at the Regional/Jazz level. I was present from just after Picher and lived through the decertification of Air Canada CALPA and certification of ACPA. I would bet that I have a much better understanding of this issue from either side than you or about 3/4 of the current Jazz pilots. I don't spurn any Jazz pilots I see nor do I make any extraordinary effort to grin, wave, bow or smile. I'm friendly if I make eye-contact but come-on, sometimes I'm just tired or hungry or distracted. My point is that if you are so inclined you can turn every second meeting between the pilots from the two companies into an "Event". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Refused a jumpseat, attempts made to have my pass travel degraded or theirs upgraded, comments about how we're too expensive, so to answer that, quid pro quo for Sky regional.

Things changed when the corporate structure and ownership of Jazz changed. I know you feel like you are an "airline" but you're not. I don't mean that to be insulting, really. Jazz provides aircraft and crews for Air Canada and TC to use in their airline. Chorus does not market itself, set fares, collect revenue (from passengers) plan routes etc etc. Chorus does not even buy their own fuel. All the seats on the aircraft you fly belong to Air Canada or Thomas Cook. I, personally, was in complete agreement with the harmonized pass policy when Jazz was 100% owned by AC but now you're not therefore the pass policy should reflect the new relationship - don't you agree?

Result, managment telling us we have to remain competetive, and that dosen't mean reducing their bonus. Being told by a good friend at AC, our days are numbered, like I said we have a target on our backs and ACPA has the "scope" clause.

The issue is that ACPA has maintained a scope provision that restricts AC to a single (tier 2) CPA agreement. We (ACPA) have used our bargaining capital to, effectively, protect Jazz from competition - you see? If we remove that scope restriction, presumably, we would be able to get a better raise or better benefits but the side effect is, perhaps, some economic pressure on the Jazz/Chorus pilots. Now, seeing as how higher Jazz costs affect our ability to compete with the Westjet crowd and also affect our ability to negotiate a better contract why would we want to do that? Seriously, I asking your opinion, do you really think that ACPA should agree to work for less money and make Air Canada more expensive in order to allow the Jazz pilots to maintain their lifestyle?


Lastly, there is some good debate here and made me realize, I've been doing the same thing, not all AC pilots are guilty of what I've been ranting on about, likewise there are certainly some Jazz pilots guilty of same. I hoenstly do hope you get the contract you deserve and we try to move our profession forward. If ALPA is the right fit for what you need to accomplish your goals, then welcome, not, as pointed out, that I have any say in the matter.

Thank you for these sensible words. I agree. I hope for the best for all of us - it's a tough way to make a living.

[Mig29]

He said his preference is to launch the low-cost carrier with the support of Air Canada’s unions. But if they fail to approve of the deal, it would not necessarily mean the end of the LCC plan.

“I wouldn’t say that. At this stage, this is the basis on which we are progressing with this,” he said. “We’ll see what happens after this first stage.”

More threats. Is the current scope language not tight enough to prevent this?

CR is drawing a clearer picture each time he speaks of what the future will look like for an AC pilot. Scary.

http://business.financialpost.com/2011/ ... pposition/

thanks for the post rudder....to that respect, I have to say that CR is not the first one who has threaten that and will not be the last one! ) I've seen about 3 of these CEOs come and go at AC and since 2000 it has just been the same old guys! Fears, threats, gloomy dooms day promises if people don't sign, end of the world for AC and industry in Canada....bla bla bla....and you know, they seem to succeed every time to 'get' us!!

You know WHY?? Because you guys can't stop bickering and throwing mud at each other even though we are in the same FRIGGING industry!!!!!! Stop this AC vs JAZZ crap, because I for sure wasn't the one who has forced AC and Canadian together, I wasn't there when Jazz become one main regional company, and I sure wasn't in charge when AC took and just to spin it off few years later along with Aeroplan, AC Vacation, Maintenance etc.....and I wasn't the one who created AC Express either.....but I still don't hate those guys there either....(except that I would rather stayed at Porter for MORE money if I was them).

We are all in one big pot, and if piss too much in it, it sure ain't going to be better for us all....Help and support each other and smile when you bump into each other at the airport....because you never know if that guys is going to be doing your interview if your company disappears over night ...

I'M OUT!!

ps. Kudos to AC boys and gals for slamming down this TA/get rid of your union clowns while the iron is still hot!