Pilot Arrested, Suspected of Being Drunk

BlueSkies12 · Post by **BlueSkies12** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:54 pm

Cat Driver: Be careful in your assumptions and thinking that the issue is merely one of being able to control an addiction because it is destructive therefore one can just quit on a whim and even more important thinking that punishment is the answer

I am so confused by your way of thinking you've almost left me speechless. But I guess if it wasn't for people like you this forum board would be pretty boring. I'm sorry for your problems in the past but when you have a high stress job where peoples lives are at risk, you have to be responsible enough to stay sober on the job. I know you're just going to respond to this by preaching about alcoholism, but it's true. If you don't believe so then we'll see how you feel when 100's of people are killed because of an accident due to an intoxicated pilot. And if the pilot lives then I think you'll be the only one who thinks that he doesn't deserve to be punished. Can you do me a favour and delicately remove your head from your ass.

Kilo-Kilo · Post by **Kilo-Kilo** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:33 pm

cyyz wrote:
Or conversely...

Co-Pilot - "Can we make it in?"

Pilot - "Hell no, but we're gonna land the bloody plane, break minimums we need to get in so I can clock out and get a bloody drink!"

This is exactly the scenario where the other posters like Cat Driver said it would be safer to avoid by pooring a couple down the gullet before take-off so your statement of....

cyyz wrote:
So, fly with the alcoholic pilot(doesn't mean they're drunk 24/7 sorry)

....supports the conclusion you wrote above. The jonesing alcoholic pilot wants down for some booze. Remember this has been the constant of the whole argument - wanting a drink vs. having a couple to calm nerves - Illegal.

cyyz wrote: or

fly with the pilot who know's he's flying over weight, under fueled, poorly maintained aircraft?

Again illegal and again, if you don't know the situation that's one thing, but the questions are posed as if you know. You might as well tell me my other alternative is getting in a Caravan when I can see the ice on the wings, as if the consequences (to me, not to mention the other passengers) are out of my control.

cyyz wrote: and as for taking the train, good luck crossing the ocean(NA - EU or Asia-NA) in one of those

... now you're just splitting hairs. You forgot to throw in Mars or the moon.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:48 pm

Blue skies I'm sorry I confuse you.

" I know you're just going to respond to this by preaching about alcoholism, but it's true. If you don't believe so then we'll see how you feel when 100's of people are killed because of an accident due to an intoxicated pilot. And if the pilot lives then I think you'll be the only one who thinks that he doesn't deserve to be punished. Can you do me a favour and delicately remove your head from your ass. "

The history of alcohol addicted pilots is quite well documented, however the history of one actually killing a plane load of people is slim to the best of my knowlege.

I have been posting here for years and I defy you to find anywhere where I have preached about alcoholism, I am only commenting here because that is the subject.

You are not impressing me with the remove my head from my ass comment as it shows a lack of respect for your coleauges who may be your elders in more ways than just age..

Cat

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:51 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
...There are many of my colleauges who did not, will not, or can not overcome the addiction and some of them are the best pilots that ever strapped on an aircraft.

Cat

And who, regardless, should not have been flying with a blood alcohol level over the legal limit. Surely you must agree with that.

Heart-felt anecdotes aside, we both know, I think, that anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it with the authorities when it comes down to a determination of whether rules have been broken and the public endangered.

The risk that on a particular day, at a particular time, a random factor intervenes and creates a tragedy that would not have occurred had the fella been sober means that it is incumbent on the industry to control those factors that are not random and that are indeed controllable. And one of those is to do the utmost to ensure that sobriety rules in the cockpit.

...or at the wheel of a bus (i.e. Greyhound), train or transport truck, each of which jobs also comes with strict sobriety rules for the same reasons.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:57 pm

Kilo Kilo you said:

" Are you calling my judgement and flying into question? Are you making an assumption of my age and/or experience? "

Kilo Kilo , read what I typed.

I said: ::

" ...for the sake of safety I sure hope your new teachers do a better job of teaching you how to think than they are doing with teaching you how to fly.

Generally speaking of course. "

I was making a general obversation regarding flight training, not regarding you personally.

Cat

Kilo-Kilo · Post by **Kilo-Kilo** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:00 pm

TorontoGuy wrote: And who, regardless, should not have been flying with a blood alcohol level over the legal limit..

And we all remember what the legal limit for pilots is doen't we? And why does it seem like we're asking for the world when all we want is an airworthy plane with a sober pilot? Is it because that's what TC wants so you have to object?

Kilo-Kilo · Post by **Kilo-Kilo** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:01 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
I was making a general obversation regarding flight training, not regarding you personally.

Cat

Check!

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:03 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
The history of alcohol addicted pilots is quite well documented, however the history of one actually killing a plane load of people is slim to the best of my knowlege.

Cat

Something I found on your point:

While the rate of alcohol-related accidents is low, they are frequently deadly. A review of accidents the NTSB determined to be alcohol-related found 33 such accidents in 1996-2001. About 70 percent of those accidents involved fatalities, and in only two did any occupant escape unharmed. Thirty-six people died.

http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/184515-1.html

Kilo-Kilo · Post by **Kilo-Kilo** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:07 pm

That would be a...

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:10 pm

My remark regarding drunk pilots crashing was aimed at the airline sector of aviation, and I have not heard of to many findings of that being the cause.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:12 pm

Cat Driver wrote:My remark regarding drunk pilots crashing was aimed at the airline sector of aviation, and I have not heard of to many findings of that being the cause.

Quite so, and exactly what that article I linked to shows.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:18 pm

A really interesting study on the whole thing by researchers last year at Johns Hopkins concluded:

Researchers at Johns Hopkins have found that nighttime flying and worsening weather conditions are two key characteristics of fatal plane crashes in general aviation where alcohol consumption by the pilot was also a factor.

The Johns Hopkins team found that most alcohol-related plane crashes, 52 percent, occurred during nighttime hours, between 7 p.m. and 6 a.m. In contrast, most non-alcohol-related plane crashes, 72 percent, occurred during the day, between 7 a.m. and 6 p.m. Statistics also showed that 64 percent of alcohol-related crashes occurred in worsening weather conditions, such as rain or fog, which force the pilot to switch from visual flight rules to instrument flying.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_re ... 06_05.html

and that same study report, Cat, supports what you believed: "there are no cases where alcohol has been implicated as a probable cause in a fatal crash of a major U.S. airline."

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:24 pm

Kilo-Kilo wrote:That would be a...

No, not at all. Read the article I linked to. Alcohol-related accidents in aviation are low. The problem with them is that when they do occur, they're usually fatal.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:34 pm

Injecting for a moment just a touch of levity and a totally different twist on things... this from a U.S. study done just after 9/11:

"It seems to me that if you go out and get a DUI, you're demonstrating risky behavior and poor judgment," said McFadden, an interesting perspective in light of the current debate about whether pilots should be allowed to carry guns."

http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/2002 ... 0714p2.asp

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:02 pm

The issue of problem drinking is something that varies from individual to individual, some are more accident prone than others. There are many addicted professionals in many occupations including doctors and nurses and many are hard to detect as they learn to cope with addiction and work.

I never did find out where my safety limit would have been compromized to the point that I made a judgement or action that resulted in an accident and never wish to.

However I am quite certain that had I not quit drinking I would probably have been forced to quit flying eventually because of it.

For those who misunderstand my thoughts on the subject of alcholism please allow me to clarify it.

I have been through it and figured out the answer to what I needed to do and it has no importance in my life as I have no intention nor need to drink period, and I do not wish to preach to anyone.

It is your life to live and how you live it is no concern of mine.

BlueSkies12 · Post by **BlueSkies12** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:53 am

Thanks for the link TorontoGuy, that was interesting.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:54 am

It is best to allow at least 24 hours between the last drink and takeoff time

lol

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:07 pm

Not sure why you laugh. If you've been drinking heavily, 24 hours to clear your system is accurate.

Kilo-Kilo · Post by **Kilo-Kilo** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:41 pm

Perhaps the results would be different if the SIM was in a herc at 9000 ASL compared to whatever elevation the test took place.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:15 pm

cpl_atc wrote:
TorontoGuy wrote: He said that their tests were fine enough to detect and demonstrate that even one drink resulted in a degree of impairment relative to the high degree of alertness a pilot needs.
Perhaps in the Ivory tower that's the case, but... Flying did a thing a few years ago where they had the editors in a sim (a Lear, I think) and had them consume a drink, do a sim run, consume a drink, do a run, etc....

The first several drinks did not result in any noticeable performance decline under normal circumstances in the sim. I.e. routine flying, no emergencies.

Contrary to the study referenced above, their point was to show that it is possible to still be quite proficient in a plane even after a few drinks. Obviously this fact can serve as a trap by allowing someone to think they can get away with flying a bit buzzed. (which I suppose you can, until an emergency crops up, or whatever...)

Where do you get the idea that his comment was Ivory Tower stuff?! You didn't read my post carefully. The comment came from the guy who gave me my Cat 3 medical this week. He had been chief medical examiner for a major airline and was describing his experience there. Frontline experience, not ivory tower stuff. I was very clear on that in my original post.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:20 pm

Kilo-Kilo wrote:Perhaps the results would be different if the SIM was in a herc at 9000 ASL compared to whatever elevation the test took place.

Or a car stopped in a spotcheck. No impairment after a few drinks? Come on! Who believes that! Is he actually trying to justify drinking and flying(driving?)

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:46 pm

TorontoGuy wrote:Not sure why you laugh. If you've been drinking heavily, 24 hours to clear your system is accurate.

For "heavily" the AIM states 48 hours should be taken.....

So a glass of wine for dinner, and you shouldn't be flying in the morning!!!

Kilo-Kilo · Post by **Kilo-Kilo** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:53 pm

cyyz wrote: So a glass of wine for dinner, and you shouldn't be flying in the morning!!!

Substitute "glass" with "tumbler". (insert happy smiley imoticon here)