Flair Pilots

[averageatbest]

Nope, supporting other pilots is far more dumb than paranoia and conspiracy!

I don't know why you are arguing against your own argument.

I think that ALPA should be negotiating some sort of seniority transfer from airline to airline. At a glance it sounds like it would screw over those who are giving up bargaining capital for it, but in the end it's better for the industry.

Our current system locks pilots into their current carriers. Unlike other industries where you can get a better offer elsewhere and move up (much like our CEOs do), pilots are forced back into unlivable wages if they move.

When pilots are locked in, wages can be suppressed because there is still enough of a pool of less qualified pilots willing to be recruited. When seniority can be transferred, the game goes from "recruit and captured" to "recruit and retain."

[link821]

Nope, supporting other pilots is far more dumb than paranoia and conspiracy!

I don't know why you are arguing against your own argument.

I think that ALPA should be negotiating some sort of seniority transfer from airline to airline. At a glance it sounds like it would screw over those who are giving up bargaining capital for it, but in the end it's better for the industry.

Our current system locks pilots into their current carriers. Unlike other industries where you can get a better offer elsewhere and move up (much like our CEOs do), pilots are forced back into unlivable wages if they move.

When pilots are locked in, wages can be suppressed because there is still enough of a pool of less qualified pilots willing to be recruited. When seniority can be transferred, the game goes from "recruit and captured" to "recruit and retain."

Nailed it!

[Vanguard]

Clearly some of you are so new to this industry that there is lack of understanding. Before you come up with these silly ideas take some time to read the ALPA Manual and what it states on Seniority.

What you’re asking for is called meritocracy. If we did have they then yes rather than seniority, experience would dictate wages but know that is also not a great system at time especially when your dads is the 777 CA at AC in management and the other guys parent is a high-school teacher or Doctor or they just work at Tim Hortons.

[Hangry]

They’ll grow up one day.

[MaxAuto]

If I spent years establishing senority to better my QOL at an airline, I don't want my union or company bringing someone with more equivalent hours (whether slightly or significantly more) taking a spot above me. Senority existing for a reason in the pilot airline ranks. It's a system that works. Not perfect, but works.

Go work at Buffalo Airways if you want that system.

[link821]

I don’t think they were suggesting someone gets to bring their date of of hire along with them to any airline they wish to join, but rather one would be financially compensated for their experience level while still sliding in at the bottom of the list.

[cdnavater]

Nope, supporting other pilots is far more dumb than paranoia and conspiracy!

I don't know why you are arguing against your own argument.

I think that ALPA should be negotiating some sort of seniority transfer from airline to airline. At a glance it sounds like it would screw over those who are giving up bargaining capital for it, but in the end it's better for the industry.

Our current system locks pilots into their current carriers. Unlike other industries where you can get a better offer elsewhere and move up (much like our CEOs do), pilots are forced back into unlivable wages if they move.

When pilots are locked in, wages can be suppressed because there is still enough of a pool of less qualified pilots willing to be recruited. When seniority can be transferred, the game goes from "recruit and captured" to "recruit and retain."

Sorry, I don’t use emojis very often, it was sarcasm.

[cdnavater]

I don’t think they were suggesting someone gets to bring their date of of hire along with them to any airline they wish to join, but rather one would be financially compensated for their experience level while still sliding in at the bottom of the list.

Yes, I very clearly said for pay, but as soon as you refer to DOH, people get their panties in a bunch and become stupid.

[CFM Symphony]

I don’t think they were suggesting someone gets to bring their date of of hire along with them to any airline they wish to join, but rather one would be financially compensated for their experience level while still sliding in at the bottom of the list.

Yes, I very clearly said for pay, but as soon as you refer to DOH, people get their panties in a bunch and become stupid.

Do you think airlines care whether you have 5,000 or 25,000hrs? The result of your idea would be that as you gain experience you become less and less desirable for employment, because you’d become more and more expensive - the opposite of the outcome you’re hoping for.

[hithere]

In the US new hires are skipping pay steps and getting higher starting salaries/higher signing bonuses/direct entry Captain based on previous experience. Of course they still go to the bottom of the list so while they might get DEC their schedule is crap for quite some time as internal FOs get upgraded and parachute in ahead of them. But the system of recognition for previous experience does exist. Whether it will make its way north of the border is anyone's guess. The irony is that if Flair was to go under, it would temporarily flood the market with pilots and therefore negate the need for such a system

[cdnavater]

I don’t think they were suggesting someone gets to bring their date of of hire along with them to any airline they wish to join, but rather one would be financially compensated for their experience level while still sliding in at the bottom of the list.

Yes, I very clearly said for pay, but as soon as you refer to DOH, people get their panties in a bunch and become stupid.

Do you think airlines care whether you have 5,000 or 25,000hrs? The result of your idea would be that as you gain experience you become less and less desirable for employment, because you’d become more and more expensive - the opposite of the outcome you’re hoping for.

No, the airline do NOT care, a bare ATPL will do them just fine, it’s up to us to care. It has been discussed in other threads and I firmly believe someone who comes to the company with 5000hrs should be paid more than 1500.
The problem becomes where to draw the line, maybe per 1000 PIC is one year step up to year 5, but the companies would certainly need convincing.
The reality is, the only thing that will increase pay for experienced pilots is the lack of them.

[Floop]

Yes, I very clearly said for pay, but as soon as you refer to DOH, people get their panties in a bunch and become stupid.

Do you think airlines care whether you have 5,000 or 25,000hrs? The result of your idea would be that as you gain experience you become less and less desirable for employment, because you’d become more and more expensive - the opposite of the outcome you’re hoping for.

No, the airline do NOT care, a bare ATPL will do them just fine, it’s up to us to care. It has been discussed in other threads and I firmly believe someone who comes to the company with 5000hrs should be paid more than 1500.
The problem becomes where to draw the line, maybe per 1000 PIC is one year step up to year 5, but the companies would certainly need convincing.
The reality is, the only thing that will increase pay for experienced pilots is the lack of them.

1000 PIC? 1000 turbine PIC? 1000 jet pic?

How do you quantify? Do you count 1000 hours instructor on the same level as a 1000 hour 737 SIC?

[cdnavater]

Do you think airlines care whether you have 5,000 or 25,000hrs? The result of your idea would be that as you gain experience you become less and less desirable for employment, because you’d become more and more expensive - the opposite of the outcome you’re hoping for.

No, the airline do NOT care, a bare ATPL will do them just fine, it’s up to us to care. It has been discussed in other threads and I firmly believe someone who comes to the company with 5000hrs should be paid more than 1500.
The problem becomes where to draw the line, maybe per 1000 PIC is one year step up to year 5, but the companies would certainly need convincing.
The reality is, the only thing that will increase pay for experienced pilots is the lack of them.

1000 PIC? 1000 turbine PIC? 1000 jet pic?

How do you quantify? Do you count 1000 hours instructor on the same level as a 1000 hour 737 SIC?

Ok, how bout multi-pic?
To answer your question, no, I did however prefer to hire multi-ifr instructors over equal time single engine bush pilots(sorry to offend bush pilots).
Same as the ATPL used to be, count SIC at 1/2 for the same formula.
But again, I realize no one cares and the only thing that will fix the wage problems is a shortage of skill, so I’m happy to let young pilots sort this out. I’m nearing the end of my career and although I was told back in 1990 that the shortage was coming, this is the first time it’s been close to reality.
One caveat, every time it’s been close over the last three decades, some type of economic catastrophe fixes it for the companies. Watch what happens in the US, the companies are already starting to report possible loses, if one of the big ones fail, shortage gone.
I would definitely not be moving right now if you have a good seat, strap in!

[the_new_guy]

Fellow aviators,

With all the uncertainty and speculation swirling around the industry in the last 48 hours and the many questions you all may have. I just wanted to create this thread in support of you and let you know that other pilots are hoping that positive news is the end result.

Regardless of the business model, you all have families and bills to take care of on the twilight of Covid, which was already decimating. As hard as it will be in the coming days and the noise that is in the media, take care of each other and try to limit any noise from interference in the flight deck. Focus on getting your passengers safely to destination.

O

Figured I'd just remind everyone on this thread of what the intended goal was. This here .

To the original poster, thanks. It's much appreciated and classy of you.

I don't pretend this situation is resolved, but I do hope we pull through, and I think we will. I like the idea of flair, I enjoy working here and I'm not the exception. Day in and out pilots in the flight deck are great to fly with, bring in a positive vibe and are true professionals like I'm sure most other pilots flying for other airlines witness themselves just about everyday.

There's no difference between an AC, Westjet, Transat, Porter or Flair pilot. The colour on your plane, the business model, but that's it. That's the way I see it anyway. I wish all pilot groups get what they deserve, and get to have a career at their desired carrier.

Cheers