As a family man myself I resent your characterization of the situation, you know what 50-60 olds have, grandchildren and years of missed holidays to make up for. Besides, even without grandchildren, my “kids” still came home for Christmas morning ever since they left home. That may change where we go visit them for the holidays but it’s absurd that you think someone who reaches an age doesn’t have a reason to have the holidays off, you’re the selfish one in this situation!
Seniority is what it is, you have none and get nothing, then you get some and someone junior to you resents you for using it, great system!
Sounds like you made a great decision to go to WJ, you would have been miserable in a seniority system
Not really what I was trying to say. I get that in a seniority based position you pay your dues for years and end up hopefully getting what you want later on in your career. And you definitely should in that system.
I’m sure I would have been miserable in a seniority based system. Hence why I chose WJ. I don’t want to wait many years to finally get a schedule that suits my family. No guarantee I’ll even be around by then.
The bidding system at WJ isn’t perfect but I find there are many options with something for everyone. Generally I’ve heard most seem to get what they want. Obviously there will be a few times you won’t get everything you want. As a commuter I bid check in and check out, days off I want and 4-5 day pairings. So far it’s worked out really well for me.
Hopefully this system stays for the long run. It gets me going when I hear a senior coworker who has benefited almost their entire career on a socialized bidding system say they now want a seniority system. Seems a little selfish to me.
Quite often, schedule satisfaction is directly correlated to pairing quality. Bad pairings = bad schedules.
Some airlines/positions fare better than others when it comes to pairings which are also ultimately derived from city pairs and frequency.
garfield wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:24 pm
If you're a widebody captain on WB at AC or WJ can you afford a house in YYZ or YVR?
Depends what the Court ordered payments are for your ex's and child support! Thanks to the antiquated "Family Court system"..may as well be a 703 Skipper...and live in a van...down by the river!!
smooth wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:28 am
You probably never work for AC correct? I just check each fleet's schedule, and even with some junior FO, it's 12-14 days working on the narrow body. Wide body RP are working less than 14 days and laying over in Rome, Vienna, Lisbon...etc
People are making shit up, in my last company one captain told me flat pay at AC is $40k why would I want to go there?!?!
man people need to update their info
The newest captain on 737 is 2022 hire just FYI
Curiousflyer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:32 pm
AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.
To further prove my point, blockhokders 1 and 2 on the YYZ 737 CA list for September, are working 17 and 18 days respectively. Both have 25+ years with AC.
Curiousflyer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:49 am
To further prove my point, blockhokders 1 and 2 on the YYZ 737 CA list for September, are working 17 and 18 days respectively. Both have 25+ years with AC.
Absolutely disgusting.
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Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
Curiousflyer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:49 am
To further prove my point, blockhokders 1 and 2 on the YYZ 737 CA list for September, are working 17 and 18 days respectively. Both have 25+ years with AC.
This will just get ignored and the same a Canada "just go to air Canada" chants will keep going like they have in recent years.
Everyone should hope AC pilots get huge quality of life improvements in their next contract. Currently much of the contract is useful for companies pitching "well at least the schedule is better than AC"
This is just from what I've gathered and I'm sure there are far more details. I could be getting this wrong.
I recently saw on another post that reserve at WJ extended from 2017 at YYC? How long does it actually take to get off reserve at YYC/YEG?
The AC pensions is only marginally better than WJ. The old DB pension is significantly better however, that is no longer available to new hire pilots at AC. The retirement contributions at WestJet are 10% while AC is 11.5%. WestJet is more versatile while AC is locked into a pension until retirement with more restrictions on withdrawals, beneficiaries, etc.
This is just from what I've gathered and I'm sure there are far more details. I could be getting this wrong.
I recently saw on another post that reserve at WJ extended from 2017 at YYC? How long does it actually take to get off reserve at YYC/YEG?
I’m a new hire in at WJ in YEG. I’ve heard that getting off reserve is not long at all here. Time will tell but I’ve been told it can take as little as less than a year.
This is just from what I've gathered and I'm sure there are far more details. I could be getting this wrong.
I recently saw on another post that reserve at WJ extended from 2017 at YYC? How long does it actually take to get off reserve at YYC/YEG?
I’m a new hire in at WJ in YEG. I’ve heard that getting off reserve is not long at all here. Time will tell but I’ve been told it can take as little as less than a year.
garfield wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:43 am
Are you flying less days at WJ than AC?
Generally speaking yes, especially considering AC has training outside the block. So every 4 months an AC pilot will work an extra day or two. For example, an AC pilot would do 16 days of flying and 2 days of sim training. WJ would do 14 days of flying and 2 days of sim training. An AC pilot is paid more for the extra sim days, but still technically working more.
Without wadding into the mud I'll throw my personal experience at WJ. Been here 16+ years. Since having kids (12 years ago) I've worked 1 Christmas. The pay until recently left a serious sour taste in your mouth. That's fixed, massive improvement!!!!
For the moment WJ pays top dollar, AC will pass that. (Pattern based bargaining for the win).
AC also has a pension, ours is TBD. Although you're now given 10% of your income to do as you see fit so there's that. Pension incoming. Details to follow.
Our benifets are not as good.
I suspect flat pay will be gone next CA at AC, for comparision our First year FOs net around $5500 with perdium a month.
Scheduling....depends what base you get, time of year etc. Overall I'm a very vocal fan of socialized bidding. I generally get my days off OR destinations. Rarely both. Where else as a new employee can you get the opportunity to have major holidays off? Or trade with other pilots? Don't like your schedule- trade. Can't do that at AC, hope that changes for them. It's wicked.
Reserve - shorter duration and better rules at WJ. Again for now.
Bottom line: AC is the prestigious mapple leaf, the long haul many type airline with lots of potential.
WJ is lifestyle with (for now) industry leading pay in Canada, also with great potential. If you like sun flying there's lots of it.
Both are great choices.
I did hear since our new CA we're losing a lot less WJ mainline pilots to AC, and some CXD thier AC courses and elected to stay.
Good luck to all - it's a great time to hold an ATPL
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The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
garfield wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:43 am
Are you flying less days at WJ than AC?
That depends. I usually work 11 days if I get my NAS turns, some are down to 9. Others 16 regularly - depends on base and time of year, single days vs multi day pairings. I'd say my average over the last decade is 13 days a month. Training inside the block helps too.
---------- ADS -----------
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
garfield wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:43 am
Are you flying less days at WJ than AC?
I didn't think so, but on reading this thread, apparently yes.
I've only ever worked 16 days when I've bid cushy pairings with long layovers in CUN, BGI, UVF, etc. Otherwise it's pretty consistently 14. If you bid high credit 1 days (I did this as an FO years ago), you can get down to 10 pretty easily. (Pre- duty regs, pilots could work as few as 8 but those 10+ hr days are now gone.) Even the YVR pilots that bid ~6hr 1 days work about 12 day's/month.
garfield wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:43 am
Are you flying less days at WJ than AC?
That depends. I usually work 11 days if I get my NAS turns, some are down to 9. Others 16 regularly - depends on base and time of year, single days vs multi day pairings. I'd say my average over the last decade is 13 days a month. Training inside the block helps too.
How many days/month are you doing now? 13/month is pretty good.
garfield wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:43 am
Are you flying less days at WJ than AC?
That depends. I usually work 11 days if I get my NAS turns, some are down to 9. Others 16 regularly - depends on base and time of year, single days vs multi day pairings. I'd say my average over the last decade is 13 days a month. Training inside the block helps too.
How many days/month are you doing now? 13/month is pretty good.
9-12 days a month for people bidding single days. The odd month you won't get what you ask for and can expect a redeye pairing or two. Also depends if you need to bid for days off, as that takes away some weight to your pairings requests.
