So over at TransAt.......PAY ATTENTION!

[rudder]

Sounds like this whole lanyard issue is a little myopic. Was the red pen effort used years ago a successful tactic?

I wear my red lanyard but I’m certainly not going to insult or berate anyone else that doesn’t. It’s just a symbol of support after all.

I have no dog in this fight but my experience tells me that all of the guns need to be pointed outwards not inwards for a successful outcome. Management is watching and loves to see pilots squabbling with each other. That has been their recipe for success for 20 years and results in 51% ratifications of marginal TA’s.

This process is going to take a while, particularly if the goal is truly a “world class contract”. Don’t let impatience resulting in infighting become an impediment to achieving that objective.

[unionism101]

Sounds like this whole lanyard issue is a little myopic. Was the red pen effort used years ago a successful tactic?

I wear my red lanyard but I’m certainly not going to insult or berate anyone else that doesn’t. It’s just a symbol of support after all.

Take a look at the pilots with the best contracts in the world

Was there any farting around with them when it came to lanyards?

Friends tell friends when they are being stupid. So yes, tell your peers to put on their damn lanyard

[altiplano]

That's it. Behave like United and Delta if you want United and Delta like results.

It's really fucking easy. The MEC has asked everyone to do something very very simple here: wear the lanyard.

Is that seriously too much? If you can't follow your leadership for one simple thing that they have said is important, something they went up against the company on, how can you be expected to really follow them when the chips are down and shit really hits the fan?

The company sees it. "Half the pilots wouldn't even put on a lanyard when their leadership told then to, they're going to fold like cheap shirts on their demands when we lock them out."

Symbols of solidarity are important because it translates to the calculations at the table and the discussions in the executive dining room.

If they see 5000 of us shoulder to shoulder with WCC lanyards, following Charlene and the MEC, following our MEC's direction, the company will be the ones folding at the table. They will calculate it's a fight that they don't want to take, they will know that they can't break us.

If everyone stops answering their phones on days off, stops helping them cover flying, the bottom line will be hit, guys at the top will start asking questions and the company's calculation will be to get the deal done, pay the pilots, we can't let this drag into Spring Break or Q3.

Doing these things will get us a better deal and get it to us sooner and with less disruption to our paycheques.

Not showing the company that you follow your MEC and that you don't stand in solidarity hurts all of us.

The stakes here are in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The stakes here are your standard of living and quality of life for the rest of your career.

Your leaders and your united brothers and sisters are screaming for you to join them and help us all earn the contract we all want and deserve.

It takes effort and lifting from every one of us for this to happen. Solidarity isn't something you can watch around you, it's something you have to be a part of.

[RippleRock]

There are a different breed of pilots on this side of the border. It's sad but true.

I carefully re-read the posts in this thread and there seems a half dozen that are "triggered" by the simple ask to wear the red lanyard. A half dozen on this forum actually posting means hundreds others flying the line that are acting the same. This is an abomination. There is NO WAY Delta pilots would NOT DO what their union asks of them. Look at where they are now, and look at where we are. EXACTLY. We were asked to wear the red lanyard, and there is NO excuse not to unless you truly believe this set of negotiations is a --wasted effort-- and Charlene does NOT have your best interest at heart.

The problem is, as Alti pointed out, is that UNLESS WE PUT ON A UNIFIED FRONT as asked, we are doomed. Full stop.

For those resistant to putting it on, I ask, "What is --your-- endgame?' What is your plan? Have you got this all sorted, so that "your path forward" to improving your quality of life and pay is the right one, and Charlene somehow has it all wrong? Or are you feeling guilty that the Company maybe pays you too much, or doesn't work you enough, having pension indexing stripped away isn't a big deal, the complete lack of a Commuter policy is just fine, or the 10% Cargo decrease isn't worth fighting for, or the B1's didn't really matter that much to you? Maybe you think ACPA had it "all sorted" with that last MOA and was about to use that "massive stockpile of dry powder" and "drawers full of letters of goodwill" that are now wasted, and that trusting a group of colluding traitors to "do us right" after 20 years of "backroom dealing" resulting in utter failure time after time was the "better play". Maybe you think 2% per year is just fine while continuing inflation absolutely destroys your paycheck and jeopardizes any future financial plans or hopes to have any significant purchases paid off....ever.

I'll let you in on a little secret. ACPA is DEAD. Any "powder" or "goodwill letters" died with them and they aren't ever coming back. Your new Union, ALPA and complying with their direct asks is your ONLY way to WACON redemption. Full stop.

For the record, our WACON is the worst of all Legacy Carriers on the Continent. PERIOD.

The ONLY WAY....ONLY WAY forward is to come together as ONE and stand up and fight. If you don't, you and I and everybody else will LOSE. Don't underestimate how bad that loss will be. You think you will make it up on VO? That's purely a fools errand. You and your family could be out to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, and literally hundreds of days more work -away from your family- and any leisure activities you enjoy over the span of your career.

Still think it's worth it not to comply with a simple Union request? Watch and see how it works out. This isn't a threat or bullying, it's just a simple fact. It's the way negotiations with Unions work. This is the time to make what will be likely the most impactful change to the way you live your life and how you are compensated for the time you work. DON'T BLOW IT.

[altiplano]

Right!?

I'd like to hear the reasoning from those of you that won't represent. Why don't you want to support your Association and colleagues on something so important.

- I'm spiteful and don't like ALPA
- i don't like the lanyard material
- I'm not a lanyard guy
- I'm pro-company and don't support us achieving gains
- I own 15000 AC shares I bought at $40 and that's my priority
- I'm too apathetic to reach out and get one
- I'm a coward and I don't want Murray to see me wearing it, just like I don't want other pilots to see my comments requesting VO in ReportLink

Or is it something else?

Whatever it is, it doesn't cut it. You are hurting yourself, your colleagues, and this profession by not being engaged and in solidarity with your peers. Get on board.

[kiaszceski]

Don't you guys have a private Telegram or Signal or FB page you can encourage your peers to do what's right and follow Charlene directives?
Seems flying the flag is worth sitting on a 60% raise... oh well.

[eyebrow737]

Right!?

I'd like to hear the reasoning from those of you that won't represent. Why don't you want to support your Association and colleagues on something so important.

- I'm spiteful and don't like ALPA
- i don't like the lanyard material
- I'm not a lanyard guy
- I'm pro-company and don't support us achieving gains
- I own 15000 AC shares I bought at $40 and that's my priority
- I'm too apathetic to reach out and get one
- I'm a coward and I don't want Murray to see me wearing it, just like I don't want other pilots to see my comments requesting VO in ReportLink

Or is it something else?

Whatever it is, it doesn't cut it. You are hurting yourself, your colleagues, and this profession by not being engaged and in solidarity with your peers. Get on board.

Let me be clear. I've been in this game coming up 40 years now. I've seen the current attitude here a few times before. I wear the ALPA lanyard, and personally am excited to see what they can do for us..finally.

What I do have a problem with is the people coming out of the woodwork thinking that bullying, intimidating and threatening their peers for something as small as wearing a colored fabric around their neck will have a positive effect.

You may not think it, is that, but let me tell you, if you don't think that the verbiage used in this thread is not the above you are fully in the middle of the PROBLEM.
We are treading down the same path of another much larger (now almost defunct airline) I worked for many years ago. There was a toxic culture very much the same as what I am seeing here. It ended up turning a great place to work with the best WACON in the world into a pile of steaming dung.

Most of you probably haven't been around long enough to see these cycles and degradations, but I can tell you now, AC is in the middle of it.

Maybe you all should start thinking about the bigger picture. You think we are going to get a world class contract? here in Canada? you're having a laugh. This will never change, you know why? Because of this cycle we are all stuck in, that is the Canadian mindset. Change that, and we will have a chance.

[fish4life]

So has anyone heard what the difference between the 2 AT fa contract offers ?

[RippleRock]

Right!?

I'd like to hear the reasoning from those of you that won't represent. Why don't you want to support your Association and colleagues on something so important.

- I'm spiteful and don't like ALPA
- i don't like the lanyard material
- I'm not a lanyard guy
- I'm pro-company and don't support us achieving gains
- I own 15000 AC shares I bought at $40 and that's my priority
- I'm too apathetic to reach out and get one
- I'm a coward and I don't want Murray to see me wearing it, just like I don't want other pilots to see my comments requesting VO in ReportLink

Or is it something else?

Whatever it is, it doesn't cut it. You are hurting yourself, your colleagues, and this profession by not being engaged and in solidarity with your peers. Get on board.

Let me be clear. I've been in this game coming up 40 years now. I've seen the current attitude here a few times before. I wear the ALPA lanyard, and personally am excited to see what they can do for us..finally.

What I do have a problem with is the people coming out of the woodwork thinking that bullying, intimidating and threatening their peers for something as small as wearing a colored fabric around their neck will have a positive effect.

You may not think it, is that, but let me tell you, if you don't think that the verbiage used in this thread is not the above you are fully in the middle of the PROBLEM.
We are treading down the same path of another much larger (now almost defunct airline) I worked for many years ago. There was a toxic culture very much the same as what I am seeing here. It ended up turning a great place to work with the best WACON in the world into a pile of steaming dung.

Most of you probably haven't been around long enough to see these cycles and degradations, but I can tell you now, AC is in the middle of it.

Maybe you all should start thinking about the bigger picture. You think we are going to get a world class contract? here in Canada? you're having a laugh. This will never change, you know why? Because of this cycle we are all stuck in, that is the Canadian mindset. Change that, and we will have a chance.

You are coming on this forum voluntarily so you should expect a response. Your 40 year opinion will be followed by a 25 year opinion, mine.

If you are wearing a red lanyard, or at minimum have one on your bag, thank you. This opinion doesn't apply to you, but there are many with the attitude you're displaying that have alterior motives; this applies to them. I will assume you don't wear one at this point unless you say otherwise.



I think this is bigger than just the "red lanyard" for you. You are likely doing VO, or are an ACPA symathizer of sorts, and you can't do that wearing a red lanyard. I see you guys every day. Wearing a clip on RAIC or a dark colored one carefully tucked under the tunic. You're almost always surrounded by your younger collegues proudly wearing red. It must be "uncomfortable for you at minimum". Doing VO wouldn't work wearing red. The paradox would be too apparent as other "red lanyard wearers" would notice. I'll bet you would have preferred the "status quo", as the ACPA schills and "management plants" stood up for guys like you, while ignoring the needs of most others. They let the WACON slide for everyone else but the most senior while sacrificing and essentially "eating their young". Nice. Now you're at the top, and you want the "cake" ACPA promised, everyone else's needs or desire for real change be damned.

If you have been here 40 years you know EXACTLY what you haven't done to protect the contract over the last 20, and YOU OWE THE MOST to the demographic that comes after you. Guys like you, myself included, should be ashamed about what we've let occur over the last 20 years. Most major changes went through a vote or poll. Most passed under your watch and mine.

The younger generation, now desperate for NEEDED change, know exactly who guys like you are. We see them every day. They need to start thinking about the legacy that 50 years of pilots built for them before they started here in the 80's and 90's, instead of seeing what they can "strip mine" from the WACON the pilots who came before them fought hard to create.....over decades.

Stand up and help the younger generation turn the contract around so it benefits everyone like it benefited you 40 years ago. At minimum, you do you, and stop whining about the change going on around you. It's LONG overdue to get back to what constitutes "real Unionism" around here.



What you guys are missing is that the faster we all "ACT AS ONE", the faster this is over (maybe without a strike) and all those VO hogs can hit the trough again with no guilt.


***Edited many times for poor grammer and poor spelling.

[altiplano]

Right!?

I'd like to hear the reasoning from those of you that won't represent. Why don't you want to support your Association and colleagues on something so important.

- I'm spiteful and don't like ALPA
- i don't like the lanyard material
- I'm not a lanyard guy
- I'm pro-company and don't support us achieving gains
- I own 15000 AC shares I bought at $40 and that's my priority
- I'm too apathetic to reach out and get one
- I'm a coward and I don't want Murray to see me wearing it, just like I don't want other pilots to see my comments requesting VO in ReportLink

Or is it something else?

Whatever it is, it doesn't cut it. You are hurting yourself, your colleagues, and this profession by not being engaged and in solidarity with your peers. Get on board.

Let me be clear. I've been in this game coming up 40 years now. I've seen the current attitude here a few times before. I wear the ALPA lanyard, and personally am excited to see what they can do for us..finally.

What I do have a problem with is the people coming out of the woodwork thinking that bullying, intimidating and threatening their peers for something as small as wearing a colored fabric around their neck will have a positive effect.

You may not think it, is that, but let me tell you, if you don't think that the verbiage used in this thread is not the above you are fully in the middle of the PROBLEM.
We are treading down the same path of another much larger (now almost defunct airline) I worked for many years ago. There was a toxic culture very much the same as what I am seeing here. It ended up turning a great place to work with the best WACON in the world into a pile of steaming dung.

Most of you probably haven't been around long enough to see these cycles and degradations, but I can tell you now, AC is in the middle of it.

Maybe you all should start thinking about the bigger picture. You think we are going to get a world class contract? here in Canada? you're having a laugh. This will never change, you know why? Because of this cycle we are all stuck in, that is the Canadian mindset. Change that, and we will have a chance.

I'm glad you are wearing your lanyard and are excited.

Pressure and expectation and firm resolve to achieve solidarity in the membership is not bullying. There is a loss of respect for individuals that chose to behave in a way that hurts the entire group. That's just a fact

There is a toxic culture at this airline, but it's not on the line or from the line. it comes from above. This is a top down organisation and they have created that with their decade plus of suppressing this group's quality of life, career control, and pay. Forcing people into pay rates so low for so long they can't live in base? Breaking the contract again and again? Lying to keep up appearances? That's toxic.

You want to see toxic? Read yourself:

You think we are going to get a world class contract? here in Canada? you're having a laugh. This will never change

That attitude and spreading that belief is toxic. This airline has had world class contracts in the past. We have been comparable to United and Delta in the past. We always were the highest paid Canadian airline. Now?

Canadian mindset? I don't know what that is, but we are bringing on a new way of doing business for AC Pilots. 3000+ are having their first real go at negots and with a REAL union behind us. It's a new page.

edited due spellcheck substitutions

[RippleRock]

So has anyone heard what the difference between the 2 AT fa contract offers ?

It's a bit academic at this point.

The fact is that the FA's voted in complete solidarity, resulting in a new offer in less than a SINGLE WEEK. That's saying something about the power of solidarity and Unionism getting shit DONE.

Solidarity is the theme of my post, and naturally it swung over to overt forms of solidarity on display at our company.

I think the point has been made, but it will be nice to see what they've achieved!

HOLD the LINE.

[Handover]

or we can all collectively SIT BACK DOWN and wait for the train to run us over, because it WILL.

The train has already run over you. This is the worst airline in North America, the lowest paid, and frankly, every time I fly, it has one of the most miserable service in the world.

Your airline is a government-protected dumpster fire. It's about time a real airline stepped up to become Canada's most prestigious. The rest of Canadian aviation can only wish.

lol. ain't that the truth

[Handover]

There is a toxic culture at this airline, but it's not on the line or from the line. it comes from above.

Canadian mindset? I don't know what that is"

you hit the nail on the head there bud. "I'm perfect, its always someone else's fault"

look inwards for real change.

[RippleRock]

There is a toxic culture at this airline, but it's not on the line or from the line. it comes from above.

Canadian mindset? I don't know what that is"

you hit the nail on the head there bud. "I'm perfect, its always someone else's fault"

look inwards for real change.

Are you here to add anything "Bud"?

Or are you just here to drop a few "zingers"?

You're obviously part of the problem in this country.

[Handover]

Are you here to add anything "Bud"?

Or are you just here to drop a few "zingers"? Sounds to me like you're part of the problem in this country.

well aren't you touchy. seems like you can dish it out but can't take it eh. nice comeback, "its not me its youuuuuuu"

[eyebrow737]

you know EXACTLY what you haven't done to protect the contract over the last 20, and YOU OWE THE MOST to the demographic that comes after you. Guys like you, myself included, should be ashamed about what we've let occur over the last 20 years. Most major changes went through a vote or poll. Most passed under your watch and mine.

Read my post - in the past, the airline I worked that was far bigger than AC. I've only been at AC for 6 years. Started at this flat pay, that YOU and left for us. Almost 1/10th of what I left to be home with the grandkids.

Don't put it on me, Look in the mirror. When I talk about the Canadian mentality that is now prevalent, that wasn't there when I left. I'm seeing it in spades at AC. The issues you are so quick to blame on everyone else, are truly systemic here. If you had somewhere else to compare your conditions to and had lived them, you'd then only understand how you are trying to chop down a tree with a knife.

You think a union is going to solve everything, look at Westjet. It's like saying communism is going to fix all the problems of capitalism.

Anyway, you'll learn. It's going to take both labor and management to effect real change. Otherwise it will just be the same.

[RippleRock]

you know EXACTLY what you haven't done to protect the contract over the last 20, and YOU OWE THE MOST to the demographic that comes after you. Guys like you, myself included, should be ashamed about what we've let occur over the last 20 years. Most major changes went through a vote or poll. Most passed under your watch and mine.

Read my post - in the past, the airline I worked that was far bigger than AC. I've only been at AC for 6 years. Started at this flat pay, that YOU and left for us. Almost 1/10th of what I left to be home with the grandkids.

Don't put it on me, Look in the mirror. When I talk about the Canadian mentality that is now prevalent, that wasn't there when I left. I'm seeing it in spades at AC. The issues you are so quick to blame on everyone else, are truly systemic here. If you had somewhere else to compare your conditions to and had lived them, you'd then only understand how you are trying to chop down a tree with a knife.

You think a union is going to solve everything, look at Westjet. It's like saying communism is going to fix all the problems of capitalism.

Anyway, you'll learn. It's going to take both labor and management to effect real change. Otherwise it will just be the same.

My message was to a broader audience than just you. You're talking like someone whos trying to justify VO.

You know what it means to do your part. Everyone does. That is all that's being asked. Don't undermine the efforts of those who are attempting to affect positive change in this country. If you're defeated, and don't believe in collective effort, just stay out of the way of those who do.

[RippleRock]

you know EXACTLY what you haven't done to protect the contract over the last 20, and YOU OWE THE MOST to the demographic that comes after you. Guys like you, myself included, should be ashamed about what we've let occur over the last 20 years. Most major changes went through a vote or poll. Most passed under your watch and mine.

Read my post - in the past, the airline I worked that was far bigger than AC. I've only been at AC for 6 years. Started at this flat pay, that YOU and left for us. Almost 1/10th of what I left to be home with the grandkids.

Don't put it on me, Look in the mirror. When I talk about the Canadian mentality that is now prevalent, that wasn't there when I left. I'm seeing it in spades at AC. The issues you are so quick to blame on everyone else, are truly systemic here. If you had somewhere else to compare your conditions to and had lived them, you'd then only understand how you are trying to chop down a tree with a knife.

You think a union is going to solve everything, look at Westjet. It's like saying communism is going to fix all the problems of capitalism.

Anyway, you'll learn. It's going to take both labor and management to effect real change. Otherwise it will just be the same.

I doubt you'll teach me anything new. I've been in aviation over 40 years. My message was to a broader audience. You're talking like someone who's just trying to justify the VO their picking up.

I refuse to engage anyone with a "defeatist attitude" on an individual basis. It's purely wasted effort.

If you don't believe in ALPA's drive to better the career in this country, you do you, just stay out of the way of those who are actually putting the effort in.

Hope the raise that's coming for you, --generated on the backs of others efforts--, leaves you with a bitter taste.

[eyebrow737]

Hope the raise that's coming for you, --generated on the backs of others efforts--, leaves you with a bitter taste.

you could have fit it that into one message instead of stuttering
40 years in aviation, did you not also say "Your 40 year opinion will be followed by a 25 year opinion, mine." 40 or 25? folding paper planes when you are 3 years old doesn't count as being in aviation.

Anyway, I've done my fair share for the industry, you won't know that, nor do I expect you to care. I'll have retired before I see any returns on these negations, so sorry to disappoint. That fact that you want other to feel bitter, speaks volumes for your personality.

I'll leave you to your saviour complex young'n.

[RippleRock]

Hope the raise that's coming for you, --generated on the backs of others efforts--, leaves you with a bitter taste.

you could have fit it that into one message instead of stuttering
40 years in aviation, did you not also say "Your 40 year opinion will be followed by a 25 year opinion, mine." 40 or 25? folding paper planes when you are 3 years old doesn't count as being in aviation.

Anyway, I've done my fair share for the industry, you won't know that, nor do I expect you to care. I'll have retired before I see any returns on these negations, so sorry to disappoint. That fact that you want other to feel bitter, speaks volumes for your personality.

I'll leave you to your saviour complex young'n.

40 years in aviation genius, 25 years here, I retire in 6.

I know your type. Self serving. It's all your type were ever good at, and there are plenty of you in the top 800. We're at the "bottom of the food chain" here for a reason. Look in a mirror.

Good luck in retirement while we attempt to right the ship. I'll do my part.

[altiplano]

@eyebrow

What have you done?

Or more importantly what are you doing NOW to affect positive change? Move this group, this profession forward? Start a change in this Canadian mindset you speak of?

You wrote: "it takes labor and management to effect real change. Otherwise it will just be the same."

You're right on that. The problem is that management will not change - they want status quo. Why wouldn't they? It's benefitted then enormously for the past 20 years. We are going to have to drag them kicking and screaming to realize the change we seek. We are going to have to start acting differently than we have been.

We tried cooperating, being partners, but the "new relationship" we had with management following FOS and the 2014 Framework MOA set our group back further and saw our pay and work conditions erode more than at any time during this airline's history. Turns out it was just management-speak for us capitulating and voting yes to whatever management's next whim was. Always accepting that what fell off the table to us was the "best we could do."

6 years in at AC and approaching the end of your career? Not able to realize the gains we are looking to achieve? Are you prepared to be locked out or go on strike? Because if you're not then the best thing you can do is get on board now and support your MEC to pressure the airline NOW. Show solidarity NOW. That will get management to accept the real change that's coming.

Only solidarity will force management to see the new path. The majority here are on side with their MEC and Association, but we need everyone or this has the potential to get ugly for all sides.

The MEC/NC has the mandate from the membership and will not capitulate. I'm behind them for whatever it takes.

[Hangry]

Sounds like another boomer beholden to an outdated ideology as most boomers are.

They can’t help themselves. It’s who they are. Leave them behind. Don’t even bother.

Soldier ahead. Wear your lanyard. Get on board.

[munzil]

Sounds like another boomer beholden to an outdated ideology as most boomers are.

They can’t help themselves. It’s who they are. Leave them behind. Don’t even bother.

Soldier ahead. Wear your lanyard. Get on board.

The original poster identifies himself as a boomer. Don't be a:
big·ot
/ˈbiɡət/
noun
a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

[Hangry]

Vidkun Quisling should be forgiven cause he admitted what he was right? I mean. He told us!

Obviously not the same but I hope you get the point. I hope.

GTFO

[8895]

The only thing I learned from reading this thread is that AC pilots have an irrational obsession with lanyards….? Lol