ACPA-ALPA meeting

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:50 pm

How about one seniority list with career progression to bigger equipment for the Jazz types. Give them the choice to either accept or decline individually. That way the senior types can stay with career and pay protection, if that is their wish. Those who accept may run the risk of being displaced by AC types, but with retirements this should be minimal.

AC pilots get better job security and an end to the whipsaw. Jazz pilots get a choice of staying or going.

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:32 am

The big unknown is what will ACE do, if (and that's a big if) ACPA and ALPA come to some agreement on any Move-up / Seniority deal.

The Company will have to be behind what ever agreement materializes.

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:41 am

Maybe that won't be that big a deal as (to the best of my knowledge) ACE will cease to exist when all the units have been divested to release their value. Plus, if the pilots stand as one unit, Milton will have no choice but to listen.

The battling units have been a boon to the higher ups at ACE and the pilots biggest downfall. Time to change before 2009.

JayDee · Post by **JayDee** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:51 am

Smitty wrote: if the pilots stand as one unit, Milton will have no choice but to listen.

The battling units have been a boon to the higher ups at ACE and the pilots biggest downfall. Time to change before 2009.

Just imagine the solidarity if the AC & Jazz pilots had the balls the NWA guys have

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DatpAwCHO2U

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:09 am

I certainly think it is a mistake to use THAT type of a presentation.

I certainly think it is time for Pilots to say "enuf is enuf" but that video is a little over the top.

Looks like something from the Teamsters.... not ALPA.

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:15 am

Nothing against hypotheticals, however that is just what this merger of seniority lists and method to the madness is... just hypothetical.

At this stage, is it not more important to resolve a common bargaining strategy rather than a common seniority list? It is clear, that full integration of the lists is not going to happen, so why even entertain it at this point? All this discussion of how we could achieve a list merely distracts us all from what is important, going to the table without stabbing eachother in the back!

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:20 pm

Nothing against hypotheticals, however that is just what this merger of seniority lists and method to the madness is... just hypothetical.

At this stage, is it not more important to resolve a common bargaining strategy rather than a common seniority list? It is clear, that full integration of the lists is not going to happen, so why even entertain it at this point? All this discussion of how we could achieve a list merely distracts us all from what is important, going to the table without stabbing eachother in the back!

While I agree with what you say, I also believe there has to be some glue holding the group together. Otherwise backroom deals are inevitable. A common list would give pause to the groups who may be meeting with Milton or Randell on the side to the disadvantage of the other group.

JMHO.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:51 pm

arewethereyet(buddy, you're never gonna get there) wrote,

tony!!!! hey smarty pants... maybe a moron..but at least im not a smug, self centered, know it all who preaches air canada is god!!! im not the only one who thinks it either.

was just trying to give my opinion. kinda sick of your kind thinking their better that the guys who help pay your paycheck!!! JAZZ!!! idiot!

ps.. you work for ACE!!! and you dont fly the mother ship!

Well, what can I say. Now I'm even more convinced you're a moron. IMHO, of course.

2low · Post by **2low** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:13 pm

See you on the line in 2009!

Beech18s · Post by **Beech18s** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:50 am

I heard Jazz MEC already has payscales drawn up for the EMBs to present to the company before 2009 should GS not be implemented by then. And that should GS work, Jazz pilots would fly EMBs on ACPA contract, the fence being the A320. Possible type freezes for a number of years and then eventually fences removed. Anybody?

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:08 am

prop2jet wrote:I agree, no other operator will come in and take away business from Jazz overnight, however, it can go to tender with an allocation of sufficient time in which to set up the infrastructure. Again, you only need look south of the border to see what has happened. Never say never!

The term of the CPA between AC and Jazz is fairly clear and is contained in the Jazz prospectus, available on SEDAR. It is 10 years with two further 5 year renewals. Any debate on a 'tender' is moot until 2016.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:14 pm

So new rumor...Apparently talks are going well. Was mentioned that the EMJ will be the bridge between the two companies, with date of hire governing. Meaning if your a 10 year jazzer and you can bid onto the EMJ holding your 10 years seniority. if you want to jump up to the 320, then it's BOTL with no seniority carryover. All future layoffs would be wholey taken at the Jazz end...

Sounds alittle far fetched, but it's a fun one to spread.

bowling · Post by **bowling** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:37 pm

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:06 pm

Beech18s wrote:I heard Jazz MEC already has payscales drawn up for the EMBs to present to the company before 2009 should GS not be implemented by then. And that should GS work, Jazz pilots would fly EMBs on ACPA contract, the fence being the A320. Possible type freezes for a number of years and then eventually fences removed. Anybody?

I'm sure you are correct, however, hell will freeze over before Mainline will give up the EMB. I'm sure the Jazz MEC has payscales on the 320 and the 767.

Jazz shot themselves in the foot by lowering the wages on the RJ, just to stick it to Mainline.

LANDGREEN · Post by **LANDGREEN** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:10 pm

KAG wrote:So new rumor...Apparently talks are going well. Was mentioned that the EMJ will be the bridge between the two companies, with date of hire governing. Meaning if your a 10 year jazzer and you can bid onto the EMJ holding your 10 years seniority. if you want to jump up to the 320, then it's BOTL with no seniority carryover. All future layoffs would be wholey taken at the Jazz end...

Sounds alittle far fetched, but it's a fun one to spread.

REALLY??? I better quit before I get forced out of the bottom by the Jazz guys!!! Some of you guys will believe anything LOL!!!

RussD · Post by **RussD** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:19 pm

KAG wrote:So new rumor...Apparently talks are going well. Was mentioned that the EMJ will be the bridge between the two companies, with date of hire governing. Meaning if your a 10 year jazzer and you can bid onto the EMJ holding your 10 years seniority. if you want to jump up to the 320, then it's BOTL with no seniority carryover. All future layoffs would be wholey taken at the Jazz end...

.

What a perfectly elegent solution to a generation long war. A permanent fence for the current Jazz pilots with a narrow and defined seniority application. In a matter of years the sun will set on the fence as the current Jazz pilots ride off into that sunset. Future generations united and untainted by the war. Perfect,,, Brilliant.

socrates · Post by **socrates** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:12 pm

Hey KAG I heard the same thing, to bad the AC guys think they will have the embraers forever so they will never agree to it.

Ahh well I guess we will just end up with them in 2009 and guys at Jazz will be able to get upgraded with 1 year seniority instead of the guys at AC getting an upgrade in one year.

The company played the cards just right get a judge to award the embraers to AC so it looks like they had nothing to do with it, use them as a barganning tool to keep the unions from joining forces then send them to jazz in 2009 and then everyone loses.

bowling · Post by **bowling** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:28 pm

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:32 pm

Who says the Jazz pilots want to fly the Embryo anyway??? ... I think i'd prefer to see more 705's, they are a better aircraft. (Its also nice to support your own country)

Also .... I don't know why a "legacy carrier" such as Air Canada would want to fly a Regional aircraft anyway, isn't that a bit below there "standard". I don't see United, American, Northwest, Continental, Delta flying aircraft that use the letters "RJ" in the name.

In regards to "G.S" ... Jazz pilots aren't trying to steal AC jobs ... don't mix your own brand of Kool-aid. We (AC and Jazz) are just trying to exist, and if we continue to butt heads and refuse to listen we're only going to destroy ourselves. Nobody is going anywhere fast so we better learn to get along.

The other thing is, a fair amount of people on here spouting off all bitter about this, haven't worked long enough at either company to hold such a grudge. So lets not pick-up where our predecessors left off .......

My humble opinion ....

Loc

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:57 pm

ACPA has made it abundantly clear, in its last newsletter on GS, that they will not entertain any solution that would adversely effect even the most junior mainline pilot.

ANY was in capital letters.

Jazz was spun off as a separate company under ACE. It is well known that ACE will likely cease to exist within a short while. I have never heard of two completely separate companies having a single seniority list. Have you?

F-16 · Post by **F-16** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:10 am

The Emb is a mainline aircraft....

190 being heavier/faster, etc. than the DC-9 and is just like the gold ol' 737-200.

Look at US Airways, Delta - Mainline for 190/195. It can seat up to 120 or something depending on config. When you throw in LOT, Alitalia, Finnair, etc. the 170/175/190/195 are all mainline.

The 705 might be a nice one to fly, but for pax it's not even close to being as comfortable as the Emb. Perhaps if Bombardier had made the BRX/C-series, Air Canada could've gone for that to stay Canadian, but Bombardier really dropped the ball on it.

Loc - I know I'm was never great at English, but I can't figure out where the "R" is in EMJ...

With the arctic ice melting even faster than expected, perhaps this stuff won't matter in a few years unless we modify these things to be used as some wicked boats or hydrofoils.

Cheers.

skyhigh · Post by **skyhigh** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:49 am

Hey F-16, we spoke about this before, and I do agree with you that the EMJs are Mainline A/C. I had a discussion with someone at work about this the other day and he pointed out a few Major Airlines that choose to use them in their Regional divisions....namely

Delta (Shuttle America)
US Airways (Republic Airlines)
Air France (Regional Airlines)
United ( Shuttle America)
Alitalia (Alitalia Express)

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:27 am

Sorry guys (specially ACPA) By judging some of the attitudes I am reading on this topic. I don't think that GS will work at all or even happen.

I though this whole issue was to benefit both and groups not benefit one at the expense of the other.

Everytime someone mentions flowthrough to mainline, Jazz to get EMBs, seniority, All the AC types put up the red flags and shout "that will never happen, etc, etc.

I don't see how BOTL for Jazz is going to benefit Jazz pilots, Sounds like just a buffer for ACPA to have in case of layoffs, and to control what we can and can't fly.( I hope I am wrong when I say this)

I am obviously missing something here. or have no clue about this as I have heard 1000 different rumors. I am curious what are we trying to accomplish exactly by having GS. What is everyone at both groups hoping for.

For myseff (I am at Jazz) Overall better job conditions including salary and the like. For both groups.

My apologies if I offended anyone by my post, feel free to to set the record straight.

Cheers DH.

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:30 am

Brick Head wrote:ACPA has made it abundantly clear, in its last newsletter on GS, that they will not entertain any solution that would adversely effect even the most junior mainline pilot.

Okay. What is ALPA's position on the most junior Jazz pilot. Or even the most senior ones who went through CCAA.

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:31 pm

DH,

When I read through this entire thread I never got the same perception of attitude from our members. ACPA has made it clear on this topic, that seniority is and will always be important to it's members. Before we even meet at the table, both sides know where each other stand. Your memberships committee understands the methods of integration that the two parties could construct a list and I'll repeat they fully understand that DOH is and never will be part of these talks. A ratio based merger would leave the bottom half of the Jazz list exposed in the event of a downturn. Remember when you base integration on a ratio based formula, fences usually do not apply so any layoff protection would result in the majority coming from Jazz. Your membership is wise to that and have during the last round of talks on GS and I believe even now with your IRC committee feel that a BOTL agreement with protective fences that will allow layoffs to happen from each respective "silo" based on company need.

So if I look at some of the other opinions like Jazz getting all the EMB's. So what then happens to 600+ mainline pilots that are flying these aircraft? Sure attrition/ retirements will take care of those pilots . So we just walk away from all those positions and let our list stagnate for at least 5-7 years? Contrary to what you heard there are pilots that want to fly those aircraft.

I have always supported some form of talks on this subject and usually just skip over the "out to lunch" posts and just think realistic expectations.

ACPA-ALPA meeting

Ack