Some of the European Authorities have clarified this one. They distinguish between IFR time, and IF time.
IFR being, that time spent operating in accordance with an IFR FLIGHT PLAN; and,
IF, being that time spent flying IN CLOUD.
Interestingly, a check of my logbook indicates that the IF time is almost exactly 11% of the IFR time.
Logging Instrument Time
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TOGA Descent
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Re: Actual
10%? Where does that arbitrary figure come from? Cathay never questioned my IFR time and I log according to Cat's theory.Northern Girl wrote:Hey Darkhorse - you ever wanna fly for an overseas company?? Lets imagine that your goal in aviation was to fly for Cathay Pacific - you are sitting in the interview with 4000 hours of which you have logged 3000 IFR actual. Hmmmmmmm............you are going to be real embarassed by their response to that. They will be looking for around 10% actual or perhaps a little more considering the winter wx in Canada. Any more than that will make them suspicious which will carry over to everything else you have logged/said.
If you never want to fly outside Canada - then log whatever. But I am in full agreement with Check Pilot.
Thats my 4 cents worth IMHO.
If they did question it I would just honestly explain my time and not try to make it appear if it all occurred IMC.
It seems to me, that there should be more important things to be concerning yourself with whilst aviating than timing how long you are in cloud.
So IFR time is logged as simulated when not in cloud, actual when in? Or do you create another column to log IFR time in general?TOGA Descent wrote: Interestingly, a check of my logbook indicates that the IF time is almost exactly 11% of the IFR time.
In talking with my boss, he figures that simulated should only get logged when wearing a view-limiter, and that it's not right for me to log instrument time unless I'm in cloud with a student...I'm not buying it. I'm going to ask a guy I know who was in on the CARs when they were developed and see what he has to say. I'll post his reply on Monday or Tuesday.
So when (I'm optimistic!) I land a job with an FMS equipped machine, should I log IMC the whole time I'm in cloud even though I'm not hand flying? Or, whenever the autopilot is on in the aircraft I'm flying does it get to log IMC when it's flying in cloud and not me (ps: I'm not being serious here)? The more I look into this mess the more I'm determining that there's no right answer. Thank god I can change my logbook easily if I have to.
Cat - just based on what should be, I completely agree with you. It seems bunk to me to suggest that IFR time shouldn't just get logged as actual. However, I'm (and I'm guessing a lot of the people on this forum)more concerned with the status quo and not necessarily what is the "right" thing to do. Sad, I know...but a lot of us just have to work with the system at this stage of our careers.
My god there's a lot of snow outside.
Pugster
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talkinghead
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TOGA Descent
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Here are the columns required under JAA (European system)...
Single Pilot Hours: (Single Engine)
Single Pilot Hours: (Multi Engine)
Multi Pilot hours: (Assumes Multi Engine)
Total flight Hours :
Landings Day:(As the Flying/ Handling Pilot)
Landings Night:(As the Flying/ Handling Pilot)
Night Hours:
IFR Hours (Flight Plan)
PIC Hours
SIC Hours
Dual Hours
instructor Hours
IF Hours (in cloud)
NAV Hours (Navigator - if req'd)
Sim Hours (Self Explainatory)
Hope this makes sence out of it for you, from the JAA perspective. TC, you'll get more answers than the JAA system has columns!
Single Pilot Hours: (Single Engine)
Single Pilot Hours: (Multi Engine)
Multi Pilot hours: (Assumes Multi Engine)
Total flight Hours :
Landings Day:(As the Flying/ Handling Pilot)
Landings Night:(As the Flying/ Handling Pilot)
Night Hours:
IFR Hours (Flight Plan)
PIC Hours
SIC Hours
Dual Hours
instructor Hours
IF Hours (in cloud)
NAV Hours (Navigator - if req'd)
Sim Hours (Self Explainatory)
Hope this makes sence out of it for you, from the JAA perspective. TC, you'll get more answers than the JAA system has columns!
Last edited by TOGA Descent on Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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" View-limiters,foggles whatever you call them, should all be in the garbage can. "
If any check pilot or Government check pilot wanted me to wear a hood or foggles or any unorthodox device I would politely refuse to allow them in the airplane except as a student or passenger.
Listen to me all you younguns reading this thread, when interviewing any pilot for employment I "never " look at their personal log book, I hire based on personality and attitude. If I'm inpressed and want to find out how skilled and safe they are it does not take long in the airplane.
CAR's and all the rest of the rules regulations SOP's etc. are guidelines and should be treated as such.
Ability is not found in log books.
jeeses I wish I were being paid for all this stuff.
Your friend and mentor...
Cat
If any check pilot or Government check pilot wanted me to wear a hood or foggles or any unorthodox device I would politely refuse to allow them in the airplane except as a student or passenger.
Listen to me all you younguns reading this thread, when interviewing any pilot for employment I "never " look at their personal log book, I hire based on personality and attitude. If I'm inpressed and want to find out how skilled and safe they are it does not take long in the airplane.
CAR's and all the rest of the rules regulations SOP's etc. are guidelines and should be treated as such.
Ability is not found in log books.
jeeses I wish I were being paid for all this stuff.
Your friend and mentor...
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Splitting hairs
Arent we the moral one...Check Pilot wrote:You just don't get it do you. The next rung on your step up the ladder of fuselage hugging is right in front of you isn't it. As long as it's for you, you'll keep on disappointing your peers and then the boss when you either cause a big media distubance or the insurance rates go up for your boss. Best of luck in the future bunky.
This is crazy... Lets see if we can split the hair into 4...If you file IFR and you fly the whole flight IFR but out of that only 20% of it was in cloud....Then you can only log that 20%... So in other words the actual work you did under IFR rules does not count, unless it was in the clouds..
So lets say I am flying VFR, and then I ask for special VFR into a control Zone. But in the area I am flying from into the zone is VFR... I continue and land at the airport... Am I flying under VFR or am I flying under Special VFR????
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TOGA Descent
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Re: Splitting hairs
Again, we see the benifits of the European system (JAA)...Darkhorse wrote:Arent we the moral one...Check Pilot wrote:You just don't get it do you. The next rung on your step up the ladder of fuselage hugging is right in front of you isn't it. As long as it's for you, you'll keep on disappointing your peers and then the boss when you either cause a big media distubance or the insurance rates go up for your boss. Best of luck in the future bunky.
This is crazy... Lets see if we can split the hair into 4...If you file IFR and you fly the whole flight IFR but out of that only 20% of it was in cloud....Then you can only log that 20%... So in other words the actual work you did under IFR rules does not count, unless it was in the clouds..
So lets say I am flying VFR, and then I ask for special VFR into a control Zone. But in the area I am flying from into the zone is VFR... I continue and land at the airport... Am I flying under VFR or am I flying under Special VFR????
Rookie Airbus Crew… "What's it doing now?"
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Check Pilot
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Darkhorse -
I’m not going to let you “red herring” this thing away and don’t tell me about the who’s got the “Mr. Moral” thing either, you young snot.
You blatantly made the statement that - Quote “as long as it is stamped in the log book.....who cares after that” - Unquote.
I don’t care how you log it or get it “stamped”. How about if you get your experience the old-fashioned way.
Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well. In whatever kind of weather- and frankly, I don’t care as long as you and the aeroplane are equipped. Oh yeah - and able to do it. And once again, I don’t care how you log it. Get it “stamped” if you need to.
Now that I’ve got your attention –
If you really want to move up in your chosen career path to whatever kind of fuselage you want to kiss or hug, here’s some advice:
Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot Licence. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military for all I care. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours). Not some “stamped” time in your log.
Therein lies the key to the stupid remarks about getting your time “stamped”. Nobody but you care about every decimal point from every flight you’ve ever done that you can show to a prospective employer. - Nobody! Your Chief Pilot will “stamp” your log without batting an eye. Why? - Your Chief Pilot does not give a fiddlers f##k about how may hours you spent on the gauges. He isn’t going to check it out now, is he? And everybody knows it! You want to know why? Because he, and nor does anyone else, really care about that inane and boring stuff. All he really cares about is that you either got the trip done safely or you made a decision to not go in the first place. So don’t tell me that logging some kind of time spent circling in special VFR or how many hours you had to plow through clouds means anything to anyone but yourself.
While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the pilot proficiency check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that.
One last thought you youthful turd, go attend a good CRM course.
Last, but certainly not least, you need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. Sooner or later you’ll hopefully be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation you find yourself in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future.
Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career.
It all came about because of luck, skill, judgement, knowledge, compassion (I know you won’t agree with that right now) and most importantly, experience.
Best of luck there bunky.
I’m not going to let you “red herring” this thing away and don’t tell me about the who’s got the “Mr. Moral” thing either, you young snot.
You blatantly made the statement that - Quote “as long as it is stamped in the log book.....who cares after that” - Unquote.
I don’t care how you log it or get it “stamped”. How about if you get your experience the old-fashioned way.
Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well. In whatever kind of weather- and frankly, I don’t care as long as you and the aeroplane are equipped. Oh yeah - and able to do it. And once again, I don’t care how you log it. Get it “stamped” if you need to.
Now that I’ve got your attention –
If you really want to move up in your chosen career path to whatever kind of fuselage you want to kiss or hug, here’s some advice:
Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot Licence. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military for all I care. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours). Not some “stamped” time in your log.
Therein lies the key to the stupid remarks about getting your time “stamped”. Nobody but you care about every decimal point from every flight you’ve ever done that you can show to a prospective employer. - Nobody! Your Chief Pilot will “stamp” your log without batting an eye. Why? - Your Chief Pilot does not give a fiddlers f##k about how may hours you spent on the gauges. He isn’t going to check it out now, is he? And everybody knows it! You want to know why? Because he, and nor does anyone else, really care about that inane and boring stuff. All he really cares about is that you either got the trip done safely or you made a decision to not go in the first place. So don’t tell me that logging some kind of time spent circling in special VFR or how many hours you had to plow through clouds means anything to anyone but yourself.
While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the pilot proficiency check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that.
One last thought you youthful turd, go attend a good CRM course.
Last, but certainly not least, you need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. Sooner or later you’ll hopefully be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation you find yourself in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future.
Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career.
It all came about because of luck, skill, judgement, knowledge, compassion (I know you won’t agree with that right now) and most importantly, experience.
Best of luck there bunky.
Here we go again
Here is a word for you Checkpilot...."assumption" Notice the first three letters....
I am not a 250 hour wonder and Iam not new in this industry. Oh ya Im not young either...
I read your last post there...YAWN!
I think I really hit a nerve.. The logging of IFR time should be strait forward...and obviously it is not or else there would not be this long drawn out discussion as to how it should be done.
One last thing.. Just because you logged IFR a certain way in the good old days of the pre flood era does not mean it still works.
One thing I find hard listeneing to is guys like you who have some good points but also start off their point with a "well back in my day we did it this way"
So lay off a bit. And that is MR. Bunky to you.
I am not a 250 hour wonder and Iam not new in this industry. Oh ya Im not young either...
I read your last post there...YAWN!
I think I really hit a nerve.. The logging of IFR time should be strait forward...and obviously it is not or else there would not be this long drawn out discussion as to how it should be done.
One last thing.. Just because you logged IFR a certain way in the good old days of the pre flood era does not mean it still works.
One thing I find hard listeneing to is guys like you who have some good points but also start off their point with a "well back in my day we did it this way"
So lay off a bit. And that is MR. Bunky to you.
The reality is that once you're flying with a large enough/safe enough company ALL your time is IFR and ALL your time is X-country (same sort of argument applies to that I think) anyway.
At the point when all your flights are IFR, there only seems much point in MAYBE estimating a 0.5 here or there for cloud time.
At the point when all your flights are IFR, there only seems much point in MAYBE estimating a 0.5 here or there for cloud time.
I know i'm probably just spitting out things that other people have said before me, but now it'll be in one short message.
Yes i've heard that 10% of your ifr time is counted towards "cloud time" when doing interviews and such...
But in the log books it states "Actual IFR" not "Actual IMC" so i would believe you take that time you've filed IFR and mark that down. If however you wish to get exact with your numbers... create a column "cloud time" so you can keep track of both. The new log books have a few extra spots at the end for that kind of thing.
What i don't however understand is why someone filing ifr but flying over clouds "vfr over the top" shouldn't count that as actual ifr as some people have said. What if that person doesn't have a vfr over the top rating? I know it's included in the commercial license, so bear with me.
Someone who doesn't have their vfr over-the-top rating or commercial license filing ifr which happens to be overtop of a cloud layer... how would they log that? 50% of you are saying it should just be counted as VFR since you are not in cloud... but it most certainly is not if there isn't ground visable, and that person doesn't have that rating. Therefor that person would have to count that as being actual ifr time. Why then would that person be able to record that as actual ifr time and not the rest of us?
okay... now my head hurts, see what you've all done!!!
Yes i've heard that 10% of your ifr time is counted towards "cloud time" when doing interviews and such...
But in the log books it states "Actual IFR" not "Actual IMC" so i would believe you take that time you've filed IFR and mark that down. If however you wish to get exact with your numbers... create a column "cloud time" so you can keep track of both. The new log books have a few extra spots at the end for that kind of thing.
What i don't however understand is why someone filing ifr but flying over clouds "vfr over the top" shouldn't count that as actual ifr as some people have said. What if that person doesn't have a vfr over the top rating? I know it's included in the commercial license, so bear with me.
Someone who doesn't have their vfr over-the-top rating or commercial license filing ifr which happens to be overtop of a cloud layer... how would they log that? 50% of you are saying it should just be counted as VFR since you are not in cloud... but it most certainly is not if there isn't ground visable, and that person doesn't have that rating. Therefor that person would have to count that as being actual ifr time. Why then would that person be able to record that as actual ifr time and not the rest of us?
okay... now my head hurts, see what you've all done!!!
Last edited by Wadd on Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Punch it Chewy!
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Right Seat Captain
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I think people are taking what it says on the top of the columns in their log book as gospel. There are a billion different logbooks available for pilots to buy out there, and they all are different. Some have less columns, some have more. Some DON'T have an 'actual' column, just IFR. Does it really matter how much 'actual' one has? If you're on the instruments, you're on the instruments. If you're not, you're not.
This is what I propose, pretty much what Cat's been saying. If you're using instruments to fly, log IFR. If you're using outside visual reference to fly, do not log IFR. It's simple, it's legal, it's accurate, and representative of what one flew. Does this not make sense?
WHAT IS THE POINT OF LOGGING ACTUAL?
This is what I propose, pretty much what Cat's been saying. If you're using instruments to fly, log IFR. If you're using outside visual reference to fly, do not log IFR. It's simple, it's legal, it's accurate, and representative of what one flew. Does this not make sense?
WHAT IS THE POINT OF LOGGING ACTUAL?
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Cat Driver
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Right seat Captain :
The problem we have here is the misconseption that a pilot with an instrument rating flying in cloud is somehow performing an accomshliment that needs to be logged....
...maybe the fault for this situation that we see here lies in the issuance of the instrument rating...
One would think that the holder of an instrument rating would be qualified to fly in cloud without having to log time in cloud....
So what I would suggest is issuing two levels of instrument ratings.
One would be issued for filing an IFR instrument flight plan valid only when clear of cloud.
For those pilots who have grasped the true reason for flying IFR which is to allow you to fly in cloud and have shown they are competant to actually fly in cloud we could have the IFR rating valid for flight in cloud.
Then there would be only the down wind turn problem to worry about..
Jeeses I can't believe aviation has been dummed down to this level where pilots are worried about how many minutes they are in cloud....
Even more incredible is the fact I am even involved is such an idiotic discussion.
Cat
The problem we have here is the misconseption that a pilot with an instrument rating flying in cloud is somehow performing an accomshliment that needs to be logged....
...maybe the fault for this situation that we see here lies in the issuance of the instrument rating...
One would think that the holder of an instrument rating would be qualified to fly in cloud without having to log time in cloud....
So what I would suggest is issuing two levels of instrument ratings.
One would be issued for filing an IFR instrument flight plan valid only when clear of cloud.
For those pilots who have grasped the true reason for flying IFR which is to allow you to fly in cloud and have shown they are competant to actually fly in cloud we could have the IFR rating valid for flight in cloud.
Then there would be only the down wind turn problem to worry about..
Jeeses I can't believe aviation has been dummed down to this level where pilots are worried about how many minutes they are in cloud....
Even more incredible is the fact I am even involved is such an idiotic discussion.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Right Seat Captain
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Too funny Cat-
Cat Driver
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The Black Hole
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Check Pilot
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Darkhorse,
I haven’t had a chance to reply to your kind words referring me to the first three letters of the word assumption since last weekend. Kinda like spelling your handle as Dorkhorse I guess. Is that a typo?
There, - - now that we have the personal insults out of the way….
A couple of things come to my mind however:
I know you might be bored with people like Cat Driver, and me, for example, but like you so eloquently state:
“guys like you who have some good points but also start off their point with a "well back in my day we did it this way"
You claim that you are not a 250-hour wonder. You claim you are not new to the industry and you claim you are not young either.
You said you hit my nerve (not so - actually only idiots do that) so here you go – BUNKY:
And I say again BUNKY,
You are a Stage 2 pilot.
How come, if you’re not Stage 2, you are so concerned about logging any kind of time, whether its actual IFR, simulated IFR, IMC, cross country, night VFR, float, ski, uncontrolled, VFR-on-Top, commercial, private, ultra light, powered parachute, balloon, helicopter, airship or whatever CAR 400 series can think up, if you are in the system then and need to put it in the right column?
I’ll just (ass)ume that YOU must need to log any kind of flying time about four different ways so you can submit a resume to get some kind of “better” job. What’s wrong with your present job? Don’t you have one? How come you don’t have it already?
The reason you haven’t is because you are still Stage 2. It’s obvious to me that you are a low time, fuselage-hugging wannabe that knows it all.
What do you, unlike most of us “pre-flood” dinosaurs do differently about logging stuff, when most of us “pre-flood” types could care less about how much time us dinosaurs have in or out of cloud?
If it’s in cloud it’s IFR time, if it’s not it’s VFR as far as I’m concerned.
Oddly enough, in your mind, the “old” days are gone. Again, you just don’t get it. You just can’t accept that old guys know more than you do.
When it comes to aviation, those old days, and old dinosaurs, as much as you disagree, are not gone. You can hate that as much as you want but there are still a whole bunch of us baby boomers controlling things and plugging up the system for folks like you and it will take a long time before the system plods along and gets to learn all the old, same mistakes again when all the “old” experienced and pre- dinosaur types let guys like you take control of anything.
You fall into the classic “Stage 2” category. I hope you get some more years – note I said years, not hours – before you get out of under the thumb of some old dinosaur type like Cat Driver or me maybe. You still need that guidance.
Sometime when (If?) you get past it you will stop the fake yawning and pay a little attention to what aviation is all about - like Cat Driver and a few others on this forum have to bother with taking the time to pass on. Listen to experience. Ignore it at your own peril.
There you go BUNKY.
I haven’t had a chance to reply to your kind words referring me to the first three letters of the word assumption since last weekend. Kinda like spelling your handle as Dorkhorse I guess. Is that a typo?
There, - - now that we have the personal insults out of the way….
A couple of things come to my mind however:
I know you might be bored with people like Cat Driver, and me, for example, but like you so eloquently state:
“guys like you who have some good points but also start off their point with a "well back in my day we did it this way"
You claim that you are not a 250-hour wonder. You claim you are not new to the industry and you claim you are not young either.
You said you hit my nerve (not so - actually only idiots do that) so here you go – BUNKY:
And I say again BUNKY,
You are a Stage 2 pilot.
How come, if you’re not Stage 2, you are so concerned about logging any kind of time, whether its actual IFR, simulated IFR, IMC, cross country, night VFR, float, ski, uncontrolled, VFR-on-Top, commercial, private, ultra light, powered parachute, balloon, helicopter, airship or whatever CAR 400 series can think up, if you are in the system then and need to put it in the right column?
I’ll just (ass)ume that YOU must need to log any kind of flying time about four different ways so you can submit a resume to get some kind of “better” job. What’s wrong with your present job? Don’t you have one? How come you don’t have it already?
The reason you haven’t is because you are still Stage 2. It’s obvious to me that you are a low time, fuselage-hugging wannabe that knows it all.
What do you, unlike most of us “pre-flood” dinosaurs do differently about logging stuff, when most of us “pre-flood” types could care less about how much time us dinosaurs have in or out of cloud?
If it’s in cloud it’s IFR time, if it’s not it’s VFR as far as I’m concerned.
Oddly enough, in your mind, the “old” days are gone. Again, you just don’t get it. You just can’t accept that old guys know more than you do.
When it comes to aviation, those old days, and old dinosaurs, as much as you disagree, are not gone. You can hate that as much as you want but there are still a whole bunch of us baby boomers controlling things and plugging up the system for folks like you and it will take a long time before the system plods along and gets to learn all the old, same mistakes again when all the “old” experienced and pre- dinosaur types let guys like you take control of anything.
You fall into the classic “Stage 2” category. I hope you get some more years – note I said years, not hours – before you get out of under the thumb of some old dinosaur type like Cat Driver or me maybe. You still need that guidance.
Sometime when (If?) you get past it you will stop the fake yawning and pay a little attention to what aviation is all about - like Cat Driver and a few others on this forum have to bother with taking the time to pass on. Listen to experience. Ignore it at your own peril.
There you go BUNKY.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Check pilot, ignorance is forgivable with some of these posters.
What I find annoying is some of the newer pilots who read these discussions may accidently take these wannabes as experts, then we have a serious problem sharing our airspace.
May I make a comment about dinosaurs?
We not only can type in a FMS and reach out and turn heading bugs as the computer flys the airplane, but we are the guys you talk to way, way down below half way across the ocean who are still smart enough to fly old technology airplanes across oceans and deserts and mountains while ferrying them from one part of the world to another.....and it never occurs to us to log the time. ( in or out of cloud. )
Cat
What I find annoying is some of the newer pilots who read these discussions may accidently take these wannabes as experts, then we have a serious problem sharing our airspace.
May I make a comment about dinosaurs?
We not only can type in a FMS and reach out and turn heading bugs as the computer flys the airplane, but we are the guys you talk to way, way down below half way across the ocean who are still smart enough to fly old technology airplanes across oceans and deserts and mountains while ferrying them from one part of the world to another.....and it never occurs to us to log the time. ( in or out of cloud. )
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Check Pilot and Cat Driver,
I couldn't care less whether you log your flight time any more or not. Fact of the matter is, you both probably have enough experience and contacts in the industry to get whatever job you want. Good for you. For the rest of of us however, our log books are an important "accurate" record of our experience.
Cat, it is not unreasonable to expect that a current instrument rated pilot be able to fly in clouds. However, the fact is, you can be "current" and not have flown in IMC (or in the system) for up to a year. It is a personal pet peeve when I hear about people getting an IFR ticket and never having poked the pointy end into the thick of it. The actual column has to be one of the most important in the book! Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds?
I just don't see the point of insulting us here...equating a question about how to log time as some sort of indicator of one's inability to aviate safely.
Andrew
PS Check pilot, in your last post you actually counter Cat's original post (before all the mudslinging) about how to log instrument time. So which dinosaur's word do I take as gospel?
I couldn't care less whether you log your flight time any more or not. Fact of the matter is, you both probably have enough experience and contacts in the industry to get whatever job you want. Good for you. For the rest of of us however, our log books are an important "accurate" record of our experience.
Cat, it is not unreasonable to expect that a current instrument rated pilot be able to fly in clouds. However, the fact is, you can be "current" and not have flown in IMC (or in the system) for up to a year. It is a personal pet peeve when I hear about people getting an IFR ticket and never having poked the pointy end into the thick of it. The actual column has to be one of the most important in the book! Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds?
I just don't see the point of insulting us here...equating a question about how to log time as some sort of indicator of one's inability to aviate safely.
Andrew
PS Check pilot, in your last post you actually counter Cat's original post (before all the mudslinging) about how to log instrument time. So which dinosaur's word do I take as gospel?
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
325 :
I don't think you understand what I am trying to tell you, so here is a very simple explination.
" For the rest of of us however, our log books are an important "accurate" record of our experience. "
Yes, I understand, however I never....do you get that "NEVER " pay any attention to a pilots personal log book. I am only interested in finding out if the person can fly safely and make safe decisions when hiring them. A log book does not give me that information.
" Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds? "
Your question really does not deserve an answer because you obviously have tunnel vision and do not understand the subject.
However out of the kindness of my heart here is the reality.
If I were to hire someone with your experience level to fly " any " airplane IFR it would be as a first officer until you reached the stage that questions such as you are struggling with would be redundant.
"So which dinosaur's word do I take as gospel? "
I am going to give you the benefit of pretending that you are trying to be funny.
Because I can assure you that I would never hire any pilot that does not have respect for their elders.
My best advice is to quit worrying about splitting hairs about how many seconds you have in cloud...only some of the flying schools and TC are interested in giving you a complex about that subject.
Cat
I don't think you understand what I am trying to tell you, so here is a very simple explination.
" For the rest of of us however, our log books are an important "accurate" record of our experience. "
Yes, I understand, however I never....do you get that "NEVER " pay any attention to a pilots personal log book. I am only interested in finding out if the person can fly safely and make safe decisions when hiring them. A log book does not give me that information.
" Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds? "
Your question really does not deserve an answer because you obviously have tunnel vision and do not understand the subject.
However out of the kindness of my heart here is the reality.
If I were to hire someone with your experience level to fly " any " airplane IFR it would be as a first officer until you reached the stage that questions such as you are struggling with would be redundant.
"So which dinosaur's word do I take as gospel? "
I am going to give you the benefit of pretending that you are trying to be funny.
Because I can assure you that I would never hire any pilot that does not have respect for their elders.
My best advice is to quit worrying about splitting hairs about how many seconds you have in cloud...only some of the flying schools and TC are interested in giving you a complex about that subject.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I am only talking to you Check Pilot...Dont draw Cat into this.
The problem with you is exactly what I stated earlier. All you have is your opinion and all that counts is your opinion..In other words you think you are allways right. Since you have done it all then it is gospel. There is no room in your pre flood mind to listen or accept other views.
I could care less about this logging time crap. You guys are going back and forth splitting hairs because you have nothing better to do.
Lets get something correct here. The reason I called you an a** is because you went off on a tangent about who I am what I do and what my position in life is.. You dont even know me...... I hope you can figure that one out.. Hence the word (ass)umption.. I think you need to take a break and catch up here. I wouldnt want to tire an old guy out.
Also, I dont hate the guys that have been around... another ass-umption you made.
You are just so hi and mighty on yourself it unbelievable.... So what if you can turn knobs and program an FMS......WOW... Im in awww....guess what I can do it to.....
Obviously I hit a nerve or else you wouldnt use up the whole avcanada website to respond to me. I mean what a load of absolute drivle.... First you start off with dont insult me...because it hurt..and then you start calling me a Stage 2 pilot...what the hell is that?? Where did you come up with that one...cracker Jack box...How lame.. Maybe you should take up another hobby, you know something a little less testing on the "old" grey matter
Yawn
your friend
Bunky
The problem with you is exactly what I stated earlier. All you have is your opinion and all that counts is your opinion..In other words you think you are allways right. Since you have done it all then it is gospel. There is no room in your pre flood mind to listen or accept other views.
I could care less about this logging time crap. You guys are going back and forth splitting hairs because you have nothing better to do.
Lets get something correct here. The reason I called you an a** is because you went off on a tangent about who I am what I do and what my position in life is.. You dont even know me...... I hope you can figure that one out.. Hence the word (ass)umption.. I think you need to take a break and catch up here. I wouldnt want to tire an old guy out.
Also, I dont hate the guys that have been around... another ass-umption you made.
You are just so hi and mighty on yourself it unbelievable.... So what if you can turn knobs and program an FMS......WOW... Im in awww....guess what I can do it to.....
Obviously I hit a nerve or else you wouldnt use up the whole avcanada website to respond to me. I mean what a load of absolute drivle.... First you start off with dont insult me...because it hurt..and then you start calling me a Stage 2 pilot...what the hell is that?? Where did you come up with that one...cracker Jack box...How lame.. Maybe you should take up another hobby, you know something a little less testing on the "old" grey matter
Yawn
your friend
Bunky
I am only talking to you Check Pilot...Dont draw Cat into this.
The problem with you is exactly what I stated earlier. All you have is your opinion and all that counts is your opinion..In other words you think you are allways right. Since you have done it all then it is gospel. There is no room in your pre flood mind to listen or accept other views.
I could care less about this logging time crap. You guys are going back and forth splitting hairs because you have nothing better to do.
Lets get something correct here. The reason I called you an a** is because you went off on a tangent about who I am what I do and what my position in life is.. You dont even know me...... I hope you can figure that one out.. Hence the word (ass)umption.. I think you need to take a break and catch up here. I wouldnt want to tire an old guy out.
Also, I dont hate the guys that have been around... another ass-umption you made.
You are just so hi and mighty on yourself it unbelievable.... So what if you can turn knobs and program an FMS......WOW... Im in awww....guess what I can do it to.....
Obviously I hit a nerve or else you wouldnt use up the whole avcanada website to respond to me. I mean what a load of absolute drivle.... First you start off with dont insult me...because it hurt..and then you start calling me a Stage 2 pilot...what the hell is that?? Where did you come up with that one...cracker Jack box...How lame.. Maybe you should take up another hobby, you know something a little less testing on the "old" grey matter
Yawn
your friend
Bunky
The problem with you is exactly what I stated earlier. All you have is your opinion and all that counts is your opinion..In other words you think you are allways right. Since you have done it all then it is gospel. There is no room in your pre flood mind to listen or accept other views.
I could care less about this logging time crap. You guys are going back and forth splitting hairs because you have nothing better to do.
Lets get something correct here. The reason I called you an a** is because you went off on a tangent about who I am what I do and what my position in life is.. You dont even know me...... I hope you can figure that one out.. Hence the word (ass)umption.. I think you need to take a break and catch up here. I wouldnt want to tire an old guy out.
Also, I dont hate the guys that have been around... another ass-umption you made.
You are just so hi and mighty on yourself it unbelievable.... So what if you can turn knobs and program an FMS......WOW... Im in awww....guess what I can do it to.....
Obviously I hit a nerve or else you wouldnt use up the whole avcanada website to respond to me. I mean what a load of absolute drivle.... First you start off with dont insult me...because it hurt..and then you start calling me a Stage 2 pilot...what the hell is that?? Where did you come up with that one...cracker Jack box...How lame.. Maybe you should take up another hobby, you know something a little less testing on the "old" grey matter
Yawn
your friend
Bunky
Problem is, how does one know that the time logged in the 'actual column' has any basis in reality. This would have to be the easiest column to, putting it kindly, exaggerate.upontop325 wrote:...Cat, it is not unreasonable to expect that a current instrument rated pilot be able to fly in clouds. However, the fact is, you can be "current" and not have flown in IMC (or in the system) for up to a year. It is a personal pet peeve when I hear about people getting an IFR ticket and never having poked the pointy end into the thick of it. The actual column has to be one of the most important in the book! Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds?
...
The skills the individual demonstrates are far more telling than some unsubstantiated number in a logbook. That is why companies do sim checks and why one has to work through a probation period.
Interviews are where a company can question one's logbook and how the time is logged. However one logs it will almost certainly be fine, as long as one is forthright with the explanation.
First off, the term dinosaur came from checkpilot...no disrespect intended, thanks for the benefit of the doubt.
Second, I understand the subject just fine. Great if you never look at a log book, but insurance companies do, and so do some companies when you submit your resume initially. A lot ask for photocopies of your log...at least until they decide to bring you in for an interview and/or sim-ride. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be offered a chance to prove myself. Any time anybody wants to test me I'll put my money where my mouth is.
So once again, forgive my ignorance. I simply wanted to know the correct way to stick a particular entry in a logbook. Period! Had I the luxury of this forum several years ago I would have asked the question then. As it is, the fact that I haven't found a definite answer to this question, hasn't stopped me from flying safely in IFR/IMC in both single and multi-crew aircraft.
Cheers
Andrew
Second, I understand the subject just fine. Great if you never look at a log book, but insurance companies do, and so do some companies when you submit your resume initially. A lot ask for photocopies of your log...at least until they decide to bring you in for an interview and/or sim-ride. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be offered a chance to prove myself. Any time anybody wants to test me I'll put my money where my mouth is.
So once again, forgive my ignorance. I simply wanted to know the correct way to stick a particular entry in a logbook. Period! Had I the luxury of this forum several years ago I would have asked the question then. As it is, the fact that I haven't found a definite answer to this question, hasn't stopped me from flying safely in IFR/IMC in both single and multi-crew aircraft.
Cheers
Andrew
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
