Cador for this?

[captain_dc]

I think a reporting system is nessasary, but the CADORS system in place has some serious flaws.

For 1 thing its written from one persons prespective thus posibly not getting all the details. CADORS are not verified all the time neither are they investigated for facts and then they are put out as a report on the internet available for everyone to read. If I disagree with the events in a report can I aply to have it removed? Do I have a system of fighting it? Well...I havn't been charged with anything so I gues not. If a company gets to many reports the chances are they will be put under a microscope...just because some specialist might want to report every little out of sync thing that happens at an aerodrome?

CADORS in some form are nesasary...but the present system is just a little to public with not enouph requirments for fact finding and investigating on those that are forced (it is their job) to write them.

What if you find yourself doing something you feel you should be able to do...or you are doing something out of the ordinary as a alternative to doing something that is even more unsafe and you get written up in a CADORS. Nobody calls you, transport sees it but its not a big enouph deal for them to get involved. You never get a chance to tell your side, is this a fair system? CADORS can make you and your company look bad even if you have done nothing wrong.

I also think that a pilot may be less likely to request asistance from a specialist if he is scared of ending up in a CADORS on the internet tomorow.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... h/main.asp

[...]

HEy this just happened!!!! Anyone have any other info?

CADORS Number: 200800828 Reporting Region: Ontario

Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Incident Occurrence Date: 2008/08/22
Occurrence Time: 1100 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: TBA Injuries: 3

Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYYZ Aerodrome Name: Toronto
Occurrence Location: Toronto (CYYZ) Province: Ontario
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: Local media AOR Number:
TSB Class Of Investigation: TSB Occurrence No.:
Event InformationOther operational incident
Aircraft Information
Detail InformationUser Name: Donaldson, John
Date: 2008/08/23
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.:
Narrative: Two emotionally charged pilots from the same company went fist-a-cuffs on the VISTA ramp which resulted in an exchange of back to back triple sow cow round house kicks between these two pilots.

The argument started when apparently, one pilot was going to leave for a competitor which 'triggered' the following actions by the offended pilot. A Georgian Ailines aircraft was taxiing by (at almost rotate speed) and "ruffled" the feathers of the Skylink Express pilot in which that said pilot ran down taxiway "A" and caught up to the Beech 1900 aircraft, opened the rear cargo entry door, busted through the rear bulkhead, ran past all the seated passengers and went through the 'cock'pit doors only the grab the Captain by the neck and choke him until his pretty golden eppaulets fell off his freshly pressed white starched shirt that his mother so lovingly ironed the night prior.

If it was not for the quick thinking reaction from the first officer (newly graduated from Seneca Aviation College) by pressing "PLAY" on the onboard cassette player to sound the boarding music from Air Canada's theme song by Celine Dion entitled "You and I" which resulted in the 'attacker' letting go of the neck of the Georgian captain and clutching his ears in riving pain. Then both Georgian pilots proceeded to use their company issued mint Green "Crocs"™ ® (pictured below) to subdew the bald ethnic attacker.

[4Stroke]

[Cat Driver]

CLASSIC

[GilletteNorth]

Instructions for filling out AOR's (CADORS)...

1. remember, the AOR is a public document;
2. provide the pertinent facts in sufficient detail for the reader to understand what happened while keeping the summary brief;
3. do not include opinions, observations or conclusions in the AOR Summary. Report only the facts. (e.g. stating that the pilot violated CARS is a conclusion; stating that the aircraft departed in 1/8 mile visibility is a fact);
4. do not include personal information in the AOR;
5. similar information may be grouped (e.g. multiple aircraft departing below weather limits etc).

Reportable Occurrences:

A. aircraft accident;
B. aircraft incident;
C. operating irregularity; or (R) 151.1C. Reference: Operating Irregularity; 153.
D. any other reportable incident.

151.1D. Note 1:
Accidents, incidents and other occurrences are reported in accordance with the Transport Canada Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System (CADORS) and with NAV CANADA requirements.
151.1D. Note 2:
Reportable occurrences include:
a. accidental death or serious injury to an employee or a member of the public;
b. any declared or indicated emergency;
c. engine failure;
d. difficulty in controlling the aircraft in flight;
e. smoke or fire on board the aircraft;
f. leakage of toxic or corrosive material;
g. aircraft decompression;
h. incapacitation of crew members;
i. any collision or risk of collision with an aircraft, a vehicle, terrain, or a pedestrian;
j. any ACAS/TCAS resolution advisory or GPWS/TAWS warning;
k. loss of separation;
l. failure to remain within the take-off area;
m. unplanned or emergency release of an external load (“sling load”);
n. bird or wildlife strike;
o. aircraft in weather difficulty or lost;
p. laser or other directed bright light illumination;
q. report of missing aircraft;
r. failure of a navigational aid, approach aid, communications system, airport lighting, or a power failure;
s. operation without a serviceable transponder and automatic pressure-altitude reporting equipment (excluding balloons and gliders) in transponder airspace;
t. reports of AWOS errors;
u. fuel shortage or use of incorrect fuel;
v. item dropped from an aircraft in flight;
w. significant ATS system problem which would limit the flow of traffic;
x. unavailability of a runway resulting in a major impact on aerodrome operations;
y. ELT signal heard or reported outside authorized testing period;
z. significant building or equipment fire;
aa. environmental emergency;
bb. unauthorized incursion;
cc. criminal action;
dd. unlawful use of ATS frequencies;
ee. ATS unit operating outside published hours;
ff. labour action affecting operation capability;
gg. regulatory infraction;
hh. unlawful interference (aircraft hijacking);
ii. terrorist activities;
jj. hostage taking;
kk. ATS evacuation due to potential hazard;
ll. dangerous goods spill, fuel spill, or major environmental incidents that affect operations;
mm. Bomb threat or bomb found;
nn. Any occurrence which might generate a high degree of public interest or concern or could be of direct interest to a foreign air authority; or
oo. Any other event which is irregular, unplanned or non-routine in nature which has an adverse effect upon flight safety or a major impact upon operations.

I typed this directly out of MANOPs so hopefully I haven't made any errors however...

*** NOTE: not to be used for legal purposes, posted for information use only ***

[crazyaviator]

Cat driver, I have had discussions with higher up folks at TC - Toronto and their "take" on the SMS is this : They are looking for incidents in the cadors to gauge your companies level of maturity, ability, and functionality of your in house SMS program, too many Cadors and your system isnt functioning well ,,,too FEW or none at all and your SMS system is not functioning well. It must take a room of decipherers to figure out which companies are actually doing well!! What SMS will never do is ( As you well know ) "fix" the bottom feeder companies ( few) who create (most) of the problems and incidents and accidents ! Enforcement and auditing resumes when an SMS operating company fails to comply with SMS and produces either poor self audits or poor or no corrective actions or no problems are revealed from the audit with corrective actions taken, or to many Cadors on the company. Good companies operate a kind of SMS , ITS CALLED MS ! Transport Canada ( Toronto) would like it called MS instead of SMS ,,,because that is exactly what it is !!! Good management and good relations between all in the company produces a functioning SMS system irrelevant of any overseeing authorities !! I used to work for a small company that has been in busines over 40 years , it is a command and control type of company and there is 1 director of EVERYTHING ! The DOM is a puppet ! Shit happens at that company and shall continue to happen BECAUSE the director of everything is the owner and he is old school , meaning he is in control of everything ( 14 employees) and there is NO good organization, no true rectification of ongoing system faults, no communication as to how to make things better, safer etc etc etc etc ! SMS will NEVER work for this type of company,, and for a very good company ,,,,SMS is actually an added, duplicate system for a good company that already has a good system in place ( very few do ) Transport Canada has to make it clear that companies need to EARN self management. TC still needs to audit on occasion , even with good companies. For bad companies, SMS is a joke and continous audits and revoking of the certificates are the only way to go . Just my 2 cents folks !

[Cat Driver]

I used to work for a small company that has been in busines over 40 years , it is a command and control type of company and there is 1 director of EVERYTHING ! The DOM is a puppet ! Shit happens at that company and shall continue to happen BECAUSE the director of everything is the owner and he is old school , meaning he is in control of everything ( 14 employees) and there is NO good organization, no true rectification of ongoing system faults, no communication as to how to make things better, safer etc etc etc etc ! SMS will NEVER work for this type of company,,

Therein lies the true problem the industry has been like this forever.

I also have seen many operations exactly as you describe above, the perplexing thing is how in hell do these people stay in business for forty years?

If TC were unaware of that operator for 40 years one must ask the obvious question, why were they not aware of that operators management style.

I'm getting a headache just thinking about it.......I'm so happy to have survived over 50 years in aviation in Canada I can not describe the feeling of reliefe I feel waking up every morning " Free at last from the madness that passes for an industry that is a joke safety and regulation wise. "

You all take care and try and survive as long as I have. It wasen't easy.

. E.

[crazyaviator]

Yes , I agree with you ! Its about the heart , Some call it human nature, Some call it evil, some call it sin , however way you choose, its a human condition that is UNCURABLE by itself !! Transport in Canada is not perfect because of the above and NEVER SHALL be as long as mere humans and human nature is in control . Continue the good fight BECAUSE , there is only 1 other option at this time and that is 3rd world , dictatorial foolishness which is FAR worse than the sad situation we are trying to "fix" today !!!