Can you legally continue the flight ...

[flyinthebug]

I swore I was going to leave this alone.. but mag check, I dont understand why you are riding swordfish so hard? Hes right in all he is saying. I said earlier in this post that your comparing apples to oranges, and you are. If we are strictly discussing an old bi-plane or DHC-2 then of course, even *I* might be able to fly-er without an ASI. I suggested an ASI was a very necessary part of approaches etc. I pointed out why and my reasoning. I believe its valid.

So in accord with most on here, yes, im sure its done everyday.. guys fly VFR without a functioning ASI. IFR, night, etc.. i`ll keep the ASI as a primary instrument on my scan:)

The original question was whether he was breaking a reg and my answer was and remains, yes. Any subsequent leg after his first, he was breaking a reg. Having an functioning ASI became a REG as a step towards better safety then we had in 1929 in aviation. Maybe they are not a "required" instrument but to me, they are a valuable one.

Fly safe all.

[Cat Driver]

605.14 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of day VFR flight unless it is equipped with

...

(c) an airspeed indicator;

This is a very clear regulation.

If you got in an airplane and found someone had removed the airspeed indicator from the instrument panel you would be in contravention of that CAR if you take off without the airspeed indicator in the panel.

[square]

Ok this is pretty straightforward. It's negligent to take off without an airspeed indicator because it puts you at risk of stalling on approach. And I've had 4 ASI failures in the past 6 months, so I know how to mitigate it, but it is just plain bad airmanship to say an ASI is 'no big deal' the way you'd shrug off a .. I don't know you shouldn't be shrugging off little stuff either, but this isn't a little one. It's a legal requirement and a safety item. So you should, as they say, make it look good for the accident report.

[mag check]

, I dont understand why you are riding swordfish so hard?

Because he seems to think that I'm "dumbing down" aviation.

Seriously guys, I am shocked that a bunch of so called aviation professionals think that an ASI is some kind of tell all instrument that is going to keep them from stalling, and crashing.

Someone PLEASE tell me that I'm not the only one that understands that angle of attack is what is important.

An ASI is very capable of being off >100mph at stall. That sure sounds usefull.

Legally required, YES.
Something I would stare at, in hopes of it saving my life, I think not.

Did these guys break the law? Not if the ASI was in the dash, as Cat Driver said.

[Cat Driver]

Training pilots using the fear method to imprint the belief that the failure of an airspeed indicator is reason to go into panic mode is dumbing down flying training.

The airspeed indicator when working properly is a very valuable instrument to cross check the performance of the thing you are flying, however there are many other clues and instruments that will allow you to safely continue the flight.

I get real uneasy when I hear this mantra of " airspeed alive " during the take off roll.......breeding this fear into a new pilot is setting up a scan from outside the airplane to inside the airplane that can lead to the pilot missing some other visual clue that may result in a loss of control or running off the runway looking for something that does not prevent you from continuing the take off under complete control.

Ever heard of flying attitude when visual?

Airspeed alive means SFA as far as determining just how the accurate airspeed indication will be once airborne.

Anyhow this conversation will just keep going down hill so before I go and get a 357 Magnum and shoot myself I think I'll just sit back and watch this argument unfold.

[flyinthebug]

Fair enough mag check. I had to review the thread to see where swordfish may have indicated something to that effect .. Me personally, could really use an explanation of the actual meaning of "The dumbing down" of aviation? Im not sure I understand how that would be considered an insult?. Maybe you or Cat could offer me a better understanding or example of what dumbing down means?. I certainly understand the term, but not certain I am applying it correctly in this senario?.

Fly safe.

Edit.. I just read your post Cat and thank you, I do now understand what the term "dumbing down" means in this regard.

I am surprised that calling "airspeeds alive" on the take off roll disturbs you? I was trained that way since the day I started flying.. and each subsequent training capt has trained me that way as well. I have trained others that way. At certain airlines its an SOP! I like seeing my 2 ASIs come alive on the take off roll (as PNF or PF).. and YEs damn it! I do monitor the ASI on take off rolls. Why is that wrong? I do not so much on floats.. I do that more by feel of course.. but on wheels and definately in any two crew environment i`ve been in.. Its been airspeeds alive as a "standard" call, and I made it part of our SOPs. Could you please take this a bit deeper and explain why me being trained for 15 years this way is incorrect? Or that the way I have trained others over the years is incorrect? Transport made a HUGE deal of it on a PA31-350 ride of mine years ago. They chastized the First Officer for NOT calling "airspeed alive". They said it confirmed to the PF that both sides ASIs were functioning and "reasonably" accurate. I was also challenged by another Tc inspector on a SPIFR ride on the same aircraft type. He wanted to HEAR me call it..as a way of him knowing that I was acknowledging airspeed.

I have since always trained two crew that way. If this is incorrect or wrong, please fill me in.

Thanks Cat.

[mag check]

Training pilots using the fear method to imprint the belief that the failure of an airspeed indicator is reason to go into panic mode is dumbing down flying training.

The airspeed indicator when working properly is a very valuable instrument to cross check the performance of the thing you are flying, however there are many other clues and instruments that will allow you to safely continue the flight.

I get real uneasy when I hear this mantra of " airspeed alive " during the take off roll.......breeding this fear into a new pilot is setting up a scan from outside the airplane to inside the airplane that can lead to the pilot missing some other visual clue that may result in a loss of control or running off the runway looking for something that does not prevent you from continuing the take off under complete control.

Ever heard of flying attitude when visual?

Airspeed alive means SFA as far as determining just how the accurate airspeed indication will be once airborne.

Anyhow this conversation will just keep going down hill so before I go and get a 357 Magnum and shoot myself I think I'll just sit back and watch this argument unfold.

Thank you Cat, I figured at least you would get it. Anyone who doesn't, should.

I'm done, it's night here, and I'm thirsty

[contrite]

"...I get real uneasy when I hear this mantra of " airspeed alive " during the take off roll.......breeding this fear into a new pilot is setting up a scan from outside the airplane to inside the airplane that can lead to the pilot missing some other visual clue that may result in a loss of control or running off the runway looking for something that does not prevent you from continuing the take off under complete control...."

There's a couple of hundred German tourists that ended up as shark food off the coast of the Dominican Republic because some guy who knew better didn't worry enough about a malfunctioning ASI on the take-off roll. And Doc, that was a ten-thousand hour pilot in command of that one.

It's interesting that on this thread, pilots are being derided for advocating paying attention to the ASI, and on the 3407 thread they're being slagged for not watching it closely enough.

[Cat Driver]

Thank you Cat, I figured at least you would get it. Anyone who doesn't, should.

I am also available for marriage counseling and advice on social diseases.

[flyinthebug]

Man you guys are fast! lol.. Cat pls read my edited post above. Thanks.

[square]

No, not "fair enough mag check," the guy is speaking in idiot. Don't listen to him. He is quite simply one hundred percent wrong. Stop talking to people that fly airplanes right now.

[flyinthebug]

LOL! ok square, they are all yours
/me kicks some sand and goes home.

[Cat Driver]

Come on out here and we will cover up the airspeed indicator and see if we can fly the thing safely.

Oh dear blessed Jesus if I cover up the airspeed indicator will I be in violation of some regulation and TC will finally bust me?

[B-rad]

Someone PLEASE tell me that I'm not the only one that understands that angle of attack is what is important.

Mag check, I agree completely with you and understand what you are saying here. Angle of attack is the important factor. The ASI can help you determine as far as how much room/speed/lift or whatever you want to call it you have left before the stall and in a VFR flight as a skilled pilot you could be able to use many other clues to help you determine this as well. I believe this is actually one of the major points talked about in Wolfgang Langewieshe's book "Stick and Rudder" that gets such high reviews from so many AvCanadians.

As you mentioned before, stick position is one of the ways during a glide/approach to determine how close you are to a stall and to be able to fly safely. As we gain experience flying we start to understand which clues to listen to and what to look for but on the other side of the coin, I do like having an airspeed indicator for the information it helps me with and be able to fly "by the numbers" that I have been trained to.

[foxmoth]

OK i get it, finally. it was a reneactment of some flight (the famous Wop May/Vic Horner one???)
guess my reading is poor.
Still, this thread has convinced me I never want to fly with anyone posting on it.
You guys could not stay on topic long enough to do a takeoff cheklist and get me into the air.
you are all toast!
no, its worse could not do a taxi check and get me off the ramp!

[swordfish]

cat advises:

I am also available for marriage counseling and advice on social diseases.

Not bad for an old coot...

[Check Pilot]

This thread is getting really stupid.

So ya don't need an ASI eh?. In 1929 spurs were banned from cockpits too. That rule eventually disappeared. The rules for VFR equipment didn't change though. The rules still said you needed a working airspeed indicator all the time.

Then somebody makes comments on some other thread here about some sleazy Operator that wants you to fly with "snags" and everyone goes nuts about those sleazy operators that are trying to pressure the pilots because they're too ignorant to stand up for themselves and won't fly because something is broken. Then somebody says the rules that require an ASI are stupid and you should know because you're some kind of better hero pilot than that.

Begeezus, that's the kind of attitude that drives me nuts.

If you lazy idiots would get those iPod's out of your now deaf ears and throw your Blackberry's in the ditch and just sit down and figure out how come we have these so called "stupid" rules came to be in the first place maybe you'd understand.

Obviously some of you here don't have the time, motivation or inclination to do that. If you stumbled out of High school with a minor ability to read or write the English language, you might be able to understand why the rules were put in place. Not that today's teachers have time to even care about that kind of work ethic though. - That's another off topic thread somewhere however. -You lazy idiots can't even score a zero in school any more because the teachers can't justify their laziness either so you should feel good about everything too.

cn;t reed cmt spel, cdan;t add, dosent mitter duz it?

CAR's - what are those? - Cant read them anyways. I'm just a pilot after all.

When the hell do people these days have to take care of themselves? Not anymore, it seems.

So the rules have said for a long time ago say you have to have to have an airspeed indicator. If you said it's stupid to have a rule that says that, you are free to go to some sleazy operator that agrees with you. Go and fly without one then. Just MEL it and it'll be fine. I'm sure your maintenance guy will go along with it when the boss says it's O.K.

With your newfound zero ability to read or think for that matter, the rules are just some kind of weirdo mystery, aren't they? Just go and do what the boss wants. You are free to go flying with junk equipment that may or may not get you dead on the next trip.

That's up to you bunky. Just keep your pathetic work ethic to yourself.

And then wind up in a crash just like another thread leads you to that mentions criminal convictions because you just wouldn't listen or learn.

I can only hope that your mother comes running out of the doghouse and bites you on the lower leg.

[B-rad]

This thread is getting really stupid.

You're right. And I feel slightly dumber after reading through your post.

[Cat Driver]

Check pilot you can get help for your problem, Schick Shadel hospital in Seattle has a program that may help you.

[foxmoth]

yeah, Cat but his problem is dumb pilots. Does this place youthanize pilots???

Check Pilot you largely right, have to say.

[Cat Driver]

Foxmoth, the issue is quite simple.

An airspeed indicator is a legal requirement.

Just because the airspeed indicator is in the airplane does not mean it will work properly at all times.

Should you have a failure of the airspeed indicator at any phase of a given flight you should be able to safely fly the airplane and land it when able and get it fixed.

Ranting on and on about sleasy maintenance is throwing a red herring into a simple issue......the best maintained of airplanes can develop airspeed problems for many reasons.

[foxmoth]

agreed, Cat
i just have a problem with 'pilots' who say ASI is not 'necessary' and float off on fancies about
angle of attack blah blah. maybe these people never had a total electic failure in imc.
and yu are right. boil it down, it is not a maintenance issue. the more stuff (redundant) i have, the happier I am.

[mag check]

agreed, Cat
i just have a problem with 'pilots' who say ASI is not 'necessary' and float off on fancies about
angle of attack blah blah. maybe these people never had a total electic failure in imc.
and yu are right. boil it down, it is not a maintenance issue. the more stuff (redundant) i have, the happier I am.

For the last time;

If you guys could read, you would know that I said the ASI is important in IMC conditions.
I have stated this in more than one post.

You can blah blah blah me all you want, but I will stand my ground on angle of attack.

If aircraft were required to have AOA instruments, then you would see the base to final stall spin fatal crashes stop overnight.

It is very simple, the ASI is REQUIRED by law to be in the aircraft.

If you look back to my original post, you will see that I answered the question asked, and gave my reason for my answer. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

For some reason, most people here seem to be oblivious to aerodynamic principals, and feel that an ASI is some all knowing instrument.

IMO, and I will repeat, IMO, an ASI is a handy instrument, but I believe that it is possibly the second most unreliable gauge on the dash, after the fuel gauge.

There are too many variables to know if what you are looking at is correct.
It will NOT give you an accurate stall speed, it will NOT give you an accurate VMC, it will NOT even give an accurate cruising speed.
So what will it give you? Some semi-accurate structural speeds, VNE, VFE, etc. which may not even be relevant for the aircraft.

Pilots who fixate on an ASI end up like the ones that crashed the 757 off Cuba.
They kept pulling the power back, and pulling the nose up, because a plugged port was telling them they were overspeeding. No point in actually thinking about how a plane flies, just stare at that ASI, it will save you.

Get real.


Cat, if your counsuling includes some time on the water, sailing, then count me in

[Cat Driver]

Cat, if your counsuling includes some time on the water, sailing, then count me in

You mean in this toy?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ ... C00240.jpg

When I traded flying for a living for this life style it was better than getting rid of a chronic case of the clap.

It was not the flying that I found unpleasant it was the mindless crap that I had to endure as the industry became more dumbed down.

[mag check]

Yes I mean that

We are in the middle of a pretty hard winter, so it's been quite a few months since our sail boats have got wet.

Any time you need a sail trimmer, let me know.