ahhhhhh, like what your doing now...
Except wait, he's the pro. Hey, you ever see conspiracy theory? Mel Gibson was awsome how he figured all that stuff out, even though he had a screw loose.
That was really a good movie.
is jetsgo shutting down
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
Jetsgo might have picked up the FKs at a good time - EUJet (an airline having a much ropier time than Jetsgo) are using a good lot, KLM are apparently in the market, the 717 line is on the way out.
Who wants to be that a Quebec based airline who might be in the market for a putative C-Series when the MDs and FKs are done would be found a way to survive by the statist provincial government?
(oh and I see Jetsgo did not fail over the weekend as someone was touting...)
Who wants to be that a Quebec based airline who might be in the market for a putative C-Series when the MDs and FKs are done would be found a way to survive by the statist provincial government?
(oh and I see Jetsgo did not fail over the weekend as someone was touting...)
"We haven't released any information that would cause the price rise," said WestJet spokeswoman Siobhan Vinish, who added that the discount carrier didn't wish to comment further on "fluctuations in our stock price."
Kudos to Sibhan Vinish who had the good sense and character to keep her mouth shut when there was nothing to report !!!
What stands out to me in this report is that it seems mostly based on the fact that Fokker 100's are crummy old fuel hogs.
I always thought that they were a fairly new and advanced aircraft. I know that they aren't quite as spiffy as the 737-600 and the A318, but still, are they really that bad?
Correct me if I'm wrong but:
F100 = 4000 lb/hr / 100 pax = 40 lb/hr/pax
737-700 = 5200 lb/hr / 136 pax = 38/lb/hr/pax
I think that they both cruise at about the same speed, so is 5% a huge deal when your finance cost is so much less?
I know that margins are tight but it would seem to be a bit overblown.
I always thought that they were a fairly new and advanced aircraft. I know that they aren't quite as spiffy as the 737-600 and the A318, but still, are they really that bad?
Correct me if I'm wrong but:
F100 = 4000 lb/hr / 100 pax = 40 lb/hr/pax
737-700 = 5200 lb/hr / 136 pax = 38/lb/hr/pax
I think that they both cruise at about the same speed, so is 5% a huge deal when your finance cost is so much less?
I know that margins are tight but it would seem to be a bit overblown.
I'm not defending anyone but I tend to side with your reasoning bezerker.
While we aren't privy to all the various financial deals the airlines have some details are obvious. Do the math. If the MD-83's are leased and LeBlanc has perhaps 1.5 million dollars invested into each of his 13 Fokkers, then he is still miles ahead financially from the major expenditure that his competition is spending for their new generation aircraft. So arguably, he has an advantage in starting up the airline with a cheaper & very competitive aircraft. The conversation must then switch to non-aircraft-type issues.
I would guess that where he would be weaker in his business plan is that he is up against more established market players with solid customer support and he is going to have to find ways to draw the customers to his airline, and win them back for repeat business!!.
While still in the startup/growth mode he is facing a battle to train personnel fast enough etc to satisfy the growth demand new aircraft and routes require of a company. You can't work the existing people to death for too long. Sooner or later they will find a better employment deal. They'll have to find incentives to get all the employees on board and work their hearts out and then be rewarded for it. It takes time to develop new workers to their reach their potential. New people (I don't mean the pilots, but operations type of workers) are obviously not seasoned or as skilled in dealing with the challenges of operating an airline and relating to customers.
Also, the costs of this startup carrier must be enormous- although the major costs are not all just in aircraft. One-time expenditures like startup costs can only come down by amortizing them over a long time period (like 5/10 years etc.). The only way to gain market share and get the whole system going is to creatively draw passengers away from their established travel patterns with lower prices, in-your-face-advertising and his travel miles program.
The costs of having to offer lower ticket prices and pay for this advertising must be enormous. My viewpoint is that if he can succeed during this the slower times of the year, then he will over time keep the airline on it's rails and one day perhaps quite successful. Maybe it's just me but I always get a kick out of seeing the underdog win against all odds, and my gut feeling is that he will pull it off.
I hope everyone there can rise to the occassion and pull up their socks to help the airline succeed. There are more reasons why they will succeed rather than reasons why Jetsgo won't!
While we aren't privy to all the various financial deals the airlines have some details are obvious. Do the math. If the MD-83's are leased and LeBlanc has perhaps 1.5 million dollars invested into each of his 13 Fokkers, then he is still miles ahead financially from the major expenditure that his competition is spending for their new generation aircraft. So arguably, he has an advantage in starting up the airline with a cheaper & very competitive aircraft. The conversation must then switch to non-aircraft-type issues.
I would guess that where he would be weaker in his business plan is that he is up against more established market players with solid customer support and he is going to have to find ways to draw the customers to his airline, and win them back for repeat business!!.
While still in the startup/growth mode he is facing a battle to train personnel fast enough etc to satisfy the growth demand new aircraft and routes require of a company. You can't work the existing people to death for too long. Sooner or later they will find a better employment deal. They'll have to find incentives to get all the employees on board and work their hearts out and then be rewarded for it. It takes time to develop new workers to their reach their potential. New people (I don't mean the pilots, but operations type of workers) are obviously not seasoned or as skilled in dealing with the challenges of operating an airline and relating to customers.
Also, the costs of this startup carrier must be enormous- although the major costs are not all just in aircraft. One-time expenditures like startup costs can only come down by amortizing them over a long time period (like 5/10 years etc.). The only way to gain market share and get the whole system going is to creatively draw passengers away from their established travel patterns with lower prices, in-your-face-advertising and his travel miles program.
The costs of having to offer lower ticket prices and pay for this advertising must be enormous. My viewpoint is that if he can succeed during this the slower times of the year, then he will over time keep the airline on it's rails and one day perhaps quite successful. Maybe it's just me but I always get a kick out of seeing the underdog win against all odds, and my gut feeling is that he will pull it off.
I hope everyone there can rise to the occassion and pull up their socks to help the airline succeed. There are more reasons why they will succeed rather than reasons why Jetsgo won't!
Is this sale a last ditch effort to lure customers, or just to prove they're still in business?
$1 fares from Toronto all week long at Jetsgo
MONTREAL, Feb. 1 /CNW/ - Jetsgo is offering its famous $1 fares from
Toronto to 17 scheduled destinations across Canada. Bookings can be made until
February 6.
Reservations for this sale can be made on Jetsgo's Web site at
http://www.jetsgo.net. A return purchase at regular low fares is required with
regular taxes and surcharges applying. Full details are available at
http://www.jetsgo.net.
$1 fares from Toronto all week long at Jetsgo
MONTREAL, Feb. 1 /CNW/ - Jetsgo is offering its famous $1 fares from
Toronto to 17 scheduled destinations across Canada. Bookings can be made until
February 6.
Reservations for this sale can be made on Jetsgo's Web site at
http://www.jetsgo.net. A return purchase at regular low fares is required with
regular taxes and surcharges applying. Full details are available at
http://www.jetsgo.net.
It's God mission to do as much propaganda against the infidel (Air Canada & Jetsgo) as possible to stir up the troops and to get some attention, since the only attention he's getting is lawsuits and low stocks and low yield.
God's statement to the troop
I think God forgot to mention that since 1996 and most recently, we have seen the emergence of JETSGO, CANJET, SKYSERVICE and AIR TRANSAT.
Of course it is wrong for Air Canada and Jetsgo to sue Wetsjet, but it's OK for Westjet to spy on them
It's OK for Westjet to slander and to do everything possible to eliminate or damage the competition (Jetsgo) but it's wrong for them to respond.
God's crazy and his fanatic following are so brainwashed, they won't see the irony of it all.
God's statement to the troop
Well, well, well.It is clear that Air Canada is trying to eliminate Westjet as a competitor. The use of the Court process to achieve this is wrong. It is clear to us that Air Canada ongoing campaign is the result of our expansion since 1996. Since that period Air Canada domestic market share has decreased.
I think God forgot to mention that since 1996 and most recently, we have seen the emergence of JETSGO, CANJET, SKYSERVICE and AIR TRANSAT.
Of course it is wrong for Air Canada and Jetsgo to sue Wetsjet, but it's OK for Westjet to spy on them
It's OK for Westjet to slander and to do everything possible to eliminate or damage the competition (Jetsgo) but it's wrong for them to respond.
God's crazy and his fanatic following are so brainwashed, they won't see the irony of it all.
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tripleseven
- Rank 4
- Posts: 266
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 9:56 am
Am I the only one who noticed this? Alot of average Canadians are investing alot of money into these guys.Rebel wrote:
Rick Erickson, a Calgary-based independent analyst, agreed it is premature to predict Jetsgo's demise without having access to its books. "Somebody must be making some investments in them so they can go out and buy aircraft," Mr. Erickson said. "And I don't hear of any airports going out trying to garnishee their aircraft, so they must be paying their bills."
© National Post 2005
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Rubberbiscuit
- Rank 8
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:02 pm
Last edited by Rubberbiscuit on Mon May 30, 2005 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think God forgot to mention that since 1996 and most recently, we have seen the emergence of JETSGO, CANJET, SKYSERVICE and AIR TRANSAT.
Blastor... what the hell are you talking about...emergence of AT...
we've been around since 1987... but, hey, no where near domestic!!!
Get your facts straight buddy
Blastor... what the hell are you talking about...emergence of AT...
we've been around since 1987... but, hey, no where near domestic!!!
Get your facts straight buddy
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Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1847
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
Lots of fightin words!!! I see a few guys in here saying they feel for the employees of JG and we should not celebrate the demise of any airline. I agree............to a point.
A few years ago, most WJ people thought they were gods and nothing could stop them. Well boys, your bubble ain't as big as it used to be and I have to say, what goes around comes around.
So for any WJ pilot to say in here that they would not celebrate the demise of an airline, is a hypocrit.
This is how much of the industry sees you guys.
A few years ago, most WJ people thought they were gods and nothing could stop them. Well boys, your bubble ain't as big as it used to be and I have to say, what goes around comes around.
So for any WJ pilot to say in here that they would not celebrate the demise of an airline, is a hypocrit.
This is how much of the industry sees you guys.
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Typhoon pilot
- Rank 2
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:32 pm
[quote="Jaques Strappe"]Lots of fightin words!!! I see a few guys in here saying they feel for the employees of JG and we should not celebrate the demise of any airline. I agree............to a point.
Do you and to what point ? Since when is the loss of ones livelyhood anything to celebrate?
A few years ago, most WJ people thought they were gods and nothing could stop them. Well boys, your bubble ain't as big as it used to be and I have to say, what goes around comes around.
You are very right in that remark. Some senior guys still have some of that complex. And some are real a##$*^@# about it. To bad for them! If the demise of the competion is the greatest thing they have to look forward too it sucks to be them.
So for any WJ pilot to say in here that they would not celebrate the demise of an airline, is a hypocrit.
No I wouldn't and yep I'm a WJ pilot. I have several friends at SG and they don't deserve the EI line any more than you. Perhaps the profit sharing would go up and maybe the stock. So. If your life revolves so much around $$$ then you have my sympathies. No I don't make alot and probably will never get rich but my sked is good and I hope the company is stable enough that the resume can stay in the file folder for a few years.
This is how much of the industry sees you guys.[/quote]
Well its the same old story a few diehard fanatics always @#$! it up for those who just want to go to work.
Interesting views though. Painting everyone with the same brush ain't that cool either. I guess some drank more kool aid than others mine came in a thimble not a 45 gal. drum.
Do you and to what point ? Since when is the loss of ones livelyhood anything to celebrate?
A few years ago, most WJ people thought they were gods and nothing could stop them. Well boys, your bubble ain't as big as it used to be and I have to say, what goes around comes around.
You are very right in that remark. Some senior guys still have some of that complex. And some are real a##$*^@# about it. To bad for them! If the demise of the competion is the greatest thing they have to look forward too it sucks to be them.
So for any WJ pilot to say in here that they would not celebrate the demise of an airline, is a hypocrit.
No I wouldn't and yep I'm a WJ pilot. I have several friends at SG and they don't deserve the EI line any more than you. Perhaps the profit sharing would go up and maybe the stock. So. If your life revolves so much around $$$ then you have my sympathies. No I don't make alot and probably will never get rich but my sked is good and I hope the company is stable enough that the resume can stay in the file folder for a few years.
This is how much of the industry sees you guys.[/quote]
Well its the same old story a few diehard fanatics always @#$! it up for those who just want to go to work.
Interesting views though. Painting everyone with the same brush ain't that cool either. I guess some drank more kool aid than others mine came in a thimble not a 45 gal. drum.
Live like you will die today
Dream like you will live forever
Dream like you will live forever
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Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1847
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
Typhoon
I won't argue with you. I am not sure how long you have been with WJ but I would guess not since the beginning. I have watched WJ grow, shared buses on the way to the hotel with crews and have seen what they have to say in here. These senior guys you speak of, were always gentlemen.
I cannot speak for you individually as I do not know you. Unfortunately for you however, a few of your colleagues do display this attitude I speak of and it does tarnish all.
When AC was circling the drain the comments were at an all time high. Now that the skies at WJ are not as bright, there has been a noticeable decrease. The new target seems to be JG.
All I am saying is that, when many of us are sitting around a pub table enjoying a frosty one on a layover, if the subject of WJ comes up, it is usually a what comes around goes around sentiment.
Sorry if I offended you, that was not my intent. This is simply how many of us view WJ. Not necessarily you.
I won't argue with you. I am not sure how long you have been with WJ but I would guess not since the beginning. I have watched WJ grow, shared buses on the way to the hotel with crews and have seen what they have to say in here. These senior guys you speak of, were always gentlemen.
I cannot speak for you individually as I do not know you. Unfortunately for you however, a few of your colleagues do display this attitude I speak of and it does tarnish all.
When AC was circling the drain the comments were at an all time high. Now that the skies at WJ are not as bright, there has been a noticeable decrease. The new target seems to be JG.
All I am saying is that, when many of us are sitting around a pub table enjoying a frosty one on a layover, if the subject of WJ comes up, it is usually a what comes around goes around sentiment.
Sorry if I offended you, that was not my intent. This is simply how many of us view WJ. Not necessarily you.
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Typhoon pilot
- Rank 2
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:32 pm
It wasn't taken as a jab.
It was more of a personal rant at how the FEW have tarnished it for the rest. Sad life if all you have is insults and nit picking to entertain oneself.
Some guys seem happy only when taking pleasure in others discomfort.
I did like the god comment though because after all god backwards is dog.
Safe flying.
Cheers
Typhoon Pilot
It was more of a personal rant at how the FEW have tarnished it for the rest. Sad life if all you have is insults and nit picking to entertain oneself.
Some guys seem happy only when taking pleasure in others discomfort.
I did like the god comment though because after all god backwards is dog.
Safe flying.
Cheers
Typhoon Pilot
Live like you will die today
Dream like you will live forever
Dream like you will live forever
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complexintentions
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2186
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
- Location: of my pants is unknown.
Jacques,
I'd wager that the gentlemen you met with several years ago were in the main, ex-C3 pilots or high-time corporate guys. Not to say that WJ hasn't hired any experienced folks in the last few years but MAN, HR has picked a lot of beauties too. Certain hires simply don't make sense with what's out there to choose from, but hey, when you have HR (god don't make me say "People Dept.! ) making decisions on all kinds of criteria outside of operational ability/experience, that can happen. The things that have gone on with some of the training! Interesting that of the slightly more than 50 guys that have quit WJ since inception, about 50 of them have been...ex-C3! In other words, the single pilot group with the most experience, has been the single biggest group of leavers.
Why do I mention this? Because I think it's largely responsible for the attitude of, admittedly few, WJ'ers. Typhoon, you sound totally decent, but when I can read on a thread elsewhere some WJ guy smugly referring to JG as "the weakest link", well...everyone loves to see the proud fall.
I'd wager that the gentlemen you met with several years ago were in the main, ex-C3 pilots or high-time corporate guys. Not to say that WJ hasn't hired any experienced folks in the last few years but MAN, HR has picked a lot of beauties too. Certain hires simply don't make sense with what's out there to choose from, but hey, when you have HR (god don't make me say "People Dept.! ) making decisions on all kinds of criteria outside of operational ability/experience, that can happen. The things that have gone on with some of the training! Interesting that of the slightly more than 50 guys that have quit WJ since inception, about 50 of them have been...ex-C3! In other words, the single pilot group with the most experience, has been the single biggest group of leavers.
Why do I mention this? Because I think it's largely responsible for the attitude of, admittedly few, WJ'ers. Typhoon, you sound totally decent, but when I can read on a thread elsewhere some WJ guy smugly referring to JG as "the weakest link", well...everyone loves to see the proud fall.
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Canus Chinookus
- Rank 7
- Posts: 707
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:30 pm
[quote="Canus Chinookus"]I just spit all over my screen.
"single pilot group with the most experience" are you kidding me? Experience with what?[/quote
I flown with a bunch of really good ex C3 people. It's not the 'C3' types IMO, it's the C3 types with military background that don't like it. I used to work within ALPA and in the down south meetings were the same 'C3, military' type (who doesn't like WestJet) then hated C3. I am painting everyone with the same brush here so sorry if I offend someone. I also don't agree the C3'ers have the most experienced background either.
I agree with pilot hiring, we seem to hire good classes for the most part but every now and then they like to hire a 10,000 hour all VFR Twin Otter pilot and throw him in the 700 initial, maybe somebony's idea of a joke. It give the training department a pet project to say the least.
"single pilot group with the most experience" are you kidding me? Experience with what?[/quote
I flown with a bunch of really good ex C3 people. It's not the 'C3' types IMO, it's the C3 types with military background that don't like it. I used to work within ALPA and in the down south meetings were the same 'C3, military' type (who doesn't like WestJet) then hated C3. I am painting everyone with the same brush here so sorry if I offend someone. I also don't agree the C3'ers have the most experienced background either.
I agree with pilot hiring, we seem to hire good classes for the most part but every now and then they like to hire a 10,000 hour all VFR Twin Otter pilot and throw him in the 700 initial, maybe somebony's idea of a joke. It give the training department a pet project to say the least.
Last edited by WJ700 on Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
The arrogance at WJ is the root problem of WJ toubles and also its achile heel.
BTW, Jetsgo is still alive and doing well, thank you very much!
Have you read this
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 6609#46609
BTW, Jetsgo is still alive and doing well, thank you very much!
Have you read this
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 6609#46609
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complexintentions
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2186
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
- Location: of my pants is unknown.
easy there CC, I'm not insured if you choke to death...
Let me expand my statement to say, the single most experienced pilot GROUP that WestJet has drawn on...every single ex-C3 pilot came with international experience on a heavy jet. The same can not be said of any other GROUP, not even Jazz who operates a mixed fleet, certainly not the multitude of King Air, Metro, Twin Otter, Beech 1900 operators, etc etc. Certainly there is a lot of experience from all sides, corporate guys, heck there's even the token ex-CX and ex-AC (to each their own), but I stand by what I said: the only other airline group that operated equipment similar or more capable than WJ, that WJ has/was able to hire from en masse, was C3. (It helped they were all unemployed.) And who has the most represented group of people who have left. Simple facts. I would also submit that in the most recent years, who WJ hires has been more due to the "internal referral" effect than their love of a particular company. ie one CMA guy gets on, one Borek, whatever, then two and so on. As WestJet says, they hire for personality, they can train you later! That may work for an ticket agent but a pilot...?
Perhaps you object to my use of the term "experience", I am referring only to the type of equipment that more closely parallels what WJ operates. Not a reference to a number in your logbook. So please, don't think it's an attack. It's actually a very cagey move by WJ, hire guys who think they've died and gone to heaven: they won't leave! Hire an ex-heavy pilot, and they could definitely leave when (or if!) the market moves upwards.
Let me expand my statement to say, the single most experienced pilot GROUP that WestJet has drawn on...every single ex-C3 pilot came with international experience on a heavy jet. The same can not be said of any other GROUP, not even Jazz who operates a mixed fleet, certainly not the multitude of King Air, Metro, Twin Otter, Beech 1900 operators, etc etc. Certainly there is a lot of experience from all sides, corporate guys, heck there's even the token ex-CX and ex-AC (to each their own), but I stand by what I said: the only other airline group that operated equipment similar or more capable than WJ, that WJ has/was able to hire from en masse, was C3. (It helped they were all unemployed.) And who has the most represented group of people who have left. Simple facts. I would also submit that in the most recent years, who WJ hires has been more due to the "internal referral" effect than their love of a particular company. ie one CMA guy gets on, one Borek, whatever, then two and so on. As WestJet says, they hire for personality, they can train you later! That may work for an ticket agent but a pilot...?
Perhaps you object to my use of the term "experience", I am referring only to the type of equipment that more closely parallels what WJ operates. Not a reference to a number in your logbook. So please, don't think it's an attack. It's actually a very cagey move by WJ, hire guys who think they've died and gone to heaven: they won't leave! Hire an ex-heavy pilot, and they could definitely leave when (or if!) the market moves upwards.
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Canus Chinookus
- Rank 7
- Posts: 707
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:30 pm
Ok I'm back from the hospital 
by 'most experienced group' you meant in international flying on a heavy jet?
Westjet doesn't operate heavies, so that doesn't mean much to me. I could argue that the Air Canada guys, Cathay guys, First Air, the list could go on, are the most experienced. The C3 guys are no more special than anyone else, i'm sorry to say.
Not to be nitpicky, but your generalization doesn't wash with me. The C3 guys aren't Gods any more than any of us other are Gods flying an airplane. (attempt at humor)
by 'most experienced group' you meant in international flying on a heavy jet?
Westjet doesn't operate heavies, so that doesn't mean much to me. I could argue that the Air Canada guys, Cathay guys, First Air, the list could go on, are the most experienced. The C3 guys are no more special than anyone else, i'm sorry to say.
Not to be nitpicky, but your generalization doesn't wash with me. The C3 guys aren't Gods any more than any of us other are Gods flying an airplane.
(attempt at humor)-
complexintentions
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2186
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
- Location: of my pants is unknown.
If there are any where NEAR as many AC/CX/First Air/etc combined, as there were C3 before the 50-odd left, I would be surprised.
Semantics anyway. I never said they were gods. I'm still curious why the hugely disproportionate number of those who have left were ex-C3. But I will ask on the WestJet foum, not this one.
btw, the only ones who could mistake pilots for gods are, suprisingly, pilots... no one else gives a rats, alas...
cheers,
CI
Semantics anyway. I never said they were gods. I'm still curious why the hugely disproportionate number of those who have left were ex-C3. But I will ask on the WestJet foum, not this one.
btw, the only ones who could mistake pilots for gods are, suprisingly, pilots...
no one else gives a rats, alas...cheers,
CI
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Hun IN the SUN
- Rank 3
- Posts: 158
- Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 1:15 pm
- Location: In a HOLD
On the day that AC went into bankrupt protection, I saw the westjet employees all dancing together and rejoicing. Whats up with that shit. Before any of this i always wanted to see westjet to do well. But after that crap and there computer hacking fraud case, I feel very differently about that company. I wish jetsgo and canjet success. what comes around goes around, and its playin out.
