I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.


Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775.

Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.


Unfortunately Foggy, the monologue you posted is a prime example of not only the above, but also the usual obscuring of the issues at hand. By posting it, I would assume you agree with him? Well I don't, not for one minute as he only displays disdain for the Canadian public by diverting the conversation from the issue at hand to one of misguided patriotism.

I take particular offense to this:
The scenario is that our soldiers -- who have been in that hellish, brutish part of the world, where NONE of you want to spend one hour, never mind one year, two years, three years, how about the last eight years
"Hellish?" "Brutish?" "None of [us]?" Really, has he spent any time there, time with the people of Afghanistan learning about their culture and history, not to mention their current set of circumstances? I don't think so. I can assure you it is not "hellish" or "brutish," while it may be many things, it is not those. Perhaps for someone who is so quick with judgments of those who ask questions of our Government, he should start giving some respect to those who's country we occupy? Not likely however as he only views this issue as a soapbox through which he can further his own (and his paper's) agenda. I'm sure he cares not one bit about the regular Afghan, nor the moral and ethical implications of our involvement there.

James Hayward Arnal loved this country more than any of you quiche-eating, latte-loving, armchair quarterbacks.
This is the best he's got?

It's almost pathetic in its fallacious attacks on people he seems to despise while forgetting that he is precisely that - an "armchair quarterback." Does it really matter what a person who exercises their democratic rights to question the government drinks or eats? I think not, it is little more than vitriol designed to obscure the issues.

As I posted prior, this is NOT about our soldiers (as Colvin took great pains to establish in his testimony), it is not about a lack of patriotism, in fact it about quite the opposite. The national character assassination he speaks of is caused not by people who question our policies, or question the government for hiding facts, but by people like him who deflect the public attention from the real and pertinent issues at hand, motivated by little more than partisan politics. I remain disgusted, but this is standard fare for the National Post.

If you are a truly patriotic Canadian you will join with people from all spectrum's who are questioning the government on this issue among others. It demands questioning right, wrong, or otherwise. Once again, this is about process.

Trotting out the individual sufferings of soldiers or their lack of pillows does nothing to further their cause or aid them in their operations over there, it is instead insulting not only to them and their memories, but to the rest of us and our intelligence.

stl
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by 2R »

Colvin is just an office wallah :wink:
They should have a court of inquiry in Afghanistan in the line of fire,send what is left of the Liberals who sent the troops to that war without end and they can be used as human shields while colvin can call his witnesses :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Last man standing rules apply :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by Siddley Hawker »

Does anyone really think that once Colvin's accusations became the object of scrutiny by a Parliamentary committee in Ottawa it would not become a lesson in partisan politics? :(
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by Rockie »

I cannot improve on STL's spot on post just above this one. But I will add that only unimaginative people could mistake our revulsion with torture and the government's cover up of the facts as criticism against our military. In a democracy the military is subordinate to, and compelled to comply with the legal authority of the civilian government in power. It is they who bear the ultimate responsiblity for what our nation's military forces do.

Our government's attempts to avoid that responsibility in this sorry affair makes me sick to my stomach, because we as Canadians will have to bear the shame long after those scumbags are gone.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by The Old Fogducker »

Well then, if it makes you sick ... puke away boys.

Our responsibility ends when we had 'em over to the people remaking the movie "Midnight Express."

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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

The Old Fogducker wrote: Our responsibility ends when we had 'em over to the people remaking the movie "Midnight Express."

Actually it doesn't Foggy, legally, morally, or ethically. Even the Gov't agrees on that one....

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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by 2R »

I thought you guys where smarter.Too smart to believe unproven unsubstantiated hearsay from a warzone.Oh well i am wrong again.
Enemy propaganda.
Good job that the enemy does not broadcast like Tokyo Rose or Lord Haw Haw or you guys would be surrendering to a bunch of taliban hearsay.Our soldiers are innocent.Their generals called bullshit on this guy and you still want to believe the unproven unsubstantiated hearsay from an office wallah .Rumours from dispatches.Unproven taliban complaints
I will give the benefit of the doubt to our troops until i see imperical evidence of any wrongdoing.I have more faith in our troops behaviour than the behaviour of a person who would offer unproven unsubstantiated enemy rumours as fact .
Rumours from a narco state run by drug warlords hiding behind a pious pretense of religious zeal.I am too stupid to believe the taliban lies.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

2R wrote:I thought you guys where smarter.Too smart to believe unproven unsubstantiated hearsay from a warzone.Oh well i am wrong again.
Enemy propaganda.
Good job that the enemy does not broadcast like Tokyo Rose or Lord Haw Haw or you guys would be surrendering to a bunch of taliban hearsay.Our soldiers are innocent.Their generals called bullshit on this guy and you still want to believe the unproven unsubstantiated hearsay from an office wallah .Rumours from dispatches.Unproven taliban complaints
I will give the benefit of the doubt to our troops until i see imperical evidence of any wrongdoing.I have more faith in our troops behaviour than the behaviour of a person who would offer unproven unsubstantiated enemy rumours as fact .
Rumours from a narco state run by drug warlords hiding behind a pious pretense of religious zeal.I am too stupid to believe the taliban lies.

2R,

If you have something valuable to contribute I'm more than willing to continue engaging in this discussion, but if you want to post things like that - which I can't even bring myself to respond to - then this is my last post addressing your comments.

It's all Taliban lies... right, you seem to miss the entire point as well.

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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by 2R »

The best debates are often where both sides are right.
I too would be disgusted at the allegations of torture where true.But they are not proven.
I have not seen ,nor has any hard evidence been presented .To allow the enemy to go on a fishing expedition through the intelligence files in HQ on the hearsay allegations would cost the lives of those in the field and would prolong the deployment.
Rumours are not enough ,consider the sources that where used in these allegations.
Would you buy a used car from such people ?
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by JakeYYZ »

This hand wringing over alleged torture of captured terrorists has to be some of the most "culturalist" bigotry I've ever heard! These people are claiming that the Afghan culture isn't the equal of our own! Yet the same people are almost always cultural relativists, especially when members of a culture have immigrated to Canada.

Let me get this straight; a Muslim man from, say, Afghanistan, who honour kills his daughter while residing in Toronto is more morally correct than a soldier who turns an enemy combatant over to the legal authorities of his Country, because said EC MIGHT be mistreated by members of the same culture and religion as the father in Toronto.

I'm confused. Insensitive and confused.

Hope your eyeballs are not bleeding now from reading this, STL.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by Siddley Hawker »

I wonder how they morphed from suspected Taliban fighters to taxi drivers and farmers. If this goes on much longer, they may become candidates for beatification.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by lilfssister »

How many of the people posting on this thread have been in Afghanistan in the past year or two? I know stl has been there, but the rest of you?
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

JakeYYZ wrote:T

I'm confused. Insensitive and confused.

Hope your eyeballs are not bleeding now from reading this, STL.


Indeed, you are very confused, insensitive or not. And no, my eyeballs are not bleeding, but my neck is starting to hurt from all the head shaking.

Unfortunately in your confusion, much like a number of the other people posting here and writing myopic OpEd pieces in the daily newspapers, you are combining issues - either purposely like the Gov't and much of the media, or not - which does nothing but obscure the question at hand. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in so far as you're not intentional in your confusion, hence my continued participation in this thread.

For the hundredth time, this is not about the allegations so much as the Governments response to the allegations and the lack of due process - this is something EVERY Canadian needs to be concerned about, and it goes right back through the last Liberal Gov't as well.


stl
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by BoostedNihilist »

They expect to be unaccountable for their actions and they are.. so why should we be surprised. The lack of due process is a cancer which has effected every facet of government be it local to federal. Even when the process is followed it appears dubious and skewed. I believe it is this basic disregard for societies part in the political process which brings us here to complain. If you are on the right or the left I believe there is a point we can all agree on, we want more accountability.

We all come here banging our heads against the wall about this outrage, or this violation, or how about a manipulation or five but it all comes down to the fact that nobody is listening and therefore nobody is being held accountable. Why would people give a shit.. giving a shit isn't enough. Talking about giving a shit isn't enough. We should all have learned from our 'retired elders' that even doing a shit isn't even enough to get any one of these fuckers to play straight. Rant off but I'm still fuming about the general disregard of the populace.. grrrr

There seems to be things afoot these days. What is going on.. who really knows? but I do not feel particularly consulted about the direction I feel society should take... do any of you feel that anybody gives a shit about what you say? So many assholes and just two ears, the middle stuffed with shit. Even if you know, you are confused, or crazy.

In the end we all share our outrage, and on paper, we are probably right about half the time.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by Widow »

Ottawa leaves Colvin high and dry
Colleagues stay silent as whistle-blower is publicly humiliated by elected officials
James Ron
Associate Professor at Carleton University's Norman Paterson School of International Affairs Published On Fri Dec 4 2009

As the Afghan detainee debate continues, I look around Ottawa with increasing concern. Who among my acquaintances was involved? Who raised tough questions in 2006, and who remained silent? It's hard to know, because so few bureaucrats in this town are talking publicly.

I've seen this movie before. Sixteen years ago, I left Israel because it was too hard to live among friends who were politically supportive of peace but personally unwilling to blow whistles.

I left, seeking a country that sent its troops into battle with respect for international law and the determination to expose its own wrongdoings when required.

Until two weeks ago, I thought I'd found that Shangri-La right here.

I'd been searching for a Canada-style haven ever since the 1980s, when a UN peacekeeper watched my military colleagues and I do something unjust.

On the day in question, my platoon had swept into a Lebanese village, seeking information about Israeli soldiers captured nearby. A colleague and I were told to accompany an intelligence officer and two Lebanese informants on a routine arrest, the kind of operation Canadian forces must do every day in Kandahar.

We pushed into someone's home, pulled a man out, and walked round the back of his building. The intelligence team blindfolded his eyes, pushed him to his knees, and placed a gun to his head, demanding answers to questions posed in Arabic.

Perhaps they were bluffing, but it seemed to me that they were about to shoot him dead. I had received no training in the Geneva Conventions, but it didn't take much legal sophistication to realize something was badly amiss. Prisoners, I knew, shouldn't be shot in the head, and even mock executions were a serious form of abuse.

Despite this knowledge, however, I did absolutely nothing. I was 19 years old, and the notion of speaking out publicly was very much beyond the pale.

Suddenly, a blue-helmeted UN officer appeared, and under his unwavering gaze, the incident quickly petered out. The intelligence team disappeared into the morning fog, and my colleague and I walked back to our unit. We never spoke of the incident again.

Ever since that day, I've wanted to live in the kind of country that sends UN peacekeepers abroad to make the world a better place, rather than one that sends its soldiers to fight in dirty wars.

Until last week, I was sure Canada was what I was searching for. As best I could tell, it was a peacekeeping country par excellence, the kind of nation where people did good things abroad and blew whistles on their own misdeeds without fear.

Many immigrants from other war-torn countries probably feel similarly, as well as many of this country's native-born citizens.

Even when Canadian officials embraced war in Kandahar, I believed things would not go too badly awry. Counter-insurgencies were always ugly, but I believed Canadian soldiers and bureaucrats would be different. They would respect the spirit of international law, and would never subject prisoners to real or mock executions. Nor, I believed, would they ever let others do their dirty work for them, the way Israel so often did with its Lebanese militias.

Yet if Richard Colvin's allegations are true, Canada did precisely that in 2006. Hundreds of Afghan men were transferred by Canadian forces to local allies, and at least some of these were brutally tortured. Many, moreover, may have been entirely innocent of any crime, mistakenly swept up in the confusion.

Here in Ottawa, at least 75 people received copies of those reports, and others must have heard word of their content. Many must be dedicated civil servants, keen to serve with honour. Yet very few have publicly admitted reading Colvin's early memos, and even fewer have said they shared his concerns.

And yet, Colvin was promoted to a prestigious position in Washington shortly after his Afghan tour, indicating that his colleagues and superiors must have thought quite highly of his work.

Most troublingly, Colvin's colleagues kept silent two weeks ago even as he was publicly humiliated by elected officials. In the days following his testimony, not one of his colleagues dialled up a journalist and said, "Hi, my name is X, and I read those reports in 2006. Colvin's a respected guy; many of us took him seriously."

The silence of Ottawa's bureaucrats is fuelled by different fears. Some may be loath to speak out because they invested a lifetime in the civil service and fear that whistle-blowers will face boring jobs and reduced pay. Others may fear for their jobs and pensions, and with mortgages or retirement at stake, these worries are real.

Still others may be cowed by the contempt heaped by politicians on Colvin, or be unsure of their rights under Canadian law.

In fact, some of those 75 may have spoken up internally in 2006, adding their voices to Colvin's through internal channels. It may not be their style to speak out, and they thus remain publicly silent, praying that Colvin somehow survives.

Despite all these good reasons, I still find the silence in Ottawa deafening. Soldiers do know right from wrong, and so do policy bureaucrats. When mistakes are made and bad things ensue, everyone involved has a duty to step up, speak out, and take responsibility.

In Israel today, conditions for security whistle-blowers are not nearly as dire as they once were. After the recent war in the Gaza Strip, for example, many soldiers spoke out publicly, telling their countrymen that severe abuses had been done in their name. In today's Israel, the mainstream media are often freer and more self critical than anything available in Canada.

In the U.S., moreover, the use of allied intelligence agencies to conduct brutal interrogations has been discredited and exposed for what it is: abuse by proxy.

Here in Canada, however, the quality of moral debate is still quite immature. Whistle-blowing on issues of national security is still not on, and senior soldiers continue to monopolize the debate, telling those who do not fight that they cannot understand the realities of war. Arguments against torture, moreover, are hampered by tacit disdain for international law, coupled with contempt for the rights of Afghans suspected of being pro-Taliban.

Canada is not the U.S. or Israel. Not yet. But as the debate over Colvin's allegations continues, I fear that the first steps on a slippery slope are in the process of being made.

Canada may never be Shangri-La, and perhaps no such place even exists. Still, the world needs role models to emulate, and until two weeks ago, this country was one of the best ones around.

Just now, however, the silence of the bureaucrats is all I can hear, and that scares me no end.

James Ron has worked as a consultant to Human Rights Watch, was a Canada Research Chair at McGill University, and taught as a faculty member at Johns Hopkins University in the United States.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

Widow wrote: As the Afghan detainee debate continues, I look around Ottawa with increasing concern. Who among my acquaintances was involved? Who raised tough questions in 2006, and who remained silent? It's hard to know, because so few bureaucrats in this town are talking publicly.

I've seen this movie before. Sixteen years ago, I left Israel because it was too hard to live among friends who were politically supportive of peace but personally unwilling to blow whistles.



Despite all these good reasons, I still find the silence in Ottawa deafening. Soldiers do know right from wrong, and so do policy bureaucrats. When mistakes are made and bad things ensue, everyone involved has a duty to step up, speak out, and take responsibility.


I left, seeking a country that sent its troops into battle with respect for international law and the determination to expose its own wrongdoings when required.

Until two weeks ago, I thought I'd found that Shangri-La right here.


Canada is not the U.S. or Israel. Not yet. But as the debate over Colvin's allegations continues, I fear that the first steps on a slippery slope are in the process of being made.

Canada may never be Shangri-La, and perhaps no such place even exists. Still, the world needs role models to emulate, and until two weeks ago, this country was one of the best ones around.

Just now, however, the silence of the bureaucrats is all I can hear, and that scares me no end.

That pretty much sums it up. You gotta love people, don't you? It's the same mentality that plagues the aviation industry.

stl
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by Spokes »

lilfssister wrote:How many of the people posting on this thread have been in Afghanistan in the past year or two? I know stl has been there, but the rest of you?
does this mean that stl is the only authority to speak on the subject? Is stl's word the final one?

I have over 23 years of military service. I do not know anyone that would knowingly turn over soemone for toture, nor, of course, would I do so myself. Having said all that, I am sure that my word is not the final one on the subject.

The 'I have been there- you have not' is a form of the argument from authority. A logical falacy. It is the facts that should guide a debate, not the presenter.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

Spokes wrote:
lilfssister wrote:How many of the people posting on this thread have been in Afghanistan in the past year or two? I know stl has been there, but the rest of you?
does this mean that stl is the only authority to speak on the subject? Is stl's word the final one?

Not at all, in fact quite the opposite - which is what I've been arguing for quite some time actually. I appreciate Lil's support, but that is not the message at all.

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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by JakeYYZ »

Third hand reports of maybe something that someone thought they heard....
What is the order of things? I believe a common’s committee investigates and makes a recommendation as to whether a public inquiry might be in order. At least, that is how I understand procedure. What’s your beef? You think it unfair that his testimony/accusations are rejected by the government?
His career, as a civil servant, is effectively over..done. Can you think of a reason why he might embark on this kamikaze mission? I can.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

The proverbial tip of the berg? Either way, START THE INQUIRY ALREADY, that's all anyone is asking. Enough of the charades and start treating the public like people with a vested interest - which we all are.

These are the people representing Canada, between McKay and Harper, I can't figure out which one is more slimy. What ever happened to the best and brightest leading nations?

stl



By Murray Brewster, The Canadian Press
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OTTAWA - The country's top military commander reversed himself Wednesday and put rising pressure on the government with the explosive assertion that a beaten and bloodied Canadian-captured prisoner was indeed abused by Afghan authorities prior to 2007.

The stunning about-face by Gen. Walt Natynczyk - who had earlier insisted Canadians had not detained the suspected Taliban in June 2006 - undercuts one of the Conservative government's key lines of defence in the widening controversy over the handling of insurgent prisoners.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay has categorically insisted "there is not a single, proven allegation" of abuse prior to 2007.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper brushed aside the revelation by saying it "confirms what we have been saying all along."

But, in a recalibration of the government's position, Harper told the House of Commons that the military acted when they uncovered "substantive evidence" of abuse. Previously, Harper and MacKay have said there was no such evidence.

Natynczyk's revelation also raises questions about whether Canada violated international law by continuing to transfer prisoners to Afghan custody after it had evidence of abuse.

The general skirted questions about any potential political fallout and said he's ordered a board of inquiry investigation into why neither he, nor his predecessor, Rick Hillier, saw a platoon commander's report which detailed the prisoner's capture.

A University of Ottawa law professor says the report represents "incontrovertible proof" that Canada should have stopped transfers right away and that continuing the practice means Ottawa has violated international law.

Knowingly transferring a prisoner into a situation where they may face a risk of torture is a violation of the Geneva Conventions and a war crime.

Errol Mendes says the problem was compounded by the fact that Canadians were not monitoring the fate of prisoners between 2006 and 2007. That lapse cannot be laid at the feet of the Canadian military and the government must shoulder the blame, he said.

"If these guys had no clear instructions, and it's clear they didn't, they were almost making it up on the fly which shows you the civilian command was putting them into an untenable position," Mendes said.

MacKay, former defence minister Gordon O'Connor and Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon appeared before a special Commons committee later Wednesday and faced pointed accusations by opposition MPs.

Liberal defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh said the government didn't need specific allegations of torture to act if there was an already overwhelming number of reports warning of the abuse, including memos from diplomat Richard Colvin.

"International law is very clear; you need circumstantial evidence, you don't need actual knowledge," Dosanjh said.

"Sir, you continued to transfer prisoners to torture in the name of Canada. It's important you understand, you don't need specific allegations."

MacKay bristled at the accusation.

"That is an outrageous, false, inflammatory and insulting allegation....from somebody who's served in government and should know better," he shot back.

"No one ever turned a blind eye. Let me be clear, the government of Canada has never been complicit in torture or any violation of international law by willfully allowing prisoners taken by the Canadian forces to be exposed to abuse."

The news from Natynczyk inflamed the daily question period in the Commons and prompted demands from all three opposition parties for MacKay to be fired.

"Resign, resign!" Liberals, New Democrats and Bloc MPs chanted at MacKay during a raucous session.

The catcalls were ignored by MacKay, who continued to insist he had no prior knowledge of allegations of abuse including the one now being confirmed by the military.

"I rely on information and advice from senior officials, from the military," he told the Commons. "This issue came to my attention this morning after I spoke with Gen. Natynczyk. As I've said before, when we receive information, we act on the information."

NDP leader Jack Layton was incredulous.

"Oh, will they stop already," Layton said. "The prime minister and the defence minister can't spin their way out of this one.

"The chief of defence staff just contradicted everything they've been saying in this House time and time again. The minister claimed there was no proof of abuse. He was wrong and he should take responsibility and resign, and if not, the prime minister should demand it today."

Natynczyk called a news conference Wednesday to correct information he gave a day earlier about a detainee who was beaten by Afghan police. The general told the House of Commons defence committee Tuesday that Canadian troops had questioned the man in June 2006, but never detained him.

But Natynczyk now says Canadian troops did indeed capture the man and hand over to Afghan police before taking him back into custody when they saw him being beaten.

The military chief said he was provided with the correct information Wednesday at 9 a.m. after staff reviewed the record. He has ordered an investigation to determine why the information did not get to him or Rick Hillier who served before him.

"I regret that I only have this information at this point," Natynczyk said. "I looked at my watch at 9:06 this morning when I received this report and I thought, 'My goodness, why have I not had this information? Why didn't we have this information back in 2006 and 2007."

Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff said the military investigation won't get to the bottom of happened and only a public inquiry will shed light on the political accountability.

"The Forces have behaved impeccably in this case ... the issue is why the government didn't," he said.

The government has ruled out a public inquiry.

O'Connor, who was briefed daily on combat operations in 2006-07 told the parliamentary committee he "doesn't recall" being told about any cases of prisoner abuse and dismissed opposition claims of a cover-up.

"In effect what they're saying is that the government and Canadian Forces are in some form of collusion on abuse and torture," O'Connor told the committee. "For this fallacy to occur, up to eight levels of the army would have to be involved through three or four rotations. This involves thousands of people. This would be the cover-ups of all cover-ups and as premise goes beyond common sense."
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

Taken from a Field Report.

Nobody all that interested in this? Perhaps the implications are a bit far reaching for everyone - including me - to wrap their heads around?

War is war, and believe me being there to see first hand last year was an eye opening experience, but the Government sets policy, and if (which is increasingly looking to be the case) they knew about these abuses, then we have a problem. I won't bother getting into my thoughts on the whole concept of "moral authority," but suffice it to say, if that is what we're going for, actions like covering up issues like this and belittling the one person to stand up and call foul is no way to keep it.

Unfortunately some seem to think this is a fabrication of the media "to sell papers," but I think if you were looking at the media like I do - from a publishing standpoint - you'd see that once again the media has dropped the ball on its duty to inform the public. This story is not new, it just went un-reported for a good long time. The Americans I was with last year spoke openly of being careful about prisoner exchanges, the point is, people knew, lots of people, and for a while.

stl

Field report transcript

20:00 14 Jun 06 [location redacted]

Stopped along Rte [redacted] and held up a vehicle that was proceeding south down the route. Stopped and searched the three individuals in the white van and got a very weird feel from one of them.

Had the terp [interpreter] come and he [unclear] that the individual was in all probability Enemy (Taliban) due to his accent and his false story of being from Kandahar City. So I had him lie down on his stomach, then conducted a detailed search. (I had him empty his pockets prior to this) catalogued all his items and then took down his particulars (name [redacted] from Uruzgan).

We then photographed the individual prior to handing him over, to ensure that if the ANP did assault him, as has happened in the past, we would have a visual record of his condition.


The ANP Section Comd, [redacted] then arrived, asked the suspect a couple of questions and concurred with our assessment that the individual was enemy.

We in good faith handed the PUC [person under control] over to them so that he could be transported to the Zhari District Center [Forward Operating Base Wilson] where [watchdog] (a radio call-sign for military police) could get him. That was the last I saw him. [redacted] is one of [redacted] men.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by North Shore »

I'll give Peter Mackay until Christmas in his job. Then it'll be time for a 'cabinet shuffle' ...
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by sky's the limit »

North Shore wrote:I'll give Peter Mackay until Christmas in his job. Then it'll be time for a 'cabinet shuffle' ...

Perhaps sooner if he keeps this up.... Page one out of Bush's handbook. It's about time somebody let's these idiots in on the fact they aren't acting in a movie, this is serious, and needs to be dealt with as such - and here I was thinking this was a minority gov't??? The neo-cons have migrated north. Who knew?

stl



Opposition passes rare motion ordering Tories to release Afghanistan documents



By The Canadian Press
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OTTAWA - The Conservative government indicated Friday it was prepared to ignore a parliamentary vote calling on it to release uncensored information on enemy prisoners.

"We follow the law and the law is very clear that if there are elements of security, elements that could affect the security of our soldiers or civilians, then information will be protected," said Trade Minister Stockwell Day.

Day, who chairs the federal cabinet committee on Afghanistan, said the government was "following the spirit and letter of the law," and that if opposition MPs don't like it, they can appeal.

Day's remarks set the stage for another opposition vote that could find the government in contempt. That could spark another battle on the limits of parliamentary privilege when the Commons resumes sitting in late January.


The contentious issue of Afghanistan prisoner abuse and the Tory government's propensity to withhold documents on the issue won't be going away any time soon, even though Parliament is on vacation.

The special Commons committee on Afghanistan is planning to resume hearings early next month, well before the House returns.

Before taking their leave on Thursday, opposition parties passed a rare motion ordering the minority government to release the confidential records on enemy prisoners.

The Liberals, NDP and Bloc Quebecois passed the Commons motion 145-143 demanding the release of thousands of uncensored documents.

If the Conservatives ignore the order, as Day says they will, the opposition could vote to find the government in contempt, setting the stage for further battle.


The issue of Afghanistan prisoner abuse has been at the fore since diplomat Richard Colvin testified at a Commons committee Nov. 18 that all detainees captured by Canadian soldiers were likely tortured after they were transferred to Afghan authorities in 2006 and 2007.

The Conservatives have resisted demands to release uncensored reports on detainees.

The Harper government has repeatedly attacked Colvin's credibility. About 95 former ambassadors have signed a letter of protest over Colvin's treatment.


Defence Minister Peter MacKay has said divulging confidential records "could be helpful to the enemy" and would jeopardize Canadian troops.

The opposition motion cites the "undisputed privileges of Parliament under Canada's constitution, including the absolute power to require the government to produce uncensored documents when requested."

Justice officials contend in a government-circulated letter that politicians must respect legislated limits to what can be released under privacy and security laws. But Commons law clerk Robert Walsh says MPs in parliamentary committees have the right to read uncensored documents.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by ragbagflyer »

If you all weren't outraged at the governments response to this mess before today, you better be now. They just threw up the biggest middle finger ever seen at everyone of US.

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2009/1 ... ments.html
Lives at risk if Afghan info released: Day
Last Updated: Friday, December 11, 2009 | 6:46 PM ET Comments322Recommend71CBC News
An inmate holds a child in the background as she walks in the yard at a prison in Kabul, Afghanistan. Former diplomat Richard Colvin says captives were turned over to Afghan prison officials by the Canadian military in 2006-07, despite his warnings that the detainees would be tortured. (David Guttenfelder/Associated Press)
Certain information related to the Afghan detainee controversy has to be kept secret to protect lives, International Trade Minister Stockwell Day said Friday in defence of his government's decision not to release critical documents.

Day said government officials routinely make decisions on what information needs to kept classified. It would be "naive" to release info about high-security missions, including details on battlefield captures or the discovery of militants' hideouts, he said.

"There are details of which, if they were to be publicly made available, would only help the enemy. So the law is very clear that there are situations where there could be security issues where certain elements of an operation must be protected."

Trade Minister Stockwell Day says certain information related to the Afghan detainee affair has to be kept secret to protect lives. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)
Day's comments come a day after the Liberals, NDP and Bloc Québécois passed a motion in the House of Commons demanding the release of thousands of documents in uncensored form, including reports written by Richard Colvin.

Colvin, a former senior diplomat with Canada's mission in Afghanistan who's now based in Washington, says captives were turned over to Afghan prison officials by the Canadian military in 2006-07, despite his warnings to the Canadian government that they would be tortured.

Reporters questioned Day as to how Colvin's diplomatic reports could include military mission-related details.

Day repeated that any elements that could affect the security of Canadian soldiers or civilians would be protected.

The government has repeatedly said it is legally barred, by terms of the Canada Evidence Act, from releasing sensitive information about the Afghan mission. In a letter made public Tuesday, parliamentary law clerk Robert Walsh, Parliament's expert on the laws that affect it, dismissed that reason as "absurd."
Day said if opposition members looking at redacted documents want the censored details, there is a process for them to appeal.

Meanwhile, Peter Tinsley, the departing chair of the Military Police Complaints Commission has taken the Harper government to task for refusing to renew his term in the middle of the Afghan detainee controversy.

It is unprecedented for the government not to renew his appointment as head of the military oversight body, Tinsley said. His last day on the job was Friday.

His departure will effectively halt the commission's ability to continue the public hearings — and send a "chill" through other quasi-judicial bodies whose heads are appointed by the government.
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Re: I am absolutely disgusted with our Gov't - the Colvin Case

Post by Rockie »

In true political fashion, the government is trying their best to deny knowledge and blame civil servants or military people just doing their job. But that is all starting to fall apart on them now, so the necessary scapegoat is quickly moving into the politico level. If there were a junior minister willing (for future considerations), or unwilling (tough shit) to take the fall then we would certainly see that happening. But there isn't a junior minister to my knowledge. And since Harper is as invulnerable as a person can get McKay's days are numbered. Tough shit.
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