Top KHL Squad killed in Russian plane crash.

[MUSKEG]

It seems Aurora you have hung your hat on standard weights. As mentioned that will hold little water. If or shall we say when you stand before a tribunal you will be asked that very question. Did you know? And as you point out here over and over again you know. Then guess what the insurance company will do. There is not enough insurance buyable to cover a senario like that. But boy you sure make the paperwork look good.

[North Shore]

Ok, to brag, slag or justify flying overweight, go here: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76333

This thread is about 42 poor buggers killed in an (avoidable?) plane crash, and their grieving families.

Thanks.

[Chaxterium]

This is interesting. Apparently the Russian authorities have released some information about the crash. Note that this is from Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth.

The Technical Commission of the MAK released further information on September 12, 2011. Among the findings:

-the engines continued working until the crash,

-the weather was ruled out as a cause of the crash,

-the crew carried out a check of all controls of the aircraft, including the elevator, the helm in normal mode,

-take-off weight was less than the maximum allowable for take-off,

-the plane had 14 tonnes of fuel on board, of which 8 tonnes was from the airport in Yaroslavl,
before take-off, the stabilizer and flaps were set to take-off position.


On September 14, 2011, it was revealed that the parking brake of the plane was on during the take-off, which significantly slowed the plane down and prevented it from accelerating properly.

Eek.

Sincere condolences to all the families affected.

[cdnpilot77]

This is interesting. Apparently the Russian authorities have released some information about the crash. Note that this is from Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth.

The Technical Commission of the MAK released further information on September 12, 2011. Among the findings:

-the engines continued working until the crash,

-the weather was ruled out as a cause of the crash,

-the crew carried out a check of all controls of the aircraft, including the elevator, the helm in normal mode,

-take-off weight was less than the maximum allowable for take-off,

-the plane had 14 tonnes of fuel on board, of which 8 tonnes was from the airport in Yaroslavl,
before take-off, the stabilizer and flaps were set to take-off position.


On September 14, 2011, it was revealed that the parking brake of the plane was on during the take-off, which significantly slowed the plane down and prevented it from accelerating properly.

Eek.

Sincere condolences to all the families affected.

Wow, if true!!

[Mig29]

Not so anymore, apparently that has been rules out of question based on latest reports.


Officials rule out 'emergency brake' theory of Yak-42 crash


Published: 14 September, 2011, 21:48


Reports that an engaged hand brake could have caused the plane carrying Russian hockey team Lokomotiv to crash have no evidentiary support, according to both aviation officials and experts.

Officials from the Transportation Ministry and the Russian Aviation Agency have dismissed media reports that pilots of the ill-fated Yak-42 that crashed outside Yaroslavl could have tried to take off with the parking brake still engaged.

“There are all these versions appearing in the media – that the brake was on, that one pilot was trying to take off while the other was trying to stop the plane, and so on,” said Aleksand Neradko, head of Russia’s Aviation Agency. “They’re all illogical, and unrealistic.”

Investigators looking into the crash have lent support to this statement, saying that no tire tread marks have been found on the runway – and they would have been there had the brake been engaged.

Neradko’s statement was also supported by the former CEO of the national carrier, Aeroflot, who now serves as deputy transportation minister. Valery Okulov told journalists that many of the possible causes of the crash reported in the media are simply inapplicable to this tragedy.

Earlier, a Russian daily, quoting its own sources, reported that pilots may have forgotten to disengage the parking brake before attempting to take off.

The Interstate Aviation Committee is still extracting information from the flight recorders recovered at the crash site. According to members of the investigating team, the recorders – and the material on them – are in very good condition, and the case is expected to be closed soon.

Many possible causes of the crash have already been ruled out – such as poor fuel quality and engine failure. The two main theories still being considered are human error and technical malfunction.

The Yakovlev Yak-42 airliner crashed on the banks of the Volga River on September 7, taking the lives of 44 people. One survivor remains in the hospital, with doctors fighting for his life.

http://rt.com/news/plane-crash-cause-pilots-569/

[Chaxterium]

Well I guess that's what I get for quoting wikipedia!

Thanks for the update Mig. This is getting very interesting.

Cheers,
Chax

[Mig29]

Not a problem - after all it's just a discussion.

Cheers man!

[FL_CH]

"MAK", the Russian aviation incident investigation agency, has released an update.
Source (Russian):
http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigation ... 42434.html

Findings:
- All engines were operating normally
- Flight Control Check was performed twice before takeoff
- Flaps were set for takeoff
- Weight and Balance of the aircraft were within certified limits
- Takeoff roll was initiated approximately 300m from threshold (total runway length 3000m)
- Max Continuous Thrust was used for takeoff

Sequence of events:
- The aircraft accelerated normally to 165 km/hr (~ 86 KTS)
- The PF initiated rotation at 185 km/hr (~ 100 KTS)
- The aircraft failed to pitch up
- 6 seconds after, full takeoff power was applied
- The aircraft's acceleration rate has decreased even after applying full power
- The horizontal stabilizer was commanded to 9.5 degree nose-up position from the initial 8.7
- More nose-up control input was made by the PF, but the aircraft failed to rotate until 400 m beyond the end of the runway
- After lifting off, the aircraft struck an antenna
- Aircraft's pitch increased rapidly to 20 degrees nose-up over 2-3 seconds
- The maximum altitude reached was approximately 5-6 meters
- Aircraft banked to the left and hit the ground
- The maximum speed reached was 230 km/hr (~ 124 KTS)

The suspected cause is residual brake pressure in the brake system, which would not only have increased the takeoff roll, but also created additional nose-down momentum.

[pika]

residual brake pressure in the brake system

Is this a nice way to say the park brake was set?

If "residual brake pressure" prevents take off how does one taxi with the same condition?

[Chaxterium]

Is this a nice way to say the park brake was set?

I don't think so because it states that the aircraft accelerated normally to 86kts. And also they've explicitly stated that the parking brake was not on.

[mbav8r]

Residual pressure could be a faulty release vavle after the parking brake was released. A blocked valve would hold some pressure. In theory it could accellerate normal to 86 kts with some pressure in the system, as the rotors get hot they expand and then the brake pucks still with same pressure would start to grab more, I'd say a good working theory.

[pika]

Now we have the real meaning of "residual brake pressure".

Officials have not yet announced the reason for the crash, but have said that all the plane's systems were functioning normally until impact.

Russian media reports said the investigators believe that one of the pilots accidentally activated the wheel brakes during takeoff, while another pilot pulled the plane up to a critical angle in a desperate attempt to get it into the air. The sharp maneuver caused the jet to crash immediately after takeoff.

[linecrew]

Russian media reports said the investigators believe that one of the pilots accidentally activated the wheel brakes during takeoff, while another pilot pulled the plane up to a critical angle in a desperate attempt to get it into the air. The sharp maneuver caused the jet to crash immediately after takeoff.

Wait...what?

[Mig29]

Probe:Hockey team crash caused by pilot error
Vladimir Isachenkov, The Associated Press
Nov. 02, 2011

MOSCOW—A Russian jet crash that killed 44 people, including an entire professional ice hockey team, was caused by pilots inadvertently putting on the brakes during takeoff, investigators said Wednesday, blaming poor crew training and lax oversight.

The Interstate Aviation Committee said the Sept. 7 crash of the Yak-42 plane near the city of Yaroslavl in central Russia occurred because one of the pilots accidentally activated the brakes during takeoff and then pulled the plane up too sharply in a desperate attempt to take off.

It was one of the worst aviation disasters ever in sports, shocking Russia and the world of hockey, as the dead included 36 players, coaches and staff of the Lokomotiv Yaroslavl hockey team. The only player who survived the crash later died of burns. A flight engineer was the sole survivor.

Alexei Morozov, who led the investigation, said the crew still had enough time to abort the takeoff safely at the moment when they realized that it had gone wrong.

He blamed the plane's owner, Yak-Service, for failing to observe safety standards and adequately train the crew. The company was closed in September by Russia's federal aviation authority following a check that found severe violations.

"The company practically lacked a proper system of flight oversight and controls over air safety," Morozov said.

Morozov said that both pilots had flown another type of plane with a slightly different cockpit layout and apparently had never learned the correct position for their feet on takeoff. He said in the Yak-42, like virtually all other existing Russian and Western planes, a pilot steers the aircraft by pressing the lower part of pedals and activates the brakes by pressing their upper part.

But instead of putting their heels on the cockpit floor as regulations require, the crew left their feet resting on the pedals, inadvertently activating the brakes and slowing the plane down on takeoff. They at first didn't notice they were putting on the brakes, and then made the fatal mistake of failing to abort the takeoff, he said.

Morozov added that a medical condition of the second pilot, and the prohibited medicine he had taken contributed to the disaster. He said the pilot's illness had passed unnoticed during an official medical certification, but had been diagnosed by private doctors whom the pilot had consulted on his own initiative.

The plane was already past half of the long, 3,000-meter (9,900 feet) runway, when the crew tried and failed to lift it. They then weighed on the steering wheel trying to lift the plane and at the same time applied even more pressure on the brakes.

The jet sped past the runway and ran 400 meters (1,320 feet) onto the grass before finally taking off. It went up so sharply that it banked on its wing and crashed on the side of the Volga River, 150 miles (240 kilometers) northeast of Moscow.

The team had been heading to Minsk, Belarus, to play its opening game of the Kontinental Hockey League season.

Among the dead were Lokomotiv coach and National Hockey League veteran Brad McCrimmon, a Canadian; assistant coach Alexander Karpovtsev, one of the first Russians to have his name etched on the Stanley Cup as a member of the New York Rangers; and Pavol Demitra, who played for the St. Louis Blues and the Vancouver Canucks and was the Slovakian national team captain.

Other standouts killed were Czech players Josef Vasicek, Karel Rachunek and Jan Marek, Swedish goalie Stefan Liv, Latvian defenseman Karlis Skrastins and defenseman Ruslan Salei of Belarus.

The crash raised new concerns about Russia's aviation safety and prompted the president to suggest replacing all aging Soviet-era aircraft with Western-made planes.

But industry experts say that recent air disasters have been rooted not simply in planes' age, but in a combination of other factors, including insufficient crew training, crumbling airports, lax government control and widespread neglect of safety in the pursuit of profits.

[oldtimer]

Mig 29, you must have read the same report that I did except what I also read was that pilots who diverted to other airports or caused dealys in the schedule may loose their bonuses or face other sanctions as the owners attempt to cut costs. The accident investigators surmise the reason the PIC refused to reject the take-off was fear of reprisals from their employer.
Apparently the pilot flying, not realising the brakes were on, yanked the control column to his chest and over rotated in a desperate attempt to get airborne.
Also sited were lack of training and lax oversight on the part of management.
Except that from wat I read, lax oversight on the part of management might be a good thing IF the pilots were properly trained and were more safety concious.
I understand that Russian aviation is not the safest.
On a side note, how many accidents or incidents has been caused by pilots who refuse to reject the take-off? I have heard of a number of them and witnessed a couple, fortunatley none were serious. It is like a deer in the headlights for some.

[dawgweed]

The Russian accident animation can be found at this link (in russian only)

http://ria.ru/tv_incidents/20111102/478868285.html

The aircraft starts taxiing at the 7 minute mark of the animation. I did notice what might have been an attempt to abort take-off, followed by an immediate increase to full power just before impact.

[Expat]

Thanks! Good clip when you understand and read russian

[into the blue]

As you hear the crew doing their pre-flight routine, you realize that if they find something wrong with the airplane, they will still be going... Canadian aviation is not perfect, but there are contries like Russia where crews are forced to accept enormous violations and have to exercise poor airmanship on a daily basis just to be able to feed their families. Or be fired. At least here, if you are dissatisfied, in many cases you can leave and find a job in some better place in just a few months. Sadly, it's not like that in Russia.

[Gogona]

As you hear the crew doing their pre-flight routine, you realize that if they find something wrong with the airplane, they will still be going....

But not in THAT case, though. They didn't discover anything wrong in their pre-flight routine, but only during the take-off roll after.

[Chaxterium]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I just watched the Mayday episode on this crash and it's crazy. If you haven't seen it it's definitely worth watching.

Cheers,
Chax

[pdw]

Yup, ... freaky how they got into that terrible accident on a "beautiful day".