Air Force Changes Admission Requirements

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:47 pm

I agree what could be more fun then to fly an 18 that seperates into many parts... must be a Canadian model. If this was the USAF then I would fight to get in. Its Canada, we don't have an AirForce. WE're protected by the states, hell they even do their flight training in Canada. The other week there was a KC-135 that flew in for fuel. One of my bosses buddies asked him what they are flying and the guy responds "I can't tell you its classified." Nice we have yanks flying cargo in our airspace and we are not allowed to know.

They let us fly a few jets and let us call it an air force so we don't feel bad...

Most of us don't care cause we don't want to be in the air force, we just think the requirements are a joke, cause hey, Canada is a joke. Thats why we produce the best comedians.

Hell the US doesn't even want us to help them, theyd rather call up Spain, cause we don't have the "adequate" equipment for war. So what is the CAF? its desk work, and if you're deployed you are stuck in some rat hole, flying rubber dog shit. Then after that be ready to spit shine those boots and march like some brain washed idiot, stand at attention and stare at a point straight ahead. Please, at least if the CAF would arm their jets with some cool weapons, when they do I shall then and only then be envious. And no potatoe guns are not considered cool.

Hun IN the SUN · Post by **Hun IN the SUN** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:26 am

BizJet, I dont think you need to go as far as saying Canada is a joke. But We are underfunded big time, Look at the Sea kings for christs sake. Do you really think the snowbirds can fly tudors till 2020. And if you remember from a couple years ago, Cant remember which war it was, but the Canadians werent involved in some of the strike missions becasue our radios werent the latest and greatest tech. And at the risk of being discovered, they werent allowed in some of the air strikes.

I do agree with you though, If I were an american citizen I would do whatever I could to get into that Club. The Navy especially, shooting approaches onto a floating ferry at night would be alright, [frickin awesome].

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Tue May 03, 2005 3:26 am

Funny how you two are pimping the USAF and USN yet complaining how stupid the CF is for requiring a degree. Newsflash for you, USAF and USN both require degrees, no exceptions. They also have an age limit, 26 for the USN. I know this for a fact since there's 2 USN exchange pilots in Shearwater right now and we've discussed the differences.

bizjet, I didn't know they gave out security clearances to ramp workers. Just because they're in Canada it doesn't mean they have to tell every yahoo why they're here. Typical Canadian response you gave there.

Anyways, I digress, you all seem to complain about the CF for one reason or another, yet none of you (except a couple) have ever stepped up to the plate and actually found out what it's about.

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:41 am

You are right USAF does require a degree, however it no longer requires 20/20 vision for transport, and the opportunities are greater. Their equipment is better unlike the 40 year old choppers and retired british and american subs we have. I mean how embarassing was that to have some European country drop off a sub that broke down in the ocean. Its like "here we dropped off your garbage!" We couldn't even pick it up ourselves. Or when we went to Sri Lanka, we went on an airplane with the russian flag on it (An-124 either Polet or Volga Dneper). People in Sri Lanka must of seen the plane and said "Wow the Russians came to help us, where are the Canadians?"

If every person in Russia right now grabbed a pitch fork and attacked us, we wouldn't even have enough bullets. Good thing we are not at war with them.
Basically the USAF and USN is worth the trouble, CAF is not. CAF is embarassing to me as a Canadian. Its like looking at a guy with a broken leg. Instead of taking him to the hospital, we kick him in his leg.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Tue May 03, 2005 5:29 am

Tell the politicians.

Wait, how old are those DC-3, beavers etc etc flying around the north at any given time?

Jungle Jim · Post by **Jungle Jim** » Tue May 03, 2005 6:28 am

I think the degree requirement is to ensure that the personnel will be capable of other duties between flying postings and after a person's flying is complete. It makes sense in that it would give them a lot more flexibility in what sort of positions an officer could be assigned. Lots of posibilities for engineers, lawyers, vets., dentists, etc.

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Tue May 03, 2005 6:57 am

lowandslow,

As for your comment yesterday

Let me guess, you applied and were turned down...
LIVE WITH IT....
Wanna be an air force pilot, go get a degree and apply... how much easier is to understand...?
You make their case for wanting their new pilots to have a four year degree...
Hopefully soon you will realize that TT doesn't mean sh#t...

i never applied, i looked into the airforce. they could not guarantee me a pilot seat so i walked. Bitter, not at all, at least im flying without all the bullshit desk crap that goes along with your prestigious F-18 job, have fun with it. if that is actaully what you do.

Now before anybody thinks that i am anti air force, i have friends in the airforce and my family has been in the american and canadain airforce. So i am asll for it, it just wasnt for me.

No i do not want to be an airforce pilot, at one point in my life i thought it would be a good idea and a good career move but after some research i found that it wasnt going to help my career the way they promise.

And how is it that I make their case for them wanting a four year degree, i looked at the university gig, realised that i didnt want to spend 8 years in school just to sit behind a desk. To each their own.

Now if ive offended anybody here i appologize, this was not directed at anybody other than lowandslow.

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Tue May 03, 2005 8:18 am

hmmm... lownslow... judging by his name I believe he is a CAF CF-18 pilot

... just poking some fun at you no offence intended.

Over the Horn · Post by **Over the Horn** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:02 pm

I think the last bombs that were dropped by the Canadian Forces were on the Yellowknife golf course rotflmao!!!

but seriosly why did the guy in the CF-18 eject when he bounced the landing last year in Yellowknife

is that the kind of decision making that comes with a 4 year degree or the fact that they quit flying floats because it took them 20min to dock a twotter using a 3 man crew because the pilot wasn't allowed to stick his head out the window

. oh well I guess thats what this country gets for electing a Liberal goverment I'm not sure any of us would do better in the shoe's of those guys dealing with cutbacks and the bloated burocracy that is our mighty millitary, 4 year degree or not! I can only hope the people of Ontario (aka the center of the universe) wake up and vote for the Conservatives

Hun IN the SUN · Post by **Hun IN the SUN** » Tue May 03, 2005 4:09 pm

WOOOHH hold up

he ejected cause why? I never heard that part

although yes I hope the Conservatives get in, But it does suck that ontario controls the way the vote goes.

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Tue May 03, 2005 5:31 pm

I'd have to say I would have done the same. In an aircraft like the Hornet, or Hawk or even the Harvard, you've got a much better chance of egressing the aircraft by ejecting than you do by riding out the "crash". Here's what Flight Safety had to say about it. http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/dfs/do ... 8761_e.asp

A Hawk in Moose Jaw landed gear up a couple years ago (Hungarian dude so don't even make the degree crack on that one!), the guy stayed in the aircraft even as it slid into the infield. Had the jet caught a wing tip, cart wheeled and ended up inverted and on fire, he would have been unable to egress the aircraft given the way the canopy is designed, or so we were instructed.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Tue May 03, 2005 6:30 pm

Your telling me flying an 18 for what?? 40-60 hours a year would full-fill your life?!?!?! .. Everyone thinks the 172 is amazing when they first start out .. then your first piston twin .. what could be better! .. then your first turbo-prop job! Wooohooo!! almost at the top .. then .. the first jet job! .. its all you dreamed it would be .. but in the end, its all the same .. the thrill is nothing more than a dull roar .. it becomes .. a job .. and all you look forward to is your pay-cheque and days off .. so .. if you think that the 18 would/will be any different?!?! .. I don't think so .. it would be fun for a while .. but then it would just become a job ..

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Tue May 03, 2005 7:35 pm

everyone does it for the love of it, until they have a family and bills then the love and excitement dies down and its about $$$. Just look at the guys on pprune complaining about their $10,000 a month paycheck.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Tue May 03, 2005 9:16 pm

Localizer wrote:Your telling me flying an 18 for what?? 40-60 hours a year would full-fill your life?!?!?! .. Everyone thinks the 172 is amazing when they first start out .. then your first piston twin .. what could be better! .. then your first turbo-prop job! Wooohooo!! almost at the top .. then .. the first jet job! .. its all you dreamed it would be .. but in the end, its all the same .. the thrill is nothing more than a dull roar .. it becomes .. a job .. and all you look forward to is your pay-cheque and days off .. so .. if you think that the 18 would/will be any different?!?! .. I don't think so .. it would be fun for a while .. but then it would just become a job ..

I have not met an 18 pilot that didn't love his job and look forward to every flight. Maybe it's different when you go up and dogfight your buddies for an hour vs hitting autopilot and hauling drunks around the north. Every March you can see how much they've been looking forward to holidays when the boss forces everyone to burn the rest of their leave.

Also average hours on the 18 is around 180-200/yr, not 40-60.

As for the guy in Yellowknife. When y'all get qualified to fly the 18 and get current on the SOPs for that A/C then maybe your opinion on that incident might matter. If the guy hadn't ejected and the situation turned into a big fireball tearing down the runway you'd all be sitting there saying, "well he's got the system why didn't he eject? What an idiot for destroying our plane."

Dont believe everything you see in the news. I'm sure everyone here has seen them butcher a civil aviation story it's no different on the military side. If any of you have any serious questions about the CF feel free to PM or come for a visit.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Tue May 03, 2005 9:57 pm

Don't we all do this for the love of it?? .. I don't think I need you to be telling me, people do this job for the love of it there pup! .. I've done my share of the northern ..-runs, with pax so drunk the smell would make me sick to my stomach. It takes love of the job to put of with crap like that .. not to mention the skinny paycheques ta boot!

As for the 18 .. Im skeptical about the 180-200 hrs a year, I don't really believe its that high. There is what? 30 airworthy 18's in Canada? So for the part about it being the "best job out there" .. and I didn't say this before but should have .. Do you think its going to be all glamour when you are actually called to fight? Could you sit in that cockpit and kill another human being? Someone who has a family back home just like you .. a civi-life with buddies back home? .. I doubt it .. Just remember those planes are built with one purpose .. not airshows .. but to kill .. Now I can't wait for all the tough talk to begin ..

Remember its V.E. week .. have you thanked a war vet for his sacrifice?

costermonger · Post by **costermonger** » Tue May 03, 2005 11:21 pm

Unless the four operational CF-18 squadrons have lost half their aircraft in the last 5 years, there are ~60 in operational service. About 20 more belong to 410 Squadron, the training squadron, and the remaining are in storage or maintenance. Maybe looking something up would help make your point, Localizer, that is if you have one. Or you could just stick with your initial misconceptions regardless of the facts. Your choice.

. . · Post by **. .** » Wed May 04, 2005 1:02 am

After say 10yrs in the airforce, if you were given the CF-18 what would someones total time look like? I realize that 10yrs in the airforce doesn't equal 10years flying. Just wondering exactly how much you would average over a 10yr period.

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Wed May 04, 2005 4:45 am

Eh,...
We're comparing apples and oranges, here. It's like the cement truck driver telling Schumacher that he was not lucky because he only drove a few hours a week!
As far as putting down the CAF, you must remember that there is no place in there for the career co-pilots. The structure is a pyramid. And for those who stop flying, for any reason, are ejected from it and use their degrees to continue their careers. The military is a career first, so that if something happens to your medical, you're not out in the cold. You could end up in a recruitment center, or the NATO Headquarters, or Project Officer in a large procurement program. All that with the same rank and pay as before, less the flying allowance.
Some of you should be very thankful that we only have a small Air force. Think about it ...In Russia,or many other countries , my friends, there are no flight schools. If you can't make the cut in the military... forget it, you'll never fly! Period
In Canada, the military provides just a tiny fraction of the pilot supply, and you can fly with glasses, etc.
As far as the quality is concerned, I will always bet on the fast learner, and in the military you have to learn fast. I'm not sure of the requirements now, but you could be a Snowbird pilot while your civvy buddy with the same hours is still doing fire patrols in a C-182.
As far as the screening results are concerned, I will give you an example. When the weather goes to sh*t here the company pilots formed by flight schools are on the ground, because there are no navaids but the military and ex-soviet guys are still flying.
As far as the degree is concerned, if you can't find the courage or tenacity to get one, it shows your lack willingness to learn or lack of intellectual capacity, and is not a good sign...
Cheers,

Vickers vanguard · Post by **Vickers vanguard** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:25 am

CH 124 driver,

I haven't looked at the airforce report on that CF18 landing incident yet, but I will. However, I was really surprised to see footage of the airplane in almost perfect shape, sitting on its gear ( I think the nose gear was in the mud or something......)...without the pilot's seat....after hearing news of a landing overun and a pilot ejecting from the A/C. I don't have any expertise with military jets, but that seems like a bad judgment to me !

Hot Fuel · Post by **Hot Fuel** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:40 am

It appears to me that many of the posts in this string are coming from the angle that the degree requirement is an obstacle that they feel is unnecessary and also preventing them from “getting the job”. It seems many of you feel that a flying position in the Canadian Armed Forces is a means to an end, a stepping stone to the airlines. I think you will find they are in fact looking for career pilots. The degree requirement probably weeds out many of the folks looking to use them as a launch platform because they are not willing to make the educational commitment never mind the military commitment. The type of people they are looking for don’t expect an affluent lifestyle flying military aircraft; they are looking for those that find a military lifestyle appealing. They want people that take the position that they are serving their country not looking for the best possible job in aviation. If you view flying military aircraft as an entry level flying position or way to get a start in aviation you are getting into the military for all the wrong reasons.

YYC the place to be · Wed May 04, 2005 10:18 am

I feel that my CPL and multi IFR are a bigger deal that a 4 year university degree. I have already spent what I would on my CPL an Multi IFR that my buddies spent on university. Say what you want but, this is what i think.

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Wed May 04, 2005 1:24 pm

Vickers vanguard wrote:CH 124 driver,

I haven't looked at the airforce report on that CF18 landing incident yet, but I will. However, I was really surprised to see footage of the airplane in almost perfect shape, sitting on its gear ( I think the nose gear was in the mud or something......)...without the pilot's seat....after hearing news of a landing overun and a pilot ejecting from the A/C. I don't have any expertise with military jets, but that seems like a bad judgment to me !

The report says that he rotated through 300 degrees, if I ended up going backwards down the runway in an aircraft that was never designed to go backwards under it's own power, I'm punching out. It could have just as easily had the gear collapse, catch a wing tip, flip and explode.

I have 97 hours flying ejection seat aircraft, all on the Harvard II as well as a show practice motivex in a Tutor with the Snowbirds. I'll tell you up front, when you've got an ejection seat, you're taught that you're more important than the aircraft so use the seat if you feel you need to. We only ever did Practice Forced Landings to the airport, in fact, only at CYMJ. So, you're out in the training area, if you have an engine failure and you're not high enough to make High Key back in Moose Jaw, well, you're going for a parachute ride. The aircraft can be replaced, you can't.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:00 pm

Localizer wrote: So for the part about it being the "best job out there" .. and I didn't say this before but should have .. Do you think its going to be all glamour when you are actually called to fight? Could you sit in that cockpit and kill another human being? Someone who has a family back home just like you .. a civi-life with buddies back home? .. I doubt it .. Just remember those planes are built with one purpose .. not airshows .. but to kill .. Now I can't wait for all the tough talk to begin ..

Remember its V.E. week .. have you thanked a war vet for his sacrifice?

I speak with 2 vets all the time, they're my grandfathers.

What makes you think my morals are yours or the boards business at all or that I should come on and justify them to you, no matter what they are?

Hot Fuel has it about right. The military isnt a stepping stone between flight instructor and air canada, if thats what you're after civie street will get you there faster if you get the right jobs/people.

Quagmire · Post by **Quagmire** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:18 pm

Most of the Luftwaffes top aces did not have university education and they where by far the highest scoring pilots in history. Adolf Galland was pretty much blind in one eye and yet he shot down over 100 enemy aircraft on the western front.

My friend joined up over 1.5 years ago, it took a year for him to get into officer training. He is in a desk job in Trenton waiting for a position in flight training to open up.

It would a different story if they took only people with aeronautical engineers or computer engineers, but I mean really what does a degree in modern art teach you about shooting down an enemy aircraft? I mean seriosly.

CH124 Driver · Post by **CH124 Driver** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:39 pm

Quagmire wrote:Most of the Luftwaffes top aces did not have university education and they where by far the highest scoring pilots in history. Adolf Galland was pretty much blind in one eye and yet he shot down over 100 enemy aircraft on the western front.

My friend joined up over 1.5 years ago, it took a year for him to get into officer training. He is in a desk job in Trenton waiting for a position in flight training to open up.

It would a different story if they took only people with aeronautical engineers or computer engineers, but I mean really what does a degree in modern art teach you about shooting down an enemy aircraft? I mean seriosly.

Wow, that's brilliant, because nothing has changed in the last 60 years right? Oh wait, I know what's changed, we don't crash a dozen aircraft every week, I guess education hasn't helped in that respect at all eh? Not to mention that aircraft fly farther, faster and carry more weapons than they ever did in WWII. He'd probably be like a dog watching TV if you were to take Mr Galland and put him in a modern jet. Sorry, but your comparisons to pilot requirements in a war that started over 60 years ago before colour TV and satellites were invented just doesn't hold water.