Petition To Save The Mars.

[North Shore]

How much wood is actually left, though? Between 60+ years of industrial logging, and the recent pine beetle attack, and salvage thereafter, logging in BC is going the way of the dodo..

[iflyforpie]

There going like mad in the back country here. It's unsustainable..... and when guys who are running faller-bunchers are saying that, you know it's not hippy tree-hugger crap....

It's interesting with the Pine Beetle though.... because here in the South East it's opened up the forest for the Spruce and Fir.... and of course, Spruce Bud Worm and Balsam Beetle.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There was a plan to re-engine them many years ago. Putting on four PW150's might tear the wings right off the old girl.... How about some nice PW127's instead? It might be a bit of a bugger to set-up the autofeather and power uptrim systems. I'll go work on her for free if they do it.

The plan was to use L 188 Electra QEC's with the 4000 hp Allison 501D. Unfortunately the fuel system components were not compatible and so the entire fuel system would have had to be changed out, a job that made the mod to expensive and complex. Too bad it would have made the airplane a force to be reckoned with on the interior lakes.

[Dibbley]

[quote="iflyforpie"][quote="Dibbley"]Yes, it might be able to smother some smoldering Rank 1 in the middle of nowhere and no further action will be required..... but you will never see a Rank 3 or higher interface fire actioned by a Mars and nothing else and have a successful outcome.
/quote]

Maybe I'm from the old school but I assume that fires have not changed that much - these ranking systems sound like the creation of the modern era and office dwellers. There is never the claim made that aircraft support is the end all, but I do hope before you put the ground crews in, an effort is made to knock back the inferno with a credible air response,so their jobs are safe to do. It does sound like the accountants and ministry folk are calling the shots these days, and therefore the positive media spin to justify the use of these fancy agplanes.

Good post on the Slave Lake disaster and the failure of the new technology to do the job. It opened my eyes to what had been unreported in the press. Let's hope that this event does not become repeated.

[bigsky]

People keep wanting to compare the purchase price between different tankers and yet most won't factor in the dollar savings associated with the price of saved timber limits, personal property, towns etc. Every CL-415 in our fleet has been bought and paid for many times over in the number of potential disasters they have prevented and the price it would have cost the taxpayers to suppress them. You only have to eliminate one fire that would have ended up costing $20 to $30 million to extinguish and the purchase price is covered.

Let's have a look at Slave Lake, Alberta. If that fire would have been stopped how much money would have been saved. We won't even get into the misery and anguish that the local people have been thru. Sitting on the ramp that day was a nice shiny fleet of new FireBosses. I'm sure everyone including the local taxpayers were quite happy and felt very well protected during the extreme hazard. They had no reason to feel any different cause they were told they were. A fire starts with extremely strong winds blowing. The FireBosses wouldn't take off because it was too windy nor would they scoop in Lesser Slave Lk cause it was too rough. We all know the outcome of that day. Would a fleet of CL-415's sitting there have prevented the disaster, no one will ever know. I do know the CL-415's would have been flying and scooping out of Lesser Slave and we do know the FireBoss showed it's limitations that day. Did the taxpayer save any money by having contracted a less expensive bomber? Just cause it's cheaper is no guarantee that you will save money.

You were there were you? Obviously not, because not one bit of this post is correct. Where were Alberta's fleet of 215's and 215T's that day?
This post just goes to show how little one should believe on these boards.

[fougner]

.

[CLguy]

No I wasn't there but I know people who were. I'm talking the Initial Attack phase not the Sustained Action phase that took place for many days to follow.

There were also some other bad decisions that took place that day. Like the one to send the 580's into Slave for fuel and reloads instead of another base like Loon River. They got stuck on the ground and had to watch the show after the airport lost their power.

I stand by what I said!

When the PBY's got replaced, they were were replaced by something bigger and better. Unfortunately for the Mars this is not the case.

[fougner]

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[iflyforpie]

Yes, it might be able to smother some smoldering Rank 1 in the middle of nowhere and no further action will be required..... but you will never see a Rank 3 or higher interface fire actioned by a Mars and nothing else and have a successful outcome.

Maybe I'm from the old school but I assume that fires have not changed that much - these ranking systems sound like the creation of the modern era and office dwellers.

No... they were created by people and used by people who are on the ground and in the air around fires to classify fire behaviour and prevent the loss of equipment, values, and lives like was so common back in 'the good old days'.... and to determine the correct course of action--which will probably be sending air tankers in to a particularly nasty one.

Nice try though....

There is never the claim made that aircraft support is the end all, but I do hope before you put the ground crews in, an effort is made to knock back the inferno with a credible air response,so their jobs are safe to do.

That's why I said....

The tankers buy you time.

They still don't put out fires.

It does sound like the accountants and ministry folk are calling the shots these days, and therefore the positive media spin to justify the use of these fancy agplanes.

No... it's simply progress.... compared to the massive clusterfucks of yesteryear, fire management has improved tremendously. In fact... IMHO it's too efficient. It's only those who feel their livelihoods or positions threatened that are attacking it.

Finally.... sometimes there is nothing you can do to stop a fire. I saw it first-hand in '03 in the Okanagan. Maybe they could have nipped it in the bud with an early morning run and a rap crew.... but Okanagan Mountain Park was a tinder box that would have simply gone up at another time.

It's interesting to note that most of the recommendations for reducing these interface fires... like controlled burns, reducing fuels, and making permanent fire guards around municipalities as recommended in the wake of Okanagan Mountain Park... haven't been implemented.

[Cat Driver]

I see you are really taking a beating here CLguy because you are seen as a....

Unfortunately when you get behind your computer and enter this new fangled cyber world you come across as a bitter, miserable old fool.

I stay out of these pissing matches because I am even older than you and from an era when us pilots were totally ignorant of every factor in flying anything.....

.....how did we even survive this long?

I wonder how much some of these new age professionals would charge us to teach us how to fly as good they do?

[Dibbley]

Yes, it might be able to smother some smoldering Rank 1 in the middle of nowhere and no further action will be required..... but you will never see a Rank 3 or higher interface fire actioned by a Mars and nothing else and have a successful outcome.

Maybe I'm from the old school but I assume that fires have not changed that much - these ranking systems sound like the creation of the modern era and office dwellers.

No... they were created by people and used by people who are on the ground and in the air around fires to classify fire behaviour and prevent the loss of equipment, values, and lives like was so common back in 'the good old days'.... and to determine the correct course of action--which will probably be sending air tankers in to a particularly nasty one.

Nice try though....

There is never the claim made that aircraft support is the end all, but I do hope before you put the ground crews in, an effort is made to knock back the inferno with a credible air response,so their jobs are safe to do.

That's why I said....

The tankers buy you time.

They still don't put out fires.

It does sound like the accountants and ministry folk are calling the shots these days, and therefore the positive media spin to justify the use of these fancy agplanes.

No... it's simply progress.... compared to the massive clusterfucks of yesteryear, fire management has improved tremendously. In fact... IMHO it's too efficient. It's only those who feel their livelihoods or positions threatened that are attacking it.

Finally.... sometimes there is nothing you can do to stop a fire. I saw it first-hand in '03 in the Okanagan. Maybe they could have nipped it in the bud with an early morning run and a rap crew.... but Okanagan Mountain Park was a tinder box that would have simply gone up at another time.

It's interesting to note that most of the recommendations for reducing these interface fires... like controlled burns, reducing fuels, and making permanent fire guards around municipalities as recommended in the wake of Okanagan Mountain Park... haven't been implemented.

Gee - all that for me? I'm touched.... Maybe you assume that I am a relic standing here with a double bladed axe quinting at all this new fangled technology with great suspicion. I actually work in the aviation industry on the latest and greatest bits out there - and therefore my disbelief that these great improvements are the cure all. I have a suspicion that what they are providing is great results on the fiscal bottom line, but not necessarily the greatest results in the real world. But then you know much better than I what the situation really is by your position. As I have learned through my many years in the industry, technological advances sometimes are foisted upon us to keep the illusion that things are improving. I sure wish I could believe you.

[CLguy]

You better move over Cat apparently you are being replaced!!

[Cat Driver]

You better move over Cat apparently you are being replaced!!

I was replaced many years ago in the water bombing game, in fact the last year I flew the scoopers was 1985.

I do enjoy reading about how far advanced fire suppression has evolved though since the era I flew them.

As to fire suppression using airplanes back in the time when physics were just being figured out we thought that delivering water to a fire every three minutes or less was effective in dropping the temperature of the fire and it seemed to put the fire down......but maybe I was just imagining it because I thought it was effective.

Water scoopers deliver water at an average rate of twenty loads per hour.......however when we used fire retardant only the load delivery took a lot longer...

...for sure accuracy in the drop was very important and if a crew missed their drop and had to fly back to the airport and get another load the effectiveness of a fire bomber was greatly reduced.

Are these new crews just better pilots and they never miss a drop?

[Big Pistons Forever]

The closer the water the better scoopers work. Unfortunately there are large sections of Western Canada where there are no scoopable water sources anywhere close to the fires. For these situations retardant is the only option.

The best scenario is when you can use both scoopers and retardant bombers at the same time. The retardant can limit the spread of the fire while the scoopers keep the fire down until it gets cooler and/or the ground crew put it out.

One advantage of the Fireboss over the Cl 415 is that they can be dispatched to the fire with a load of retardant, lay a line down along the edge of the fire and then switch to water drops right on the fire.

[Cat Driver]

I thought the 415 has a cam lock connection for loading long term at airports.....the PBY's did and we often started the fire action with long term.....if water was close to the fire we scooped, if not we were land based tankers and kept returning to the airport for long term.

One good thing about my time as an air attack pilot I was hired as a direct entry Captain and trained by one of the best in the business before I went all on my own.

However I did have to spend a lot of time in the right hand seat over the years when doing training.

[pilotidentity]

I can't wait to get old so I can tell anyone younger than me how much better I am. You guys crack me up! Ha Ha!

[Cat Driver]

I can't wait to get old so I can tell anyone younger than me how much better I am. You guys crack me up! Ha Ha!

Reading your posts from the past if I were you I would be more worried about being able to afford to fly as long as some of us did the way the industry pilot pay is headed.

Yup... for sure if I were flying for an airline these days I would forget about the generation that has retired and worry about the low cost low pay trend that is gathering speed.