New TA reached!

[teacher]

I'm not completely clear on the issue with the Thomas Cook flying but I think the problem that some of the guys have is that they believe some AC resources are being used to compete with the Air Canada product. For example the executives and managers would probably need to travel back and forth from YHZ to YYZ - is this being done on AC passes? As I said I'm not really aware of the details but it's that kind of thing that bugs some guys.

Actually there is a lot of deadheading involved and manager travel and it's all paid for full fare on AC.

[Gentle Giant]

Actually there is a lot of deadheading involved and manager travel and it's all paid for full fare on AC.

You'll pardon me if I say that I find that hard to believe?

[JazzJetDriver]

Trust me, believe.

[teacher]

Believe it, entire '57 crews deadheading full fare on your airline. Do you really think they'd fly on passes on a deadhead in the hopes that nobody gets bumped

[flyinhigh]

I would believe as I have flown said members and such on our flights and they were not in the front, they were in the back with all the other economy folks.

If you chose not to believe this, than that is just your own perogitive to allow you to bitch more about something you don't know about.

Do you really think that CR would allow pass travel during operation to compete with your vacation market? I sure don't, look what he did to Deluce.

[Gentle Giant]

I would believe as I have flown said members and such on our flights and they were not in the front, they were in the back with all the other economy folks.

If you chose not to believe this, than that is just your own perogitive to allow you to bitch more about something you don't know about.

Do you really think that CR would allow pass travel during operation to compete with your vacation market? I sure don't, look what he did to Deluce.

Well first of all I didn't say, "pass travel during operation" - I think the general concern was more about commuters using passes but for me, personally, I think the chance that the managers and executives are buying full fare tickets to fly back and forth to YYZ from YHZ if they have TC business are slim-to-nil. I have no proof however so I'll just have to defer to your claims that it's all legit.

[Localizer]

Well first of all I didn't say, "pass travel during operation" - I think the general concern was more about commuters using passes but for me, personally, I think the chance that the managers and executives are buying full fare tickets to fly back and forth to YYZ from YHZ if they have TC business are slim-to-nil. I have no proof however so I'll just have to defer to

This is what keeps you awake at night?? .. If Jazz managers are flying around on passes or cheap tickets? .. This is what it all boils down to? I guess its safe to say we're all doomed if this is what we worry about.

Its pretty obvious that some people have no idea what they're talking about .. We're creating imaginary issues and those issues are causing rifts .. hard to believe but that's the reality.

Please do yourselves a favour and get informed before spewing nonsense and rhetoric.

[dream_big]

This is what keeps you awake at night?? .. If Jazz managers are flying around on passes or cheap tickets? .. This is what it all boils down to? I guess its safe to say we're all doomed if this is what we worry about.

Its pretty obvious that some people have no idea what they're talking about .. We're creating imaginary issues and those issues are causing rifts .. hard to believe but that's the reality.

Please do yourselves a favour and get informed before spewing nonsense and rhetoric.

No no localizer, your getting what our friendly ACPA is saying ALL wrong! First off just having an opinion is a step in the wrong direction!
Let me reiterate what Gentle Giant has been talking about the last 20 posts.
Here it goes, let me know how I do. ACPA shall have a clause stating that AC can go and give Tier II flying to ANYONE, and thou shall also have a clause stating Jazz can't go and enter a CPA with someone in direct competition with AC like Westjet. We want jazz to feel the pain of competition but at the same time we don't want them to have the ability to do anything about it! and as long as they obtain this, AC will avoid bankruptcy.


WHAT IT ALL BOILS down to, jazz is the reason AC is requesting concessions!

[Gentle Giant]

No no localizer, your getting what our friendly ACPA is saying ALL wrong! First off just having an opinion is a step in the wrong direction!
Let me reiterate what Gentle Giant has been talking about the last 20 posts.
Here it goes, let me know how I do. ACPA shall have a clause stating that AC can go and give Tier II flying to ANYONE, and thou shall also have a clause stating Jazz can't go and enter a CPA with someone in direct competition with AC like Westjet. We want jazz to feel the pain of competition but at the same time we don't want them to have the ability to do anything about it! and as long as they obtain this, AC will avoid bankruptcy.


WHAT IT ALL BOILS down to, jazz is the reason AC is requesting concessions!

If you refuse to actually read what I wrote in the "last 20 posts" there is no point in re-posting it here.

Have a good day....

GG

[Gentle Giant]

Well first of all I didn't say, "pass travel during operation" - I think the general concern was more about commuters using passes but for me, personally, I think the chance that the managers and executives are buying full fare tickets to fly back and forth to YYZ from YHZ if they have TC business are slim-to-nil. I have no proof however so I'll just have to defer to

This is what keeps you awake at night?? .. If Jazz managers are flying around on passes or cheap tickets? .. This is what it all boils down to? I guess its safe to say we're all doomed if this is what we worry about.

Its pretty obvious that some people have no idea what they're talking about .. We're creating imaginary issues and those issues are causing rifts .. hard to believe but that's the reality.

Please do yourselves a favour and get informed before spewing nonsense and rhetoric.

Where do you get "spewing nonsense and rhetoric" from what I wrote? We're having a civil discussion, or at least I thought we were.

This issue of pass travel doesn't keep me awake at night - never said it did, it's simply an example I have heard from some who think that there is, effectively, some subsidization of the TC operation happening.

[ChallengerDan]

It is this kind of assumptions that contribute to put ourselves against each other.
A Jazz commuter is a Jazz commuter. Those are perks that were given a long time ago.

Anything that had to do with ThomasCook, ie training, meetings, deadheading, etc was done on full fare tickets.

I would like to think of our two groups, Jazz and AirCanada, as one big family. There is no need for hard-feelings. Who benefits from that?
I make sure our operations run smoothly.... so that yours runs smoothly too.

[mbav8r]

I believe Jazz is free to persue CPA agreements with anyone they want according to their agreement with AC.

Gentle Giant,
You're partly correct here, Jazz can pursue other CPA flying, but we are not "free" to do so. There is a cost, if Jazz entered into an agreement with, let's say Westjet, for 300 flights daily. Air Canada can reduce our CPA capacity by the same amount. So unless it were substantially more money, what would be the point. Remember we are talking about Westjet here, they won't pay more than AC for anything, other than Pilot wages I suppose. Other than Westjet, who else would we provide CPA services for? Certainly, in the future, once we hit bottom, we will be competitive enough to compete with Colgan.

[Gentle Giant]

A Jazz commuter is a Jazz commuter. Those are perks that were given a long time ago.

Well, I think you're wrong about that. Here's a quote from the policy section of the employee travel website:

Personal travel privileges are subject to the following:
Valid for personal/eligible family use only
Invalid for any business/business related travel. Personal travel privileges on Air Canada and other airlines are solely for the purpose of pleasure travel and not for any personal/business venture for the employee, family member or travel partner or on behalf of an individual/company for which a salary or commission is paid.

If the passes are being used by someone to commute to Thomas Cook flying I would interpret that as a contravention of the pass policy. Anyway, doesn't really bother me. I'm just saying, for some people, there is a feeling that the Thomas Cook flying is competition for the AC Vacation flying and that it's being subsidized in various small ways by Air Canada. Now, don't jump on me about that comment - I'm just repeating what I've heard and trying to you some idea of why the Thomas Cook flying is a lightning rod.

[Gentle Giant]

Air Canada can reduce our CPA capacity by the same amount.

Really? Are you sure, because I have never heard it explained this way before?

[rudder]

Air Canada can reduce our CPA capacity by the same amount.

Really? Are you sure, because I have never heard it explained this way before?

On an aircraft-by-aircraft basis, yes.

[mbav8r]

Yes, I am sure.
(a) General. Subject to complying with the terms of this Agreement, nothing in this
Agreement shall preclude Jazz from providing services to others, including Charter
Flights to the public, capacity services to other carriers or any other air transportation
services. In the event that, at any time after the total number of Covered Aircraft has
reached one hundred and thirty-three (133), Jazz has had discussions with another
carrier to provide regional airline services (other than Charter Flights) and it is
contemplating entering into an agreement with such carrier, whether on a capacity
purchase or other economic basis, Jazz will then advise Air Canada of the contractual
number of aircraft and type to be operated under such prospective agreement. Air
Canada shall, upon written notice (the "Reduction Notice") given within ten Business
Days of its receipt of the notice from Jazz regarding such prospective agreement,
indicate whether it wishes to reduce the number of Covered Aircraft, on a one-for-one
basis,

[rudder]

A Jazz commuter is a Jazz commuter. Those are perks that were given a long time ago.

Well, I think you're wrong about that. Here's a quote from the policy section of the employee travel website:

Personal travel privileges are subject to the following:
Valid for personal/eligible family use only
Invalid for any business/business related travel. Personal travel privileges on Air Canada and other airlines are solely for the purpose of pleasure travel and not for any personal/business venture for the employee, family member or travel partner or on behalf of an individual/company for which a salary or commission is paid.

If the passes are being used by someone to commute to Thomas Cook flying I would interpret that as a contravention of the pass policy. Anyway, doesn't really bother me. I'm just saying, for some people, there is a feeling that the Thomas Cook flying is competition for the AC Vacation flying and that it's being subsidized in various small ways by Air Canada. Now, don't jump on me about that comment - I'm just repeating what I've heard and trying to you some idea of why the Thomas Cook flying is a lightning rod.

It's a shame that the TC contract didn't go to one of the Canadian operators that use foreign pilots for seasonal work so that there wouldn't have to be some inane debate about 'travel policy' for Canadian pilots as the foreign pilots who were performing Canadian jobs would have confirmed tickets back and forth to the foreign countries that they live in when they are not taking jobs away from Canadian pilots.

As for D/H, the Jazz crews travel under similar terms as Transat and Canjet crews on AC flights (corporate travel rates). I too am shocked that AC accepts $$ to fill seats from companies that AC competes with.

AC has convinced ACPA and apparently many AC pilots that a part time gig for 6 aircraft is the cause of all of its competitive woes. Must be true and WJ is not even on the radar screen. Or perhaps revisiting the reciprocal jump seat agreement with WJ is also an area that would improve the bottom line at AC? Perhaps if AC can make it more difficult for WJ pilots to get to work, then WJ will fold?

I certainly hope that more important topics than this are the subject matter at the MEC meeting today.

[Gentle Giant]

In the event that, at any time after the total number of Covered Aircraft has
reached one hundred and thirty-three (133)

Well, thanks. I had never seen that before. How many aircraft at Jazz now?

[Localizer]

Gentle Giant,

I'm sorry my friend, but you don't know the facts. Do yourself .. and all of us a favour and get informed about AC/Jazz and the CPA. Sadly, you can't trust your company to give you the facts and it appears you can't even trust your own union to give you the facts, but you can find out all the information you need on the net .. its all public.

There are some good people posting good factual information .. you just choose not to accept it.

Air Canada does not subsidize Jazz in the Thomas Cook venture ..

[Stu Pidasso]

I would like to think of our two groups, Jazz and AirCanada, as one big family. There is no need for hard-feelings. Who benefits from that?
I make sure our operations run smoothly.... so that yours runs smoothly too.

Unfortunately that ship has long sailed. Mainline Commuters are reporting that they are getting constantly refused the jumpseat on Jazz, with the "canned" excuse of "weight and balance."

One guy got tossed out of the BACK of an RJ with 12 open seats. Captain claiming "weight and balance."

It's getting a bit old, boys.

The existing Pass Priorities "were" days away from getting changed. Now that this T/A has been scrapped, tough to tell what will happen?

[Gentle Giant]

It's a shame that the TC contract didn't go to one of the Canadian operators that use foreign pilots for seasonal work so that there wouldn't have to be some inane debate about 'travel policy' for Canadian pilots as the foreign pilots who were performing Canadian jobs would have confirmed tickets back and forth to the foreign countries that they live in when they are not taking jobs away from Canadian pilots.

As for D/H, the Jazz crews travel under similar terms as Transat and Canjet crews on AC flights (corporate travel rates). I too am shocked that AC accepts $$ to fill seats from companies that AC competes with.

AC has convinced ACPA and apparently many AC pilots that a part time gig for 6 aircraft is the cause of all of its competitive woes. Must be true and WJ is not even on the radar screen. Or perhaps revisiting the reciprocal jump seat agreement with WJ is also an area that would improve the bottom line at AC? Perhaps if AC can make it more difficult for WJ pilots to get to work, then WJ will fold?

I certainly hope that more important topics than this are the subject matter at the MEC meeting today.

1.) The use of foreign pilots is a completely different discussion - I would bet that we would agree 100% on that topic.

2.) You do understand the difference between commuters and D/H right? Seems like you are using the two terms at random.

3.) Of course there are more important things going on at the MEC meeting - this is just a place for people like you and I to fling anonymous insults at each other.

[Gentle Giant]

Air Canada does not subsidize Jazz in the Thomas Cook venture ..

Well, not by choice, obviously.

[Localizer]

Well, thanks. I had never seen that before. How many aircraft at Jazz now?

125 as of today .. it will be back up to 133 after the delivery of the Q400, but 8 (RJ's) will be considered swing.

Unfortunately that ship has long sailed. Mainline Commuters are reporting that they are getting constantly refused the jumpseat on Jazz, with the "canned" excuse of "weight and balance."

One guy got tossed out of the BACK of an RJ with 12 open seats. Captain claiming "weight and balance."

It's getting a bit old, boys.

The existing Pass Priorities "were" days away from getting changed. Now that this T/A has been scrapped, tough to tell what will happen.

Its safe to say its going both ways. There are lots of Jazz commuters feeling the same pain. All we can do is hope that some people will just grow up and be mature adults ... instead of babies in need of a pacifier.

[mbav8r]

To respond to this issue, almost gives credence to it. In the interest of clarity, the pilots who fly the 57 work for, wait for it, JAZZ. They are paid from Jazz, their pension is from Jazz, their benefits are from Jazz. They do not work for Thomas Cook. In fact, their position is 57/RJ and some are now back in training to transition back to the RJ.
The D/H issue is a non-issue, they are full fare passengers, and accumulating areoplan points, I believe some even attained super elite status.

[rudder]

I would like to think of our two groups, Jazz and AirCanada, as one big family. There is no need for hard-feelings. Who benefits from that?
I make sure our operations run smoothly.... so that yours runs smoothly too.

Unfortunately that ship has long sailed. Mainline Commuters are reporting that they are getting constantly refused the jumpseat on Jazz, with the "canned" excuse of "weight and balance."

One guy got tossed out of the BACK of an RJ with 12 open seats. Captain claiming "weight and balance."

It's getting a bit old, boys.

The existing Pass Priorities "were" days away from getting changed. Now that this T/A has been scrapped, tough to tell what will happen?

This has been covered before. Jazz has some a$$holes and AC has some a$$holes. That will likely never change.

If pass priorities change, it will likely be more difficult for both groups to commute when relying on the J/S courtesy. Many pilots from both groups have already discovered that travel on WJ and Porter is much more pleasant and cost effective anyway.