College of Pilots?

[Doc]

703/704

Buying jobs.
Stuck with large bonds.
Pilots working ramps/docks under the guise of "learning" the operation, and proving their worth.
Companies running rough shod over pilot's basic rights to take vacations, call in sick.
Fear of retribution for calling duty days, turning back due to weather, refusing to fly overloads, refusing to skip fuel stops....the list goes on and on.....and on.
These are some of the REAL problems facing our industry. I just don't think a few "suits" are qualified, or interested in these issues. I'm out.

[mcrit]

Doc, perhaps what we need is a second avenue of approach to this problem. The College most likely will not address those issues that you brought up, so perhaps we should look at a second organization to do that. This second organization would be more of a union (I hesitate to use the term guild becuase it has some Sci-Fi/Fantasy overtones). The union would take care of protecting pilots, and the College would help pilots maintain a professional public image. There are many examples of this approach in other areas. The College of Physicians and Surgeons/The Canadian Medical Association, The Ontario College of Teachers/Ontario Secondary School Teacher's Federation, The College of Nurses/The Nurses Association. I want to make it clear that if pilots want to advance their station in life they could really use both of these organizations.
I understand why some people have reservations about the College, and there is no doubt that if it's implemented badly it could be a very bad thing. I would cite the Ontario College of Teachers as an example. It was implemented with the worst possible political agenda, and continues to be controlled by advocates (people who have never done the job, or any real job for that matter). However, if The College of Pilots is well implemented, it could do quite a bit to improved pilots' public image. It would be a public manifestation of the responsibilities that rest in the cockpit and could provide a strong voice for pilots' concerns in government circles.
The union, on the other hand, would provide a counterbalance to the College. I know that OSSTF certainly played that role with the College of Teachers. The Union would help to prevent any one individual or group within the College from building a fiefdom.
The two pronged attack has worked before; a College to enhance public image and a Union to protect members from employers and the College. I don't see why this wouldn't work for pilots.

[Ogee]

I kind of agreed with Cat when he said that bit about flying being a trade, and I know where he's coming from. However, I do think that there is a widespread acceptance in the public that pilots are professionals. I'm sure that practically all of us strive to act as professionals at least. Yes, we don't have the investment of time that doctors or nurses or teachers have in terms of gaining our rights to practice, and its true that some relatively stupid people have gained and exercised those rights. That said, we do hold human life in our hands once we enter into that practice and for our entire careers. It's also true the same can be said of bus drivers, who also operate pieces of metal powered by petroleum products and whose passengers can and do die if they fail to carry out their duties professionally.

I guess the public has a much greater apprehension of flight than Greyhound, thus the elevated esteem in which they, or pilots wish they, hold us. So I don't argue about the professional designation one bit. In fact, if a group can be formed that will work, I'm sure the words "professional pilots" should be in its name.

"College" is a non-starter as an organizational description. There is no other profession organizing into a "College" in which you can be killed in the practice of that profession. It wasn't a good idea to start with, and some of its proponents on here have poisoned it further by their arrogance in their comments here. Not all, but some.

The problem which this seeks to address is the problem of working conditions for non union pilots in 702 through 704 operations. I'm sorry, but this proposal isn't the way to deal with that. I've suggested above that a different type of voluntary organization offering post graduate accreditation, if you will, could be supported by market forces. I also think there hasn't been anywhere's near enough discussion about Cat's idea of an association of chief pilots.

[Cat Driver]

I also think there hasn't been anywhere's near enough discussion about Cat's idea of an association of chief pilots.

Thank you for bringing that idea up again.

I first came to that conclusion in 1975 when I was successful in going up against both Transport Canada and an airline to force them to abide by federal law.

Having proved in court that the law can be enforced I got the idea of forming a group of chief pilots to support each other in cases where they on their own were unable to ensure safety within the operation they were responsible for.

Unfortunately the fear factor among chief pilots along with the misguided self vision of their power factor made any attempt at forming such an association at that time not feasible.

I very much doubt anything has changed over time.

[flyinthebug]

We talked about the same idea in the 90s Cat and same s*it different pile. Time hasnt changed things one bit from that perspective. Im certain the new generation of CP`s will take a run at it again and all I can say is I wish them luck.

As for professionalism...It`s all in how we as an industry are perceived. As I mentioned in another thread, my Surgeon recently sat with me and told me how they use aviation as a model of professionalism for their industry. I had to hold back my chuckles!! That said, she was quite sincere in what she said and I have to admit that I took great pride in her perception of our industry. If she only knew!

Im still scratching my head on this whole new college. I believe them to be a group of well intentioned people. Im just with the majority in my concern of how the 703/704 sectors will be better off or even a voice in this new college? My last question would be, where did "Colin" go? Wasnt he answering some questions in another thread a couple months ago? Colin, if your reading this, could you please explain how 703/704 will be represented in the new College? Thanks.

DD.. I couldnt find the stats but somewhere around 5800 in 703/704 and unsure of 705/604 but likely similiar around 5000 ish.

[freakonature]

In 2000 there were 24000 CPL and ATPL in Canada. 3500 of those were helicopter. 5500 belonged to a labour association. Since then an average of 2500 new CPL's per yr have been added to those numbers.

[mattedfred]

have any of the detractors contacted the college with their concerns yet?

any response?

would some of you have preferred that the initial operating cost of establishing this college be provided by the vast resources of the 703/704 pilot?

we are truly our own worst enemy as we have a deep seeded distrust of ourselves

[Cat Driver]

we are truly our own worst enemy as we have a deep seeded distrust of ourselves

Since when does asking questions mean we have a deep distrust of ourselves?

Are we to understand that by trusting others who are complete strangers it will instill self trust?

[flyinthebug]

In 2000 there were 24000 CPL and ATPL in Canada. 3500 of those were helicopter. 5500 belonged to a labour association. Since then an average of 2500 new CPL's per yr have been added to those numbers.

Thanks for the clarity. I believe my 703/704 #s were accurate as far as # of working pilots in that sector of aviation.

[yycflyguy]

What about retirements, loss of medical and death over your 10 year period?

[mattedfred]

April 2008 : The founding members of the College of Professional Pilots of Canada.

From left to right :

Colin Bechtel (Air Canada), Peter Thompson (Air Canada), David Coles (Air Canada), Fred Ambs (Skyservice Airlines), Steve Weiher (Westjet), Nick di Cintio (Air Canada Jazz), Nigel Edwards (Skyservice Airlines), Greg Holbrook (Canadian Federal Pilots' Association / Transport Canada)
In this photo: Colin Bechtel, Peter Thompson, David Coles, Fred Ambs, Steve Weiher, Nick di Cintio, Nigel Edwards, Greg Holbrook

Wow quite a broad representation of the industry there.

the picture depicts the founding members and not the BOD or Executive

[Cat Driver]

Someone probably already answered this question but I will ask it again.

In that setting up this college obviously costs money who is funding it in the start up stages?

[freakonature]

yycflyguy, You would be safe using 7.32 pilots per year.

[Lost Lake]

My 2 cents worth. I would love to see some union, organization, association, who would represent the 703/704 industry. It is the stepping stone to the 705's. However, it is such a convoluted, fractioned, estranged, confusing industry, with every operator needing different skill sets. Combined with a hiring pool that is turning into a lake, I believe the odds are slim to none of ever organizing a union, yes that's the word we need to use a UNION, a joining of ideals, etc.

If we can have heads that prevail, who can represent the real needs of the pilot and while understanding the realities of the owner, then it could work. One of the first steps is a need to control the influx of new pilots. Of course, this wil never happen because colleges can't make money without students. If the employment pool (lake) is too large, there will be leaks, even floods.

I wish everyone good luck. Believe me, if you want my help, and I think it will work, I'll be there!

Sorry to be a doubting Thomas. Economics will always prevail in this society.

[Prairie Chicken]

To those who feel the College founders don't know what's happening in the trenches, like some others, I'm sure they didn't get where they are now without any pain. I'd suggest they are at a point in their careers where they have the time, & perhaps money, to do something about the problem whereas those in the trenches are fighting 24/7 for their very survival. Perhaps they are also at a point where they would like to give back to the industry. And as MapleFlag suggests, they are in a position to act without too much fear of retribution from the employer.

Before passing judgement, let's wait to hear all the details. Even then, you can't please all the people all the time.

[GTFA]

As for professionalism...It`s all in how we as an industry are perceived. As I mentioned in another thread, my Surgeon recently sat with me and told me how they use aviation as a model of professionalism for their industry. I had to hold back my chuckles!! That said, she was quite sincere in what she said and I have to admit that I took great pride in her perception of our industry. If she only knew!

The medical profession is taking a serious look at aviation safety principles in order to improve their performance as we do our own. The problem is with the practitioners, not the principles. Sound familiar? The medical industry is still learning to embrace the admission that there will be errors. The next step is to uncover them. Again, same in both industries. We have much to learn from them in organizing a professional association and they have much to learn from us in the threat and error management philosophy. If we wish to be respected as professionals we need to align ourselves with other professionals.

From the British Medical Journal (Mar 2000)

On error management: lessons from aviation
Robert L Helmreich

Pilots and doctors operate in complex environments where teams interact with technology. In both domains, risk varies from low to high with threats com­ing from a variety of sources in the environment. Safety is paramount for both professions, but cost issues can influence the commitment of resources for safety efforts. Aircraft accidents are infrequent, highly visible, and often involve massive loss of life, resulting in exhaustive investigation into causal factors, public reports, and remedial action. Research by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration into aviation accidents has found that 70% involve human error.

In contrast, medical adverse events happen to individual patients and seldom receive national publicity. More importantly, there is no standardised method of investigation, documentation, and dissemination. The US Institute of Medicine estimates that each year between 44 000 and 98 000 people die as a result of medical errors. When error is suspected, litigation and new regulations are threats in both medicine and aviation.

Error results from physiological and psychological limitations of humans. Causes of error include fatigue, workload, and fear as well as cognitive overload, poor interpersonal communications, imperfect information processing, and flawed decision making. In both avia­tion and medicine, teamwork is required, and team error can be defined as action or inaction leading to
deviation from team or organisational intentions. Aviation increasingly uses error management strategies to improve safety. Error management is based on understanding the nature and extent of error, changing the conditions that induce error, determin­ing behaviours that prevent or mitigate error, and training personnel in their use. Though recognising that operating theatres are not cockpits, I describe approaches that may help improve patient safety.

website extra: A full explanation of the threat and error management model, with a case study, appears on the BMJ's website: http://www.bmj.com

Don't sell yourself short.
GTFA

[GTFA]

MapleFlag, these college "directors" are all airline pilots from the segment of the industry that least needs help. They're all employed flying jets for unionized companies. How would that be of ANY use to the average pilot getting it up the Kazoo from companies like Wasaya?? I'll tell you.....SQUAT!

Dear Doc, and those who share this impression,

You obviously don't "get it". This idea of professional status and management of pilots was hatched before most of the "founding Members" pictured. The concept is based on principles of practice and recognition of responsibility. I sincerely believe that no-one who has put ANY amount of effort into this has any personal agenda that does not benefit our industry as a whole...705 included. If a standard of professionalism is not established and recognized by operators, the travelling public and ourselves we will continue in the embarrassing "race to the bottom" for the sake of following our passion to operate aircraft. Lawyers have passion, doctors have passion, nurses have passion as do teachers... Why are we the bottom feeders amongst these highly regarded and remunerated "professionals"?

Your mind is like a parachute.. it doesn't work unless it's OPEN.

GTFA

[Widow]

The subject of an Ombudsman comes up with some regularity. Just do a search and see what's been said ... Search: ombudsman. As snaproll likes to point out, it has even been recommended in the past as the result of Public Inquiry.

[Widow]

Not at all Your post serves as a reminder ... the need for an OMB becomes more and more essential as SMS takes hold.

[GTFA]

Do Doctors have an ombudsman, lawyers, dentists etc?

I think that considering the use of an ombudsman or anything short of full professional status and the powers that go with it undermines the intent of this movement. Go for full professional status and start setting the rates and standard. Otherwise just form a union and get on with that.

Don't sell yourself short.
GTFA

[Widow]

Actually, yes ... provincial ombudspersons DO have authority to investigate Institutions as defined in the College and Institute Acts. So while the College/Institute has the authority to investigate the doctor/lawyer/etc., the ombudsperson can investigate complaints about the College/Institute's investigation.

I don't think espousing the use of an Ombudsperson undermines the intent of the College at all. Rather, it would help provide for ALL persons in the industry, not just pilots.

[yycflyguy]

yycflyguy, You would be safe using 7.32 pilots per year.

No me understand. 7.32 pilots per year for retirements, deaths, loss of medical etc. equals 73 pilots over 10 years. At AC alone, that is only 6 or 7 months of retirements. What stat are you quoting?

[flyinthebug]

delete (would have been a hi-jack) so delete!

[freakonature]

yycflyguy, The Human Resource Study of Commercial Pilots in Canada.

[CD]

Speaking of CAMC...

ASL 4/2009 - The CAMC Leads Update of the Human Resource Study of Commercial Pilots in Canada

The Update of the Human Resource Study of the Commercial Pilot in Canada will provide the researched data that will then be used to develop a comprehensive picture of Canada’s commercial pilot occupation, describing both current conditions and likely developments in the future at the 5, 10, and 15 year marks. This research will also provide the foundation for the development of professional pilot occupational standards.

The aviation transportation industry includes general aviation, commercial air carriers, rotorcraft operations; suppliers and maintenance repair and overhaul companies. Flight crews for the different operations require a diverse set of experience, skills and knowledge. The understanding of the human resources challenges to this sector is important to the aviation transportation community. Canada also has an important flight training industry that needs to understand the future commercial pilot knowledge and skill requirements in order to produce the properly trained personnel.

Update of the Human Resource Study of the Commercial Pilot in Canada