New TA reached!

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Gentle Giant
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Gentle Giant »

rudder wrote:
It's a shame that the TC contract didn't go to one of the Canadian operators that use foreign pilots for seasonal work so that there wouldn't have to be some inane debate about 'travel policy' for Canadian pilots as the foreign pilots who were performing Canadian jobs would have confirmed tickets back and forth to the foreign countries that they live in when they are not taking jobs away from Canadian pilots. :shock:

As for D/H, the Jazz crews travel under similar terms as Transat and Canjet crews on AC flights (corporate travel rates). I too am shocked that AC accepts $$ to fill seats from companies that AC competes with. :oops:

AC has convinced ACPA and apparently many AC pilots that a part time gig for 6 aircraft is the cause of all of its competitive woes. Must be true and WJ is not even on the radar screen. Or perhaps revisiting the reciprocal jump seat agreement with WJ is also an area that would improve the bottom line at AC? Perhaps if AC can make it more difficult for WJ pilots to get to work, then WJ will fold? :smt014

I certainly hope that more important topics than this are the subject matter at the MEC meeting today. :supz:

1.) The use of foreign pilots is a completely different discussion - I would bet that we would agree 100% on that topic.

2.) You do understand the difference between commuters and D/H right? Seems like you are using the two terms at random.

3.) Of course there are more important things going on at the MEC meeting - this is just a place for people like you and I to fling anonymous insults at each other.
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Gentle Giant
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Gentle Giant »

Localizer wrote: Air Canada does not subsidize Jazz in the Thomas Cook venture ..
Well, not by choice, obviously.
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Localizer
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Localizer »

Gentle Giant wrote:Well, thanks. I had never seen that before. How many aircraft at Jazz now?
125 as of today .. it will be back up to 133 after the delivery of the Q400, but 8 (RJ's) will be considered swing.
Stu Pidasso wrote:Unfortunately that ship has long sailed. Mainline Commuters are reporting that they are getting constantly refused the jumpseat on Jazz, with the "canned" excuse of "weight and balance."

One guy got tossed out of the BACK of an RJ with 12 open seats. Captain claiming "weight and balance."

It's getting a bit old, boys.

The existing Pass Priorities "were" days away from getting changed. Now that this T/A has been scrapped, tough to tell what will happen.
Its safe to say its going both ways. There are lots of Jazz commuters feeling the same pain. All we can do is hope that some people will just grow up and be mature adults ... instead of babies in need of a pacifier.
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mbav8r
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by mbav8r »

To respond to this issue, almost gives credence to it. In the interest of clarity, the pilots who fly the 57 work for, wait for it, JAZZ. They are paid from Jazz, their pension is from Jazz, their benefits are from Jazz. They do not work for Thomas Cook. In fact, their position is 57/RJ and some are now back in training to transition back to the RJ.
The D/H issue is a non-issue, they are full fare passengers, and accumulating areoplan points, I believe some even attained super elite status.
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rudder
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by rudder »

Stu Pidasso wrote:I would like to think of our two groups, Jazz and AirCanada, as one big family. There is no need for hard-feelings. Who benefits from that?
I make sure our operations run smoothly.... so that yours runs smoothly too.


Unfortunately that ship has long sailed. Mainline Commuters are reporting that they are getting constantly refused the jumpseat on Jazz, with the "canned" excuse of "weight and balance."

One guy got tossed out of the BACK of an RJ with 12 open seats. Captain claiming "weight and balance."

It's getting a bit old, boys.

The existing Pass Priorities "were" days away from getting changed. Now that this T/A has been scrapped, tough to tell what will happen?
This has been covered before. Jazz has some a$$holes and AC has some a$$holes. That will likely never change.

If pass priorities change, it will likely be more difficult for both groups to commute when relying on the J/S courtesy. Many pilots from both groups have already discovered that travel on WJ and Porter is much more pleasant and cost effective anyway.
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Localizer
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Localizer »

Gentle Giant wrote:
Localizer wrote:Air Canada does not subsidize Jazz in the Thomas Cook venture ..

Well, not by choice, obviously.
So you consider a separate company using its earned revenue to start a new venture subsidizing? I don't believe "subsidizing" is the right word. Another good example of why pilots should not be involved in business.
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rudder
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by rudder »

Localizer wrote:
Gentle Giant wrote:
Localizer wrote:Air Canada does not subsidize Jazz in the Thomas Cook venture ..

Well, not by choice, obviously.
So you consider a separate company using its earned revenue to start a new venture subsidizing? I don't believe "subsidizing" is the right word. Another good example of why pilots should not be involved in business.
Calin has convinced ACPA and the AC pilots that AC is being screwed in the Jazz CPA deal. Interesting. But who negotiated and signed the last CPA deal with Jazz on behalf of AC? Calin.

Smoke and mirrors. And pilots buy it.
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mbav8r
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by mbav8r »

Unfortunately that ship has long sailed. Mainline Commuters are reporting that they are getting constantly refused the jumpseat on Jazz, with the "canned" excuse of "weight and balance."

One guy got tossed out of the BACK of an RJ with 12 open seats. Captain claiming "weight and balance."
Stu,
Sorry to hear that, with 12 open seats a commuter was off loaded. I can only imagine the reason for this, it may be a tit for tat situation. I know a Captain who has a list of who had denied him the jump, and the people(person) on the list will be denied for having denied him, yes he laughed when he said there was only one name on the list. He won't deny anyone other than this one person. Myself having been denied, I still go out of my way to make sure any commuter gets on, I wouldn't recognize the ones who've denied me anyway.
The weight and balance of a full RJ, is a very different story, I was denied the Jump last week from a Jazz RJ. Load control said no, it would've required 500 lbs of ballast and a delay in order to put me in the jump. I've been there, as the pilot having to deny someone, it sucks. We have had load control say no, but the Captain overroad them and loaded the ballast anyway, just depends on the guy. It also seems to be happening quite abit lately, full a/c, light bag count, the RJ is bad for that.
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teacher
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by teacher »

I've had to deny commuters as well. Nothing personal but even on short flights with extra gas and lotsa bags you're SOL on the dash. I'm not gonna bump bags or pax for commuters even though I was asked to do it once.
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Localizer
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Localizer »

I'm sure we've all been denied the jump seat .. atleast once. Its nothing to get upset about .. as long as you leave yourself a couple flights when travelling to work. (which you should be doing if flights are that full) Never count on the jump seat, if it works out, great!

There is a fellow on my commute (AC Capt .. Jazz flight), that just feels he should always have a seat regardless. He honestly feels that a pax should be removed so he can get to work. He never leaves himself an extra flight .. instead takes the flight that arrives 10 min before his check-in. If he doesn't get on the flight .. for whatever reason .. everyone else is the idiot. The agents, the ramp guys, the Jazz pilots, the airplane, the airport authority are all idiots and that's why he can't get to work.

Hard to feel bad for that sorta person .. yet I can see him in the crew room later on telling his comrades about how he didn't get to work on time because of those nasty Jazz pilots.

Both groups have there "special" people ..
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KAG
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by KAG »

I've seen YUL based pilots deny jump to fellow Jazz pilots citing W&B on a semi loaded 705. There are dinks in all walks of life.
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yycflyguy
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by yycflyguy »

Geez you guys. You took a thread on a TA between Air Canada and ACPA and managed to devolve it into a Jazz vs ACPA thing. Can we focus on the bigger picture please? Jumpseat PRIVILEGE (note that it's a privilege not a right) and C2 passes are your big concern?? And we wonder why there is a steady decline in the WAWCON for the entire industry.
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mbav8r
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by mbav8r »

Pardon? our concern? WTF over? We are not the ones trying to change our pass prority to a lower priority.
Next, WAWCON, yes please do get a great contract, which improves your WAWCON, but get it on your own merits and not to the detriment of others. The debate in this thread has mostly been about how certain items in your TA, will lead to the total decline of WAWCON, in the long run.
Thankfully, you've managed to quash it, for now. Hopefully you'll see, as a group, that selling out Jazz, for your short term gain, will have lasting effects in many, many ways.
As someone has pointed out, the CPA seems to be a one way street and holds us to only you. It seems that when the CPA was renegotiated, our top brass, must have figured ACPA would never allow another Tier 2 provider. Otherwise, I would think they would have incorporated a proviso for a one for one, the other way around. Every aircraft for another tier 2, is one for which we can provide CPA services to another, for no penalty on our AC CPA. Fair's fair.
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yycflyguy
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by yycflyguy »

mbav8r wrote:Pardon? our concern? WTF over? We are not the ones trying to change our pass prority to a lower priority.
Next, WAWCON, yes please do get a great contract, which improves your WAWCON, but get it on your own merits and not to the detriment of others. The debate in this thread has mostly been about how certain items in your TA, will lead to the total decline of WAWCON, in the long run.
Thankfully, you've managed to quash it, for now. Hopefully you'll see, as a group, that selling out Jazz, for your short term gain, will have lasting effects in many, many ways.
As someone has pointed out, the CPA seems to be a one way street and holds us to only you. It seems that when the CPA was renegotiated, our top brass, must have figured ACPA would never allow another Tier 2 provider. Otherwise, I would think they would have incorporated a proviso for a one for one, the other way around. Every aircraft for another tier 2, is one for which we can provide CPA services to another, for no penalty on our AC CPA. Fair's fair.
Neither are we. There is no mention of pass priority in this TA so get over it.

Like I said, try to see the big picture instead of your personal agenda.
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mbav8r
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by mbav8r »

Okay so look at the big picture, you responded to my first sentence about pass travel. What about the rest.
Is it okay with you, that ACPA allow AC to diversify away from Jazz, but not the other way around?
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fly4ever
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by fly4ever »

:roll:
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mbav8r
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by mbav8r »

:roll: back at yah
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LisaS
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by LisaS »

Think you guys need a little break! :smt040

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29chev
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by 29chev »

Thanks a lot LisaS
after watching that now I feel suicidal :rolleyes:

just another low point in AC history :roll:
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What About Me?
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by What About Me? »

Good one Lisa :smt008

Another one who took the big $$$ from Air Canada....and probably never flys commercial! :mrgreen:
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yycflyguy
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by yycflyguy »

mbav8r wrote:Okay so look at the big picture, you responded to my first sentence about pass travel. What about the rest.
Is it okay with you, that ACPA allow AC to diversify away from Jazz, but not the other way around?
Weren't you the same guy on here telling everyone that it was ok for Jazz to go outside of the CPA to secure "new" flying with the 757's but now don't like the idea of having competition that can compete without infrastructure overhead and fuel paid for? Weren't you the one during your contract negots saying that this was about your future? Guess what, this is now about ACPA pilots' future.

Like I said. This TA aint about you. This TA aint about Jazz and this TA aint about the past between the 2 groups. I am just a line pilot with one vote. I will exercise it appropriately.

This TA is Air Canada pilots chance at reversing a disturbing trend in the entire industry.

Thinking about what is or isn't in it for Jazz is the least of our worries.
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cheeky cough
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by cheeky cough »

Celine brings back memories for me, I was deadheading back
after a pairing with Jazz , and happened to watch this music
video. It was on an Air Canada flight and I was recently
accepted by Air Canada to join their ranks. Years of study
and work experience paid off, as well as some paid off interviewers.
I got a bit of a tear in my eye as ol' horse face sung this song,
( she does have a great voice!!) , as I took my headset off, I
immediately heard two old hag flight attendants at the back
of the aircraft complaining over god knows what ruining my moment.
Thanks a lot b$tc$e@ .
My point being , aviation is serious business,take the high road.
We all know pilots that have died in the line of duty.
Treat other pilots with professional respect.
No other employee knows the sh?$ you went through to become
a pilot.
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chatman
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by chatman »

AC is about due for a new motivational song for the employees.

Maybe this one instead
The Simpsons - Union Strike Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj5OT3z1VGA
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mbav8r
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by mbav8r »

This TA is Air Canada pilots chance at reversing a disturbing trend in the entire industry.
yycflyguy,
Do you see the irony in your statement? A TA with unlimited tier 2 providers and a LCC, thats your idea of reversing a disturbing trend? Silly me, I thought that was the disturbing part.
Yes, the 57 flying is outside the CPA, but you don't see the value of Jazz doing the work verses Westjet or Transat or Canjet or worse yet, a new LCC. Thomas Cook was coming whether we did it or not, it's not something we're doing to threaten AC nor is it bad for the industry. The wages are based on industry standard and we are a unionized work group. What you're advocating, is definitely bad for the industry.
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Localizer
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Re: New TA reached!

Post by Localizer »

mbav8r wrote:Do you see the irony in your statement? A TA with unlimited tier 2 providers and a LCC, thats your idea of reversing a disturbing trend? Silly me, I thought that was the disturbing part.
Respectfully mbav8r, they squashed the TA .. and I don't remember reading any post from yycflyguy that favoured the last TA. Actually .. I think the majority or AC posters were against this TA.

I have faith in the pilots at Air Canada ... I don't have faith in their representation since they tried to hoodwink their own pilots.
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