Sunwing/Westjet

[ads-b]

Sunwing wasn’t swoop. We weren’t part of WJ prior to being bought. Silly to think same result.

Anyway it’s done. Let’s move forward.

[elite]

so not a swoop 2.0 and another massive alpa over promise, under deliver.

Indeed, especially considering ALPA supposedly charged extra dues!

[truecolours]

Is it too late to get them to bring unifor over with them?

[Handover]

Is it too late to get them to bring unifor over with them?

*paragraph 42 on page 19 of "WestJet_Sunwing_IPSL_October_30_2024_AWARD.pdf".

However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot.

It might have been better for everyone. Sunwing pilots lost out big time both in terms of QOL and renumeration in this deal. There is a feeling of a death in the family currently at sunwing. Yeah, it is what it is

[Nauclerus]

From the award ...

"1-1.5. The Companies agree to provide the same protections to Sunwing Pilots as are entitled to
WestJet Pilots under Section 1-2.04(e) of WestJet CA2, with the exception that Sunwing’s
Quebec City Base will close and all Sunwing Pilots at Quebec City Base will be assigned
to WestJet’s Montreal Base."

How many pilots are in the Quebec City base ?

Will this merger be a windfall gain for Air Transat ? I can't imagine that an Anglo Calgary based company will be able to maintain a market presence in the provice of Quebec. You think they would have learned their lesson the last time they tried to break into this market. My guess is that in 5 years Westjet once again be gone from Montreal and Quebec City and Air Transat or another new Franco Quebec company (Sunwing 2 ?) will be operating all these ex Sunwing routes.

[Canadaflyer46]

Is it too late to get them to bring unifor over with them?

*paragraph 42 on page 19 of "WestJet_Sunwing_IPSL_October_30_2024_AWARD.pdf".

However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot.

It might have been better for everyone. Sunwing pilots lost out big time both in terms of QOL and renumeration in this deal. There is a feeling of a death in the family currently at sunwing. Yeah, it is what it is

I don’t see how. Sunwing pilots had windfall gains over WJ pilots in terms of seniority. The WJ pilots got absolutely screwed over, although admittedly our own merger committee sold us out in their obsession to look fair and reasonable. I commend the Sunwing MC for fighting for their pilots hard.

[Handover]

Is it too late to get them to bring unifor over with them?

*paragraph 42 on page 19 of "WestJet_Sunwing_IPSL_October_30_2024_AWARD.pdf".

However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot.

It might have been better for everyone. Sunwing pilots lost out big time both in terms of QOL and renumeration in this deal. There is a feeling of a death in the family currently at sunwing. Yeah, it is what it is

I don’t see how. Sunwing pilots had windfall gains over WJ pilots in terms of seniority. The WJ pilots got absolutely screwed over, although admittedly our own merger committee sold us out in their obsession to look fair and reasonable. I commend the Sunwing MC for fighting for their pilots hard.

You don't see how? I don't care about seniority. Doesn't mean a thing. We will be earning less and working more. You see that right?

[Canadaflyer46]

*paragraph 42 on page 19 of "WestJet_Sunwing_IPSL_October_30_2024_AWARD.pdf".

However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot.

It might have been better for everyone. Sunwing pilots lost out big time both in terms of QOL and renumeration in this deal. There is a feeling of a death in the family currently at sunwing. Yeah, it is what it is

I don’t see how. Sunwing pilots had windfall gains over WJ pilots in terms of seniority. The WJ pilots got absolutely screwed over, although admittedly our own merger committee sold us out in their obsession to look fair and reasonable. I commend the Sunwing MC for fighting for their pilots hard.

You don't see how? I don't care about seniority. Doesn't mean a thing. We will be earning less and working more. You see that right?

That was a given as soon as the merger was announced. WJ runs things lean and works guys hard. I thought we were talking about the arbitration award/list here. My mistake. I agree with you about lifestyle/pay losses.

[MaxAuto]

From the award ...

"1-1.5. The Companies agree to provide the same protections to Sunwing Pilots as are entitled to
WestJet Pilots under Section 1-2.04(e) of WestJet CA2, with the exception that Sunwing’s
Quebec City Base will close and all Sunwing Pilots at Quebec City Base will be assigned
to WestJet’s Montreal Base."

How many pilots are in the Quebec City base ?

Will this merger be a windfall gain for Air Transat ? I can't imagine that an Anglo Calgary based company will be able to maintain a market presence in the provice of Quebec. You think they would have learned their lesson the last time they tried to break into this market. My guess is that in 5 years Westjet once again be gone from Montreal and Quebec City and Air Transat or another new Franco Quebec company (Sunwing 2 ?) will be operating all these ex Sunwing routes.

Sunwing Airlines maybe gone, but Sunwing Group and all of its Resorts along with Nexus Tours will still exist under Sunwing Group.

Sunwing Vacation, Sell Off Vacations, and Signature Vacation and now WestJet Vacations (WestJet Vacations Quebec) will all fall under parent company WestJet. It will still managed by Sunwing Group if I understand it correctly through past town halls when this merger talk began two years ago. Quebecers will still be able to buy Sunwing Vacations packages on the Sunwing platforms. WestJet Airlines will now provide the lift. So Quebec is not losing Sunwing.

I think this will hurt Air Transat once it gets going.

[rudder]

Is it too late to get them to bring unifor over with them?

*paragraph 42 on page 19 of "WestJet_Sunwing_IPSL_October_30_2024_AWARD.pdf".

However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot.

It might have been better for everyone. Sunwing pilots lost out big time both in terms of QOL and renumeration in this deal. There is a feeling of a death in the family currently at sunwing. Yeah, it is what it is

If you have to count overtime to get to ‘highest’ T4 earnings, that is not normally a valid comparison (apples vs apples).

Regardless, it is done. Now the parties can just move on. Being bitter is a choice, not a necessity. Most of the die was cast the day that the SWG owners sold to WJ.

[Joeschumer]

Windfall gains? There were no windfall gains made by anybody in this merger, If you look into the history of all mergers in the past 30 years in the US and Canada, apart from the last DOH merger 30 years ago, the younger company ALWAYS “gains” on DOH.

In this specific scenario with WJ and SWG, if you look at everybody’s seniority %, all WJ pilots gain and all SWG pilots lose relative seniority. Which at the end of the day is your seniority relative to your group.

A DOH merger in this case would be an absolute windfall gain for WJ pilots and therefore the arbitrator awarded as he did.

DOH mergers are not the norm despite many pilots believing so due to just a pure lack in understanding of how mergers in history have played out.

Is it too late to get them to bring unifor over with them?

*paragraph 42 on page 19 of "WestJet_Sunwing_IPSL_October_30_2024_AWARD.pdf".

However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot.

It might have been better for everyone. Sunwing pilots lost out big time both in terms of QOL and renumeration in this deal. There is a feeling of a death in the family currently at sunwing. Yeah, it is what it is

I don’t see how. Sunwing pilots had windfall gains over WJ pilots in terms of seniority. The WJ pilots got absolutely screwed over, although admittedly our own merger committee sold us out in their obsession to look fair and reasonable. I commend the Sunwing MC for fighting for their pilots hard.

[ant_321]

Windfall gains? There were no windfall gains made by anybody in this merger, If you look into the history of all mergers in the past 30 years in the US and Canada, apart from the last DOH merger 30 years ago, the younger company ALWAYS “gains” on DOH.

In this specific scenario with WJ and SWG, if you look at everybody’s seniority %, all WJ pilots gain and all SWG pilots lose relative seniority. Which at the end of the day is your seniority relative to your group.

A DOH merger in this case would be an absolute windfall gain for WJ pilots and therefore the arbitrator awarded as he did.

DOH mergers are not the norm despite many pilots believing so due to just a pure lack in understanding of how mergers in history have played out.

*paragraph 42 on page 19 of "WestJet_Sunwing_IPSL_October_30_2024_AWARD.pdf".

However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot.

It might have been better for everyone. Sunwing pilots lost out big time both in terms of QOL and renumeration in this deal. There is a feeling of a death in the family currently at sunwing. Yeah, it is what it is

I don’t see how. Sunwing pilots had windfall gains over WJ pilots in terms of seniority. The WJ pilots got absolutely screwed over, although admittedly our own merger committee sold us out in their obsession to look fair and reasonable. I commend the Sunwing MC for fighting for their pilots hard.

That’s a great way of putting it. Personally I will “gain” about 1 year over DOH but I am losing 12% on my current relative seniority.

[daedalusx]

Who's making more money ?
The guy who's making 120K/yr but works 6-8 days per month, or the guy making 160K/year but works 14-16 days per month ?
Mind you the guy making 120K can easily make 160K with OT and still work less than 16 days a month.

Pretty sure 90%+ of the Sunwing flight crews would have much rather stay separate ...

[nohojob]

Pretty sure 90%+ of the Sunwing flight crews would have much rather stay separate ...
[/quote]

indeed !

[Maritimer]

Who's making more money ?
The guy who's making 120K/yr but works 6-8 days per month, or the guy making 160K/year but works 14-16 days per month ?
Mind you the guy making 120K can easily make 160K with OT and still work less than 16 days a month.

Pretty sure 90%+ of the Sunwing flight crews would have much rather stay separate ...

Is that 120K/year pre or post your +30% windfall after you accepted a TA that was 30% below WJ’s CA1?

So now you get a +30% windfall immediately after the intent to purchase, plus 15.5% increase to bring you up to WJ’s CA2 and then likely LOS pay.

Yeah I can see how that has been so awful for you. I’m sure you much rather prefer to go back to ~90K/year pre-purchase announcement just to get your 6-8 days/month.

This award doesn’t affect me much but let’s be realistic of the truths.

[Handover]

Who's making more money ?
The guy who's making 120K/yr but works 6-8 days per month, or the guy making 160K/year but works 14-16 days per month ?
Mind you the guy making 120K can easily make 160K with OT and still work less than 16 days a month.

Pretty sure 90%+ of the Sunwing flight crews would have much rather stay separate ...

Is that 120K/year pre or post your +30% windfall after you accepted a TA that was 30% below WJ’s CA1?

So now you get a +30% windfall immediately after the intent to purchase, plus 15.5% increase to bring you up to WJ’s CA2 and then likely LOS pay.

Yeah I can see how that has been so awful for you. I’m sure you much rather prefer to go back to ~90K/year pre-purchase announcement just to get your 6-8 days/month.

This award doesn’t affect me much but let’s be realistic of the truths.

the truth is realistic. did you read what the award read? I don't know how it can be clearer. The average sunwing pilot earns more (and works less) than the average wja pilots.

"However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot"

I'm a reasonably jr FO, and I will be taking a pay cut even with hardly taking any overtime. We were pulling in an extra 30-50k in non taxable perdiems a year. My average month is 8-10 days work with no reserve

....but let’s be realistic of the truths.

[freighter27]

It’s really a shock that only about 6-10 % of words actually make up such a small percentage of commutation. Things like tone of voice or actual body language read so much into this.

This is off topic, but such a widespread held belief that it needs to be addressed. This whole '90% of communication is non verbal' that instructors love to bring up in CRM courses is just ridiculously false for that application. All that 'research' stems back to 1 scientific paper, that basically tried to figure out how people perceive emotions based on the subject speaking one word. Subjects were shown the picture of a man/woman and were asked to identify the emotion. Then they were asked to do the same based on audio recordings of the man/woman saying one word. Based on this particular test scenario, the results based on pictures were more accurate, eventually incorrecty or incompletely leading to the conclusion that 90% of communication is non verbal.

More explanation and links to source material: https://blog.donders.ru.nl/?p=12172&lang=en

Carry on though.

And even more into the weeds, you aren't talking about the same thing...
CaptDukeNukem is clearly discussing "commutation" something to do with judicial sentences, or maybe electrical engineering...

[Maritimer]

Who's making more money ?
The guy who's making 120K/yr but works 6-8 days per month, or the guy making 160K/year but works 14-16 days per month ?
Mind you the guy making 120K can easily make 160K with OT and still work less than 16 days a month.

Pretty sure 90%+ of the Sunwing flight crews would have much rather stay separate ...

Is that 120K/year pre or post your +30% windfall after you accepted a TA that was 30% below WJ’s CA1?

So now you get a +30% windfall immediately after the intent to purchase, plus 15.5% increase to bring you up to WJ’s CA2 and then likely LOS pay.

Yeah I can see how that has been so awful for you. I’m sure you much rather prefer to go back to ~90K/year pre-purchase announcement just to get your 6-8 days/month.

This award doesn’t affect me much but let’s be realistic of the truths.

the truth is realistic. did you read what the award read? I don't know how it can be clearer. The average sunwing pilot earns more (and works less) than the average wja pilots.

"However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot"

I'm a reasonably jr FO, and I will be taking a pay cut even with hardly taking any overtime. We were pulling in an extra 30-50k in non taxable perdiems a year. My average month is 8-10 days work with no reserve

....but let’s be realistic of the truths.

Yes, and remind me again how you got those pay rates? Subtract 30% and tell me who is higher paid.

Per diem isn’t salary.

The years of service point is due to pilots upgrading at a lower YOS than those at WJ.

The highest paid pilot isn’t a SWG pilot working 6-8 days per month. It is someone working a ton of OT, which just isn’t something some folks want to do.

[Handover]

Is that 120K/year pre or post your +30% windfall after you accepted a TA that was 30% below WJ’s CA1?

So now you get a +30% windfall immediately after the intent to purchase, plus 15.5% increase to bring you up to WJ’s CA2 and then likely LOS pay.

Yeah I can see how that has been so awful for you. I’m sure you much rather prefer to go back to ~90K/year pre-purchase announcement just to get your 6-8 days/month.

This award doesn’t affect me much but let’s be realistic of the truths.

the truth is realistic. did you read what the award read? I don't know how it can be clearer. The average sunwing pilot earns more (and works less) than the average wja pilots.

"However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot"

I'm a reasonably jr FO, and I will be taking a pay cut even with hardly taking any overtime. We were pulling in an extra 30-50k in non taxable perdiems a year. My average month is 8-10 days work with no reserve

....but let’s be realistic of the truths.

Yes, and remind me again how you got those pay rates? Subtract 30% and tell me who is higher paid.

Per diem isn’t salary.

The years of service point is due to pilots upgrading at a lower YOS than those at WJ.

The highest paid pilot isn’t a SWG pilot working 6-8 days per month. It is someone working a ton of OT, which just isn’t something some folks want to do.

again.....
"However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet

you are reading the whole thing aren't you? and feel free to argue with my wife on per diem isn't salary. Still appears in our bank account. And again, I probably did 5 days of overtime last year. hardly a ton of OT. What appears in our bank account is my qualifier, it may not be yours. you could be paid $1000 an hour for all I care, but if your employer deducts 900, does that 1000 really mean anything?

[Canpilot7]

The 30% is moot. Sunwing would have negotiated their new deal. They were making more per hour, then WestJet got their deal and got more, then Sunwing would have negotiated WestJet rates again. Just to keep things honest here.

[cdnavater]

Is that 120K/year pre or post your +30% windfall after you accepted a TA that was 30% below WJ’s CA1?

So now you get a +30% windfall immediately after the intent to purchase, plus 15.5% increase to bring you up to WJ’s CA2 and then likely LOS pay.

Yeah I can see how that has been so awful for you. I’m sure you much rather prefer to go back to ~90K/year pre-purchase announcement just to get your 6-8 days/month.

This award doesn’t affect me much but let’s be realistic of the truths.

the truth is realistic. did you read what the award read? I don't know how it can be clearer. The average sunwing pilot earns more (and works less) than the average wja pilots.

"However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot"

I'm a reasonably jr FO, and I will be taking a pay cut even with hardly taking any overtime. We were pulling in an extra 30-50k in non taxable perdiems a year. My average month is 8-10 days work with no reserve

....but let’s be realistic of the truths.

Yes, and remind me again how you got those pay rates? Subtract 30% and tell me who is higher paid.

Per diem isn’t salary.

The years of service point is due to pilots upgrading at a lower YOS than those at WJ.

The highest paid pilot isn’t a SWG pilot working 6-8 days per month. It is someone working a ton of OT, which just isn’t something some folks want to do.

So, to recap, Sunwing pilots got a big raise to bring the pay up to Westjet CA1 last year, then worked a ton of OT and the arbitrator used this a justification!
I do recall reading that the benefit of quicker upgrades at Sunwing was offset by the YOS at upgrade and higher pay at WJ, also mentioned was the quicker upgrade was mostly due to a high turnover and not growth.

[Maritimer]

The 30% is moot. Sunwing would have negotiated their new deal. They were making more per hour, then WestJet got their deal and got more, then Sunwing would have negotiated WestJet rates again. Just to keep things honest here.

This is not true. SW voted in their TA at 30% less than WJ 3 years after WJ was on CA1. It wasn’t until the intent to purchase was announced and then SW filed their ULP against the corp for bargaining in bad faith and was awarded a WJ CA1 rates.

There was no leap frogging going on as you suggested.

[Maritimer]

the truth is realistic. did you read what the award read? I don't know how it can be clearer. The average sunwing pilot earns more (and works less) than the average wja pilots.

"However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot"

I'm a reasonably jr FO, and I will be taking a pay cut even with hardly taking any overtime. We were pulling in an extra 30-50k in non taxable perdiems a year. My average month is 8-10 days work with no reserve

....but let’s be realistic of the truths.

Yes, and remind me again how you got those pay rates? Subtract 30% and tell me who is higher paid.

Per diem isn’t salary.

The years of service point is due to pilots upgrading at a lower YOS than those at WJ.

The highest paid pilot isn’t a SWG pilot working 6-8 days per month. It is someone working a ton of OT, which just isn’t something some folks want to do.

again.....
"However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet

you are reading the whole thing aren't you? and feel free to argue with my wife on per diem isn't salary. Still appears in our bank account. And again, I probably did 5 days of overtime last year. hardly a ton of OT. What appears in our bank account is my qualifier, it may not be yours. you could be paid $1000 an hour for all I care, but if your employer deducts 900, does that 1000 really mean anything?

Per diem is not salary. Yes it appears in your bank account, just like how the money it is intended to replace leaves your bank account. Per diem is intended to be an offset, not a gain. Do you fast on your layovers?

I’m not looking to get into an argument of who makes what, I just don’t want you to forget how you got there in the first place when you (not you personally) start saying things like “we wish we were staying separate”. That makes you sound like it want to have your cake and eat it too. The two go hand in hand. No one is stopping anyone from looking for that 6-8 day per month job at 45% less earnings.

[Handover]

Per diem is not salary. Yes it appears in your bank account, just like how the money it is intended to replace leaves your bank account. Per diem is intended to be an offset, not a gain. Do you fast on your layovers with all of your money you claim to earn?

We get meals in the cockpit and have access to free buffets during layovers, so there’s no need to worry about fasting. Per diems cover the deployments. Normally, we’d be at home, but instead, we had paid accommodations, a rental car, and an additional $5,000 to $10,000 a month in per diems to cover food we’d already be paying for with our salary if we were back home.

I’m not sure you fully understand how things worked at Sunwing. I’ve worked in the Sandpit and had past roles with companies like WestJet. Sunwing offered one of the best setups I’ve seen for balancing life and income. I know what it’s like at a company like WestJet, but I’m not sure many of you know what it’s like to work at a company like Sunwing.

Anyway, enough of that—rest assured, you’re not talking to a novice on the subject.

[ant_321]

Handover is referring to deployment allocation, not per diem. Maritimer is leaving out the fact that CBA 4 was negotiated during the pandemic when the airline was shuttered. There wasn’t exactly much leverage in negotiating when all the pilots were laid off. Sunwing pilots were given the Westjet payscale + a couple percent in an agreement to drop a bargaining in bad faith claim when it became obvious that Sunwing was in talks with Westjet to sell the airline before COVID-19 and it wasn’t disclosed during the contract negotiations.