New TA reached!

[Fanblade]

What's sad is that CR is still going ahead with plans of unlimited feeder ops and a low cost start up even though there is a clear lack of agreement among its employees/pilots with no signed agreement. I think it just shows what kind of respect he has towards his workers. Its great to see him sending us emails and calling us "team" member but this is reality. I am glad to see things are finally changing but is it too late? Seems to me the ball is already rolling.

I agree .. I find it troubling that no delay's have been posted to the Sky Regional operation (since it starts May 1), and no contract has been agreed upon. Does anyone remember if the let ACPA gave on Sky Regional expired in February or not?

Maybe CR thinks he can get away with whatever he wants since the ACPA MEC seems to be in a tight spin .. or he just doesn't care about contracts anymore.

Loc,

This issue isn't one being payed much attention to. It is lost in all the noise. Very little or almost no discussion happens here about Jazz. Unlike what I hear from friends at Jazz, about AC pilots. Your not on the radar for most. Particularly now.

Just being honest. Don't shoot.

I suspect ACPA will grieve it if the latest attempt at a quick TA2 doesn't play out.

I have a hunch it will. We will see.

The MEC sent the Negots com back in.

[Localizer]

Loc,

This issue isn't one being payed much attention to. It is lost in all the noise. Very little or almost no discussion happens here about Jazz. Unlike what I hear from friends at Jazz, about AC pilots. Your not on the radar for most. Particularly now.

Just being honest. Don't shoot.

I suspect ACPA will grieve it if the latest attempt at a quick TA2 doesn't play out.

I have a hunch it will. We will see.

The MEC sent the Negots com back in.

My pistol is holstered .. for now. I'm not trying to make any arguments about Jazz vs AC. What I was getting at was leverage, if the operation is starting before a contract is signed doesn't that remove some of the leverage ACPA has been trying to gain hold of? Sure it could go to court and take ... months, years depending on the games the corporation wants to play. I would think putting up a road block now on the Sky Regional operation would move CR's hand a little faster in getting a good, fair contract .. for ALL your members.

I'm sorry to hear your sending the same negotiation committee back in on your behalf. I would have thought with the last pile of poo poo they brought back some house cleaning would have taken place.

Further to your comments about Jazz not being on the scope, I don't believe AC pilots are typically on the Jazz scope, but this recent round of bargaining at AC has the potential for a lot of impact at Jazz which is why you've come to the forefront of our minds. If it was the other way around and your livelihood was in question, then i'm sure Jazz would be the talk of the crew room.

I hope your negotiation committee can do a better job the second time around.

Cheers. Loc

[Fanblade]

Localizer,

The MEC (7 for-5 against) is still pushing their agenda regardless of how the membership has reacted. They claim radicals have exaggerated the situation. That fair discourse didn't happen. So they sent the NC back in to talk about a few issues.

This is my expectation. If the recalls take place before we have a ratified deal, this round of bargaining will start over from scratch.

10 days from now the MEC chair recall will be decided as the vote starts today. But of course he doesn't vote at the MEC level except to break a tie. 3 other recalls are in process for the MEC for those who have pushed this TA. The petitions for these individuals has not been vetted and the 10 day vote has not yet started. You might wonder why only 3? Two bases representing 4 votes are not cooperating with the recall. 3 votes come from one base. That base seems to circle the wagons around their leadership. Always. A union within a union sort of speak. This blue red thing is still here. Well before my time, but alive and well.

So the MEC, and those pushing its current agenda, have time. Calin must know by now that what he will be dealing with next, assuming the recalls take place and the balance of power changes, won't be nearly as cooperative as far as agreeing to concessions.

Everyone expects that both Calin and the MEC will attempt at a quick tweak followed by a sales job as it would serve their interests to do so.

As you can see this is very divided.

It has to get through the membership. But I wouldn't put money either way.

[Mig29]

T


WHAT IT ALL BOILS down to, jazz is the reason AC is requesting concessions!

You are not serious right???? Because if you are, then I can't even bother to comment to your wisdom.

[Mig29]

Geez you guys. You took a thread on a TA between Air Canada and ACPA and managed to devolve it into a Jazz vs ACPA thing. Can we focus on the bigger picture please? Jumpseat PRIVILEGE (note that it's a privilege not a right) and C2 passes are your big concern?? And we wonder why there is a steady decline in the WAWCON for the entire industry.

You got it yycguy!!

Gentle Giant you are missing the target here by a MILE my friend....you and some of the other folks here see Jazz as your number 1 reason for AC's financial "troubles"?!! I say, troubles in quotations because it's how AC plays their game come negotiations! It's been like this for the last decade and more...and if you haven't learned anything from it then I'm just wasting my time trying to explain to you that Jazz is the least of your worries. Hell, Jazz should be your friend, as it has effectively prevented OTHER low cost regionals from popping up like in US. But no, blame JAzz and believe CR that the only way OUT is lowering the bar and allowing MORE tier II/III companies to start up!

and you know what, those future start up can easily fly long haul wide body jets one day too, not just props and RJ....

[Mig29]

Celine brings back memories for me, I was deadheading back
after a pairing with Jazz , and happened to watch this music
video. It was on an Air Canada flight and I was recently
accepted by Air Canada to join their ranks. Years of study
and work experience paid off, as well as some paid off interviewers.
I got a bit of a tear in my eye as ol' horse face sung this song,
( she does have a great voice!!) , as I took my headset off, I
immediately heard two old hag flight attendants at the back
of the aircraft complaining over god knows what ruining my moment.
Thanks a lot b$tc$e@ .
My point being , aviation is serious business,take the high road.
We all know pilots that have died in the line of duty.
Treat other pilots with professional respect.
No other employee knows the sh?$ you went through to become
a pilot.

And here's one for you to Cheeky Too many of you forgot what it took to get here, and how every day at work could be your last.....

I'm out of here .....gotta work sometimes too, hey?

[rudder]

30,000 views.

TAv2.0 will deserve its own thread.

[the original tony]

The question is...... Has anybody got a fraction of an idea about what's going
on? Last week they met a couple of times and nothing since.
Say it with me "that ain't right!!"

[YYZFO]

Leave the regional flying to Jazz!! We've been breaking our backs for AC...Maybe its time to diversify a little further, starting with our friends out west....seems on par with what big brother is trying to do...

[rudder]

Lame duck MEC. Lame duck NC. Who has the authority to speak? Who is now setting the bargaining priorities?

Calin took a chance making a deal with people who claimed to be able to deliver the pilots. Those people are on their way out. The plan was for the rest of the unions to fall like dominoes once he had the pilots. Now the plan is up in smoke.

[aerodude]

Damn so close...

[Gentle Giant]

Geez you guys. You took a thread on a TA between Air Canada and ACPA and managed to devolve it into a Jazz vs ACPA thing. Can we focus on the bigger picture please? Jumpseat PRIVILEGE (note that it's a privilege not a right) and C2 passes are your big concern?? And we wonder why there is a steady decline in the WAWCON for the entire industry.

You got it yycguy!!

Gentle Giant you are missing the target here by a MILE my friend....you and some of the other folks here see Jazz as your number 1 reason for AC's financial "troubles"?!! I say, troubles in quotations because it's how AC plays their game come negotiations! It's been like this for the last decade and more...and if you haven't learned anything from it then I'm just wasting my time trying to explain to you that Jazz is the least of your worries. Hell, Jazz should be your friend, as it has effectively prevented OTHER low cost regionals from popping up like in US. But no, blame JAzz and believe CR that the only way OUT is lowering the bar and allowing MORE tier II/III companies to start up!

and you know what, those future start up can easily fly long haul wide body jets one day too, not just props and RJ....

You need to go back a re-read what I wrote. I never said that I thought Jazz "the reason for our "troubles"". I simply pointed out that ACPA would probably stop spending bargaining capital on protecting the monopoly that Jazz enjoys. Lots of Jazz guys have jumped on me but, strangely enough, none have acknowledged the fact that ACPA has been "protecting" their jobs for years - at a "cost" no less.

[Mig29]

And so has Jazz too! Guys need to work together in this industry, not sling mud every few years at each other!!
Jazz was your regional "buffer" against many other 'Porters' that could be easily starting up and eating away not just the regional share of AC (since after all AC sells that market - not Jazz, don't blame them for letting Porter fly) but even at the mid level trans-canada market, because who says that those same "porter" start-ups won't fly ERJ one day??

So focus your energies on keeping your well paying and deserving jobs and hope that CR doesn't slide Embraers to someone else, be it jazz or sky regional or another "LCC regional".

Good luck;)

[rudder]

Lots of Jazz guys have jumped on me but, strangely enough, none have acknowledged the fact that ACPA has been "protecting" their jobs for years - at a "cost" no less.

I call b.s. on that one. Protecting the Jazz tier 2 monopoly was not the intent of the clause that requires ACPA to approve any new tier 2 contracts. That provision was implemented to try to exert some type of control over AC's limited ability to subcontract and to effectively avoid herding cats when it came to ACPA exerting control over the potential expansion of tier 2 service providers which in some pilots opinions has been the bain of bargaining for years.

But in the bizarre world where ACPA has become the spokesman for the revised corporate plan, the spin is that ACPA is paying for the Jazz monopoly. Guess what, there is no Jazz monopoly. It is all a figment of ACPA's imagination.

[Gentle Giant]

Lots of Jazz guys have jumped on me but, strangely enough, none have acknowledged the fact that ACPA has been "protecting" their jobs for years - at a "cost" no less.

I call b.s. on that one. Protecting the Jazz tier 2 monopoly was not the intent of the clause that requires ACPA to approve any new tier 2 contracts. That provision was implemented to try to exert some type of control over AC's limited ability to subcontract and to effectively avoid herding cats when it came to ACPA exerting control over the potential expansion of tier 2 service providers which in some pilots opinions has been the bain of bargaining for years.

But in the bizarre world where ACPA has become the spokesman for the revised corporate plan, the spin is that ACPA is paying for the Jazz monopoly. Guess what, there is no Jazz monopoly. It is all a figment of ACPA's imagination.

Yes, I already said that (a few pages ago). The intent was not to protect Jazz jobs but that was the effect. I am certainly no spokesperson for ACPA or the corporate plan and there is no spin - read the words; I am simply saying that it "cost" ACPA to negotiate the clause which limits the tier 2 flying and it has "cost" ACPA to defend that clause. By "cost" I mean that negotiating capital and possible gains elsewhere in the contract were used here instead. Do you really not understand this?

The fact is that the company is really digging in their heels and negotiating hard. The conclusion I come to is that if there is some gain to be had in other areas of the contract by modifying the "monopoly" clause it will probably happen. I'm not on the negotiating committee and I'm not saying that I agree with this direction. I'm simply making a prediction.

[rudder]

I agree. The provision never should have been there in the first place. It was implemented at a time when the corporate plan was a single source tier 2 network. Now the corporate plan has changed.

But much like the inception of this provision, when it is removed be mindful of the law of unintended consequences.

[Gentle Giant]

But much like the inception of this provision, when it is removed be mindful of the law of unintended consequences.

Oh man, you got that right except that the company is 3 steps ahead of all of us, Jazz and ACPA.

[teacher]

But much like the inception of this provision, when it is removed be mindful of the law of unintended consequences.

+1

Lots of Jazz guys have jumped on me but, strangely enough, none have acknowledged the fact that ACPA has been "protecting" their jobs for years - at a "cost" no less.

The cost you speak of will only get higher for ACPA when the sole sourcing ends. I have no doubt that the contracting out will increase over time and no amount of "bargaining" will protect you. No scope clause will be enough when CR says "it's Embs elsewhere or another round of CCAA and that means more paycuts, you choose". Keep in mind we have to protect our jobs too, better to be on the same side than whipsawing each other but sadly it seems like that's the road we're heading down again.

[rudder]

If ACPA strikes, Jazz ALPA will likely not tolerate being used to undermine the legitimate right of the AC pilots to withdraw services. Can the same be said of the non-union AC portfolio carriers who are effectively 'at will' employees?

Once again, the law of unintended consequences (also known as cutting off your nose to spite your face). The AC pilots are being told that the CPA agreement with Jazz is depriving AC of dollars that would otherwise be spent expressly on AC pilots. If you believe that then perhaps I can interest you in a bridge across the East River......

ACPA needs to carefully and pragmatically evaluate the strategic value, and cost, of what is in the current collective agreement before it is given away. In other words - to think strategically. Does anyone believe that has happened?

[Gentle Giant]

The cost you speak of will only get higher for ACPA when the sole sourcing ends. I have no doubt that the contracting out will increase over time and no amount of "bargaining" will protect you. No scope clause will be enough when CR says "it's Embs elsewhere or another round of CCAA and that means more paycuts, you choose". Keep in mind we have to protect our jobs too, better to be on the same side than whipsawing each other but sadly it seems like that's the road we're heading down again.

I believe the "sole source" clause is removed but the ASM ratio concept remains (changed from 12% of total ASMs to 29% of domestic ASMs). This is from the first T/A offering - who knows what is coming? It appears that there would be no immediate effect on the AC pilots (bearing in mind of course that the management is a bunch of blood-sucking parasites!).

[Gentle Giant]

If ACPA strikes, Jazz ALPA will likely not tolerate being used to undermine the legitimate right of the AC pilots to withdraw services. Can the same be said of the non-union AC portfolio carriers who are effectively 'at will' employees?

Do you really think that the Jazz pilots would support an ACPA strike or would there be a rush of guys to get the overtime offered? Don't answer - doesn't matter anyway because any strike would be over in less than a day.

[rudder]

Do you really think that the Jazz pilots would support an ACPA strike or would there be a rush of guys to get the overtime offered? Don't answer - doesn't matter anyway because any strike would be over in less than a day.

The ACR/ALPA pilots stayed on the sidelines last time and there is no reason that would change if there is a next time. When you sign a union card it means something and that you are part of a much bigger movement.

[Plim Sole]

Ha ha! Good luck with that!
I think you will find most Jazzers will go to work in this day and age!

[rudder]

Nobody said anything about not going to work.

It is about doing anything beyond what is required by the applicable collective agreement to make things easier to mitigate the commercial impact of a legal labour dispute. How much of a collective agreement is 'at pilot discretion'? Reassignment? Overtime? etc. It is about the leadership making it clear that the other party is no different than you and is exercising a statutory right.

If you have been around long enough you have seen this drill before. In one case, it was handled badly. In another case, it was handled professionally. Not too difficult to see which was appropriate. The shoe might have been on the other foot 12 months ago.

[Norwegianwood]

Leadership! What leadership, acpa dug themselves a hole climbed in and buried themselves! Then a nothing void since. They couldn't lead a parade in a sandbox of two year olds, they are so ingrained with their own agendas to see the light.
rant over....................