Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[robertsailor1]

i'm not so sure it has always been the same. when i flew the north it was 90% map reading and in flying the otter/beaver it was vfr. i'm sure if we had gps guys would have pushed the weather more than they did. it was damn hard to skud run and map read which kept most guys out of trouble...most guys!

[pdw]

Back then there was someone actually working in our weather office with whom to consult.

[robertsailor1]

very true but not that many reporting stations but no doubt i prefered the old weather ways where you could talk to someone. these new glass panels have weather reporting built in. i have zero experience with them but seems very cool. when you compare pre gps days to today there really is such a huge difference. calculating drift,groundspeed,fuel etc all from very basic map reading and compass work(when they worked) all the while keeping a finger on the chart was slightly more mentally challenging than todays gps.

[Doc]

If it seems like I've been lost
In let's remember
If you think I'm feeling older
And missing my younger days
Oh, then you should have known
Me much better
Cause my past is something that never
Got in my way
Oh no

[robertsailor1]

funny doc but no one i know wants to go back in time, except my ex, cause you can't of course but talking about the differences are fine. i'd sure rather have gps with me than having to resort to my superior map reading ability because no matter how good i was i wasn't even close to what a gps gives you these days. you remember....... the older i get the better i was.

[pdw]

The gps introduced a reliable method of navigation (new satellite source) which eliminates the 'dead reckoning'. The glass panel (WX display) relies on the same old data from basic WX-equipment as its source, except maybe when the automated stations are not reporting, and then there's a complete void in the info. The 'old way' by telephone got the same data assimilated (checked/communicated manually), and was reliable with a WX contact (weather staff) in the remote area to count on. (forgot about Ham radio)

[Jastapilot]

Missing the point again guys. This isn't about weather reporting, or naviads, or turbines. It's an airmanship thing, an experience thing, a lack of a guy with a stick to beat you when you screw up or break rules, thing.

[2.5milefinal]

I think what you are trying to say Jastapilot, is there is a lack of good honest management.
wow...this thread is long and ummm diverse.

[pdw]

The investigation figures everything out, just that it was soon evident there weren't any weather records to check influence of the steeper pressure/temperature gradient in close-enough detail.

Over toward James bay in Northern Ontario the Attawapiskat WX history (300km north of moose factory) is actually displaying Moosonee WX. (An unusual 'thing'). If not the history, is at least the the digital data working at each site ?

[schlusselmensch]

Regarding the deplorable lack of weather reporting between YAV and YTL for destinations such as Deer, Poplar Hill, Keywaywin etc.

Personally, I phone Sandy Lake Seaplane Service and ask them for a PIREP and their valuable opinion.

They've been there and done that for a long time and if they're not flying due to WX, neither am I.

Calling on their toll-free is uncool, you should pay for the call.

A little further on you can talk to another real human at the Musselwhite Gold Mine in the Travel Department. That can be enlightening as well.

I WOULD like to cut the balls off the government legal counsel who forbade unofficial WX reports but regrettably won't get the chance.

I miss Hooper.

[esp803]

Having worked for SLSS in the past, when I worked there I would always give weather reports as accurately as possible, even when it was the competition, there is no harm in calling, make sure you pay it forward!

[Sarah Schmidt]

I'm a reporter with Postmedia News and I'd like to talk about industry people who can talk to me about safety culture and record at Keystone Air Service. Some of you have posted about it (snoopy, Bede, Duukar, sky Rookie, SnotRocket) I'm working on story and will be discussing North Spirit Lake crash. Please reach me at: sschmidt(at)postmedia(dot)com. Sarah Schmidt

[Doc]

And your keyboard doesn't have a . or a @ key?

[Jastapilot]

And your keyboard doesn't have a . or a @ key?

She wrote it like that because she doesn't want an Internet bot harvesting her email

[Jastapilot]

Sarah, a quick google search will show you keystones safety record. I can't think of a Manitoba operator who has a worse safety record, yet they live to get mileage out of their implementation of SMS.

[Doc]

Sarah, a quick google search will show you keystones safety record. I can't think of a Manitoba operator who has a worse safety record, yet they live to get mileage out of their implementation of SMS.

Sorry about the . @ thing....didn't know that.

Now, as for the SMS thing, Keystone came out with that long before the North Spirit Lake accident. They were on a "soap box" on that after the "loops, we ran out of fuel over the city, because we just don't give a damn...." accident.

[Jastapilot]

Sarah, a quick google search will show you keystones safety record. I can't think of a Manitoba operator who has a worse safety record, yet they live to get mileage out of their implementation of SMS.

Sorry about the . @ thing....didn't know that.

Now, as for the SMS thing, Keystone came out with that long before the North Spirit Lake accident. They were on a "soap box" on that after the "loops, we ran out of fuel over the city, because we just don't give a damn...." accident.

Which accident do u mean? It happened twice in Winnipeg...

[Doc]

Sarah, a quick google search will show you keystones safety record. I can't think of a Manitoba operator who has a worse safety record, yet they live to get mileage out of their implementation of SMS.

Sorry about the . @ thing....didn't know that.

Now, as for the SMS thing, Keystone came out with that long before the North Spirit Lake accident. They were on a "soap box" on that after the "loops, we ran out of fuel over the city, because we just don't give a damn...." accident.

Which accident do u mean? It happened twice in Winnipeg...

Do your homework

[Jastapilot]

Do your homework

Crusty tonight doc? Maybe you need to do your homework. Keystone has crashed twice in the city limits of Winnipeg with chieftains. One killed an elderly American tourist, which I think you are referring to. But they also crashed short of Rwy 36 with a load of pukatawagan passengers on board.

[Sidebar]

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 0c0260.asp

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 2c0124.asp

Sarah, check your PMs.

[BverLuver]

I'm a reporter with Postmedia News and I'd like to talk about industry people who can talk to me about safety culture and record at Keystone Air Service. Some of you have posted about it (snoopy, Bede, Duukar, sky Rookie, SnotRocket) I'm working on story and will be discussing North Spirit Lake crash. Please reach me at: sschmidt(at)postmedia(dot)com. Sarah Schmidt

Sarah Schmidt,

I think it would be safe to say that most on here share my view to say thank you. It is finally time that someone outside of aviation has taken notice of an operator that not only shouldn't be allowed to continue operations but also should have their owners facing our legal system to attempt to justify their deplorable safety record.

Thank you,

BL

[Gravol]

I'm a reporter with Postmedia News and I'd like to talk about industry people who can talk to me about safety culture and record at Keystone Air Service. Some of you have posted about it (snoopy, Bede, Duukar, sky Rookie, SnotRocket) I'm working on story and will be discussing North Spirit Lake crash. Please reach me at: sschmidt(at)postmedia(dot)com. Sarah Schmidt

Sarah Schmidt,

I think it would be safe to say that most on here share my view to say thank you. It is finally time that someone outside of aviation has taken notice of an operator that not only shouldn't be allowed to continue operations but also should have their owners facing our legal system to attempt to justify their deplorable safety record.

Thank you,

BL

I second that!

[Doc]

Crusty tonight doc? Maybe you need to do your homework. Keystone has crashed twice in the city limits of Winnipeg with chieftains. One killed an elderly American tourist, which I think you are referring to. But they also crashed short of Rwy 36 with a load of pukatawagan passengers on board.

Not "crusty" so much as rereading this subject opens the old question: Why the FU&K is Keystone even allowed to operate. We've talked to a couple of their crews on occasion, and the "attitude" runs deep. The stupidity we've seen pulled by Keystone pilots is mind numbing. Even spoke to one pilot who thought the chap who crashed at NSL, did a "good job, getting the job done..." Seriously. I talked to one who, purposely remained in icing conditions in a Navajo with paying passengers on board, and I quote.."just to see what the airplane felt like loaded up with ice....." He did actually say that....to two of us, so I have a witness.
Just between us girls justapilot, I know of all their crashes....and still they continue to carry passengers.....Wish the flying public would do THEIR homework!
Cheers

[RogerCheckCopy]

.

[Jastapilot]

Crusty tonight doc? Maybe you need to do your homework. Keystone has crashed twice in the city limits of Winnipeg with chieftains. One killed an elderly American tourist, which I think you are referring to. But they also crashed short of Rwy 36 with a load of pukatawagan passengers on board.

Not "crusty" so much as rereading this subject opens the old question: Why the FU&K is Keystone even allowed to operate. We've talked to a couple of their crews on occasion, and the "attitude" runs deep. The stupidity we've seen pulled by Keystone pilots is mind numbing. Even spoke to one pilot who thought the chap who crashed at NSL, did a "good job, getting the job done..." Seriously. I talked to one who, purposely remained in icing conditions in a Navajo with paying passengers on board, and I quote.."just to see what the airplane felt like loaded up with ice....." He did actually say that....to two of us, so I have a witness.
Just between us girls justapilot, I know of all their crashes....and still they continue to carry passengers.....Wish the flying public would do THEIR homework!
Cheers

Then we wholeheartedly agree with each other