Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Mad Catz]

Guys, there is a larger issue at stake here. Canada has just announced they are discontinuing the penny. How is Encore going to pay their pilots now!?

[truth fairy]

-_-_-_-_-_

[RustyDeuce]

About 10 pages back this is touched on and how the regional market, particularly in Canada, is about to radically change. I would hardly call it trolling. We all compete in the same arena. One gets a competitive advantage? All others eventually follow suit. Compete or parish.

You made your choice. We all did. Some made good choices and some didn't. There are some still yet to make choices. Encore is going to grow and add up to 45 Q400's that will come at the expense of its competition. If you have yet to make your "next step" - you need to take that into consideration. You need to see what's going to happen in the next 1, 2, 5, and 10 years. It's not going to get any easier. Pick your path well.

[onetreehill]

I did.

[Fanblade]

About 10 pages back this is touched on and how the regional market, particularly in Canada, is about to radically change. I would hardly call it trolling. We all compete in the same arena. One gets a competitive advantage? All others eventually follow suit. Compete or parish.

You made your choice. We all did. Some made good choices and some didn't. There are some still yet to make choices. Encore is going to grow and add up to 45 Q400's that will come at the expense of its competition. If you have yet to make your "next step" - you need to take that into consideration. You need to see what's going to happen in the next 1, 2, 5, and 10 years. It's not going to get any easier. Pick your path well.

Absolutely. I'm pretty sure that sums up what was said a bunch of pages back. Compete or Parish. If you aren't competitive, you will parish.

My point is about wages for new entrants or pilots looking at these jobs as a future. They aren't and likely never will be (Save a flow through to a better paying job). The wages are NOT going up. This is NOT like when WJ entered the market with a 30% plus cost advantage and 15 years later still enjoys a 15% advantage. AC will match Encore dollar for dollar on the cost front. There is no union hindrance this time.

Corporations will make some $
Passengers will save some $

All at the expense of employee wages and working conditions.

The main reason these wages are not going up is pilot cost per seat mile. Regional costs in Canada have been cross subsidized to this point in Canada unlike the US. In Canada Encore is going to force everyone competing with them to end cross subsidization.

Some examples. More like guestematiins. numbers are for illustration only.

Cost of two pilots. Wages, benefits, pension divided by seats.

AC 777. $450/hr divided by 380 seats= $1.18 per pax per hour.

AC EMJ. $250/hr divided by 97 seats = $2.57 per pax per hour.

Jazz Q-400. $200/hrdivided by 78 seats = $2.56 per pax per hour.

SR Q-400. $100/hr divided by 78 seats = $1.28 per pax per hour.

SR 175. Same

EncSore Q-400 same

Jazz CRJ 100. $200/hr divided by 50 seats = $4.00 per pax per hour.

Jazz-8-100. $200/hr divided by 37 seats = $5.40 per pax per hour. (Slower and takes longer. )

So if cross subsidization is about to end where does the cost savings come from? Fuel? Leases? Maintenance? Nav fees? Nope it has to come from the only variable cost left. Employees.

Wages are NOT going up at these upstarts. If the employees try they will just be replaced.

Or simpler yet. Just stand on the 49th parallel and look south to see our future. Skywest, Expressjet, have been very successful. Anyone want to work at those wages?

Comair, American Eagle and Horizon either gone or on a downward trend. Why? Too expensive.

Every single major airline pilot group in North America who operates a regional has had a say in creation and evolution. Not a single one has bothered to set a minimum livable wage for a professional pilot.

We are a sad lot. Particularly us here in Canada. We have had a ring side seat to the regional situation in the States.

What do we do? Nothing.

[flyer 1492]

Good post Fanblade, we ARE our own worst enemy. I looked into your numbers and just using the salaries (top pay) without pension and benefits added in (that would be a shot in the dark). Here are some numbers to think about.

Air Canada
B-777 $400.00/hr 349 seats
E-90 $229.00 97 seats

West Jet
B-737 $283.00 (600) 119 seats (700) 136 (800) 166

Jazz
All types $184.00 705 75 seats Q400 74 seats Dh8-300 CRJ 50 seats Dh8-100 37 seats

SR
All types $ 158.00 E-75 73 seats Q400 74

Encore
Q400 $102.00 78 seats

With the WJ pilots heading into negs. I would be a little worried with the difference in the payrates.

[Fanblade]

Pensions are expensive. Leaving them out will lead to inaccuracy. Total compensation is the only real comparison and as such pension can't be excluded..

Your AC and Jazz numbers are too low. WJ numbers are difficult to compare due to profit sharing and options.

I very much doubt WJ pilots have a total compensation greater than AC pension in. Or that they will have difficulty in negotiations.

Where did you get those SR numbers from? They look high.

[North Shore]

Sorry, spelling flames are lame, I know; but seeing as you guys are obviously not spending your profit cheques on dictionaries, and as spell-checks don't pick up homophones..

Compete or Parish. If you aren't competitive, you will parish.

Parish = church catchment area.

Perish = Die.

Perish, perish, perish...

[mbav8r]

Wonder where this will come from, ummmm...let me think, cheaper fuel, nope that can't be it. Well I'm sure Greg has some ideas.

WestJet also announced on Wednesday plans to cut $100 million of costs over 36 months, in part to enable the airline to continue its reputation as a low-cost carrier.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/W ... z2KAqR3KyA

[countryhick]

What, no snappy retorts, no spin??

[Mig29]

Great points Fanblade....but what's the point if you pardon the pun?

Some of these guys don't see anything but a shiny new Q400 with a maple leaf or WJ logo on its tail...the math doesn't make sense to them nor they care....they are all hoping for a quick hop to the mainline. The money? it doesn't really matter to them, because the jobs they left behind were twice as crappy as the new gig. You almost cant blame them....or can you? But in 5 years from now when the math does sink in, it may be too late for personal confessions of guilt and disappointment.

[BTyyj]

You almost cant blame them.

No, you can't blame someone for taking an upgrade.

Even if every current pilot said no, these airline would probably just find someone out of high school and get them to pay $60k for training then place them in the right seat of a Q400. As long as the current system of training and rules are in place, the pay with continue to degrade, not at the fault of these pilots but at their expense.

[flyer 1492]

Fan Blade

The numbers I used came from Aviation Pilot Central also I used the top pay for Captains and F/O's. For SR I used the numbers from this website which is their base pay plus hourly wage and divided it by 680 hours. I didn't include pension or benefits in the mix, since they are hard numbers to come by unless you have all the contracts. I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Flyer

[invertedattitude]

While I think it's deplorable the downward spiral in wages for pilot groups, a few in this thread need to get off their soapboxes and stop pretending you wouldn't do the same in their shoes.