Perimiter Ramp Wait Time

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You can learn 95% about a commercial operation in a month, they can learn 100% about you in a week.

Flying airplanes is really not all that difficult as long as you have the basic motor skills and an average intelligence, in fact you can make it with below average intelligence as demonstrated by people willing to work as a common laborer for years just to get in an airplane.

But the supply of willing slaves never seems to end.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I'm sure if you're willing to be a rampie (nothing like aiming high!) there should be lots. I'm sure Wasaya can "use" you. It's what that do.....just to name one.
Illya

what does this even mean?
s.

Seriously? What does this mean. Okay, since you obviously have ADD, allow me to clarify. Take your licence out. Now read it. Does it say Commercial Pilot Licence?
It does?
Now spool up Google and search Commercial Pilot.
Got that? Good.
Now, see if you can find "not qualified to perform duties other than ramp worker"?
How about "forklift driver..."?
No?
Gee....wonder why?
You have a very expensive piece of paper (okay, a cute little booklet) that qualifies you to operate aircraft for hire and reward.
Still with me?
So, go out there on your hind legs and find a job FLYING aircraft.
Illya

[Big Pistons Forever]

Ilya

Does your operation hire 200 hr fresh CPL ME IFR guys directly into a pilot position ?

[FL7377]

I'm sure if you're willing to be a rampie (nothing like aiming high!) there should be lots. I'm sure Wasaya can "use" you. It's what that do.....just to name one.
Illya

what does this even mean?
s.

Seriously? What does this mean. Okay, since you obviously have ADD, allow me to clarify. Take your licence out. Now read it. Does it say Commercial Pilot Licence?
It does?
Now spool up Google and search Commercial Pilot.
Got that? Good.
Now, see if you can find "not qualified to perform duties other than ramp worker"?
How about "forklift driver..."?
No?
Gee....wonder why?
You have a very expensive piece of paper (okay, a cute little booklet) that qualifies you to operate aircraft for hire and reward.
Still with me?
So, go out there on your hind legs and find a job FLYING aircraft.
Illya

Before we all get really excited....

Lets see a direct entry flying job add that only requires 200 hrs?

[Diadem]

Seriously? What does this mean. Okay, since you obviously have ADD, allow me to clarify. Take your licence out. Now read it. Does it say Commercial Pilot Licence?
It does?
Now spool up Google and search Commercial Pilot.
Got that? Good.
Now, see if you can find "not qualified to perform duties other than ramp worker"?
How about "forklift driver..."?
No?
Gee....wonder why?
You have a very expensive piece of paper (okay, a cute little booklet) that qualifies you to operate aircraft for hire and reward.
Still with me?
So, go out there on your hind legs and find a job FLYING aircraft.
Illya

I'll repost this, because every time I make the same point, you ignore it. NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO A JOB JUST BECAUSE THEY PASSED THE TRAINING.

Paying for acting lessons doesn't make one an actor, and it certainly doesn't entitle one to a job. If you go to acting school and then refuse to take any job that doesn't put you in a movie, you're going to go hungry pretty quickly. You could go and work as a waiter while you wait for auditions, or you could start working as a production assistant to learn about the business and make connections. Either way, you aren't a professional actor just because you went to school; you have to be working as an actor first.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Diadem, the message Illya, XSbank and me are trying to get across is after you finish your flight training don't work for peanuts for any aviation company that will not include flying in the job right from the start.

It has never been easy getting a start in flying but a lot of us did it without being financially sodomized as ramp rats.

[cdnpilot77]

I think more importantly, don't set you sights and lofty goals on a ramp position...if that's what you need to survive then that's what it is, no different than working at McDonald's but it shouldn't be what you seek out and further more don't accept sub par wages because of the possibility you may one day get a seat.

[xsbank]

Beat me to it ..

The problem is that you are worth a lot more to a flying company as a ramp rat than as a pilot because you will crawl over broken glass to do the best job you can. Somebody already said this but the locals will never do this job as good as you because they will go home after 8 hours and will take sick days etc. But you won't! They set you up to compete with the other rats and if you take a sick day, it puts you on the shit list and you run the risk of not getting trained.

Companies are very quick to make you sign a bond for training but not so quick to give you a training or checkout schedule. Why would they? You give them twice what a local would give.

At least TRY and get a job in an airplane instead of heading directly to Perimeter. Cdnpilot77 got it right.

Diadem. Nobody is talking entitlement. Pilots are selling their labour to a company that is willing to pay for it. If the company is far away and there are no local pilots, they have to pay big for an experienced guy if you are going to get him to work for you. A low-timer, not so much money, just some flying. The low-timer is legal and if you can get insurance for him, why not?

I once gave a pilot who had won a Women in Aviation Scholarship a type rating on a Challenger 604. She had a single engine instrument rating on a Cirrus and a bare multi. She did really well. She didn't need any extra training time and she was good with her hands and feet as she had actually just been flying. The rest of the guys in the class were cheesed off because it took them a few more years to get to the stage of a 604 type but most of that anger was misogyny as they were certainly not as well prepared as she was. She ended up getting hired by a company that flew a 601 and she had to go to another school and get a type on that one too!

It's a total red herring that pilots need to "prove themselves" on the ramp before they can fly for a living.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

It's a total red herring that pilots need to "prove themselves" on the ramp before they can fly for a living.

Do you think we will eventually get through to these young people that they are being used if they believe that working as a ramp rat is the way to get to be a pilot?

[powerbrian]

There are 50 entry level flying positions available. There are 100 entry level pilots looking. 50 get jobs, the other 50 do not. Should the 50 who do not have a job go work at mcdonalds with the hope that next year when another 50 spots open, their resume will stand out, or are they better off getting on with a company who has told them they are guaranteed one of the 50 spots when they open. You can wait in a non aviation job or you can wait within the system knowing you will get the next spot. Its a no brainer. Working the ramp is inevitable when there are more entry level pilots than jobs.

PB

[Chuck Ellsworth]

or are they better off getting on with a company who has told them they are guaranteed one of the 50 spots when they open. You can wait in a non aviation job or you can wait within the system knowing you will get the next spot. Its a no brainer. Working the ramp is inevitable when there are more entry level pilots than jobs.

It is highly unlikely that any company will guarantee a job to anyone if they work as a ramp rat.

Rather than work at McDonalds why not get a job in construction or the oil patch or drive a truck....

...jobs that pay a living wage and usually more than flying an airplane.

[PointyEngine]

There are 50 entry level flying positions available. There are 100 entry level pilots looking. 50 get jobs, the other 50 do not. Should the 50 who do not have a job go work at mcdonalds with the hope that next year when another 50 spots open, their resume will stand out, or are they better off getting on with a company who has told them they are guaranteed one of the 50 spots when they open. You can wait in a non aviation job or you can wait within the system knowing you will get the next spot. Its a no brainer. Working the ramp is inevitable when there are more entry level pilots than jobs.

PB

+1

Some of the posters here seem to feel that having a CPL automatically entitles them to a direct entry flying position, and puts them above working the ramp for a while. I have friends who slaved away at law school for 5 years, and are administrative clerks at the moment. Apparently a fancy word for secretary they say. They know they have to work hard to be noticed, and hopefully beat the guy next to them at the next spot. Some firms capitalize on this, and will abuse them for cheap labour - no different from aviation.

My first job was direct onto a seasonal C.206, I actually took a ramp position after this job with another company at around 800hrs. WTF you ask?

I'd done some research, and wanted a job with this particular company, however they very rarely hired. I heard from multiple sources they move guys onto the flight line regularly, and was told I'd be looking at 6 - 12 months, and making a decent penny to boot. All worked out dandy, and 3 months later was PPC'd and checked out. I wouldn't have considered this option without hearing some reputable info. I know lots of 200hr wonders who this has worked out for just fine, but also a few who have been taken for a ride by some shitty companies...

Illy in particular, don't hiss and spit at young guys who consider working a ramp position.
Would you suggest they sit in a job outside of aviation to hold some sort of moral high-ground, as once we have a CPL, we are clearly well above this type of work??

Perhaps if we give these guys some constructive info, instead of summoning the lynch mob and comparing their intelligence to amoeba we might help some of these young folks out?

Just a thought...

[powerbrian]

Lots of companies guarantee flight line if you work for them. What people like xsbank and Ilya fail to realize is that you are not working the ramp to prove yourself or to pay your dues. You are on the ramp because they are not hiring for the flight line. When they do, you have an in and they take you. They are not going to take you when a spot opens up if your making great money on the oil patch in the mean time. Get a job outside of aviation while you wait and your a lot less likely to break in to that right or left seat.

[powerbrian]

or are they better off getting on with a company who has told them they are guaranteed one of the 50 spots when they open. You can wait in a non aviation job or you can wait within the system knowing you will get the next spot. Its a no brainer. Working the ramp is inevitable when there are more entry level pilots than jobs.

It is highly unlikely that any company will guarantee a job to anyone if they work as a ramp rat.

Rather than work at McDonalds why not get a job in construction or the oil patch or drive a truck....

...jobs that pay a living wage and usually more than flying an airplane.

Go ahead and take the higher paying job outside of aviation and see your wait time to an aircraft double. Most companies do guarantee a seat once one is AVAILABLE!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Ilya

Does your operation hire 200 hr fresh CPL ME IFR guys directly into a pilot position ?

We don't hire pilots for the ramp. Even after ten years on the ramp, they're still 200 hour pilots. What's your point? Usually we get guys with 1500 hours plus.....but you can't get ANY hours working on a ramp m
Illya

[cdnpilot77]

So Brian, if after 2yrs of working the ramp and you've pissed off the training pilot just enough to pass you over or make sure that you aren't going to pass the sim eval, or the economy takes a giant deuce, then what? Where is your guaranteed seat? What would be the motivation or the carrot dangling for you to work your ass off for the company if you were guaranteed a seat?

I will say it again, The only guarantee in aviation is there are no guarantees.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Lots of companies guarantee flight line if you work for them. What people like xsbank and Ilya fail to realize is that you are not working the ramp to prove yourself or to pay your dues. You are on the ramp because they are not hiring for the flight line. When they do, you have an in and they take you. They are not going to take you when a spot opens up if your making great money on the oil patch in the mean time. Get a job outside of aviation while you wait and your a lot less likely to break in to that right or left seat.

And you call yourself "powerbrain"? (Autocorrect got you a name change). LOL
If they're not hiring pilots, they're not hiring pilots. Look elsewhere.
outside the industry? Somebody's always hiring pilots....research.
Name one company that GUARANTEES you a flight position if you work for them. Just ONE.
Illya

[Diadem]

It has never been easy getting a start in flying but a lot of us did it without being financially sodomized as ramp rats.

Financially sodomized? I made double working as a rampie than I would have in fast food or the like, plus health and dental, and an RRSP program.

It is highly unlikely that any company will guarantee a job to anyone if they work as a ramp rat.

Rather than work at McDonalds why not get a job in construction or the oil patch or drive a truck....

...jobs that pay a living wage and usually more than flying an airplane.

I was given a guarantee that I would get a flying job if I worked the ramp. Hell, I signed a contract. As for working in construction, the oil patch, or driving a truck, I didn't have any money left to get myself anymore training, I had no relevant experience in any of those fields, and frankly I don't think I would have lasted in those industries. Besides, with all the layoffs in the oil patch right now, you'd have a hell of a time finding a job in any of those industries (and if you think that only affects Alberta and Saskatchewan, most of the people who were laid off first were from out-of-province and being flown in on the companies' dime); there are are thousands of unemployed construction workers, rig pigs, and truck drivers across the country. If there aren't high-paying jobs available in any industry, do you just refuse to work altogether? When I started looking for a job, six years ago during the absolute nadir of the recession, I couldn't even find a job in fast food, because there was zero hiring going on in any industry. There were absolutely no direct-entry flying jobs available, and air operators were downsizing or closing altogether, so they weren't even hiring experienced pilots, let alone guys with 200 hours. One of the companies to which I applied finally responded and said that they didn't have any flying jobs, but because of retirements and mat leave they expected something would open up within a year; if I stayed for that long, at the most, they guaranteed I would be in a cockpit. If I didn't want to work the ramp, I could get a job stocking shelves at Canadian Tire or something until my spot opened, but why wouldn't I want to work around airplanes, and for better pay no less? Because it's not good enough for .?
Things have changed over the last eighty years, or however long it's been since . and Illya started flying. That you were able to get straight in a plane is great, but it isn't the rule, it's the exception, and I suspect it was the same back then. It might have worked like that for you two, but how many thousands of pilots just gave up on ever getting a job and went to other industries? We don't hear from them, obviously, so all we get is the perspective of the two who were lucky enough to get flying jobs right away. The bush isn't what it used to be anyway, and light singles are disappearing; the flying that used to be done by Beavers and 206s is now done by King Airs and Twin Otters. Even trying to get a right-seat job isn't easy anymore, what with Contrails and provincial regulations for air ambulance pilots to have 500 hours. As for crop dusting, most of the ads out are like this: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7&t=101743 They want 1000 hours of ag flying. Ag companies (and float operators, for that matter) are becoming sensitive to lawsuits and insurance requirements, and it's cheaper to raise their experience levels than train 200-hour pilots. About the only entry-level jobs that go directly into a cockpit, besides paying for an instructor rating, are some dockhand/float flying jobs, where apparently it's okay to do manual labour if you get 30 hours in a 185 in a year, and skydiving. If you insist on getting a flying job, you're competing with hundreds of other pilots for a few coveted positions, and what do you do if you finish your licence in the fall when all of those operators shut down for the season? Work at Mickey D's, or work for an aviation company? I worked for an airline while I was working on my licence, in a position that would never have ever possibly led to a flying job, and I loved it because I worked around airplanes, not to mention making a living wage. What's wrong with that?
My SO is a highly-paid professional with a degree from a prestigious university, but when she was a fresh graduate she had to work at Hallmark to pay her bills. Her cousin has a teaching certificate, and he works part-time at Costco. Just because someone gave you a piece of paper saying that you're able to work in a particular job doesn't mean you deserve to work in that job, and it certainly doesn't mean that it's beneath you to work in another job while you try to get your chosen career started. In the thread on getting one's first job, Roar stated that he spent every day hanging around the airport making contacts and getting to know people, until he was offered a job after a year. That's great and all, but what was he doing for money for that year? I would have been working with airplanes, in some form, because I love being around them. I spent a year as a rampie, and got flying within a year anyway, so how would I have been better off if I didn't work for that year while I schmoozed? I don't see the harm in working the ramp and making an income, while still making contacts, even if it won't lead to a flying position, if that's a job that you'll enjoy. Should I work a job that I hate because it pays 10% more and it's more acceptable to . and Illya?
What irritates me the most is the older generation getting up the backs of kids fresh out of school, who have no power, no influence, and no savings to sit around for a couple of years waiting for the perfect job to be handed to them on a golden platter. Meanwhile, the CPs, ops managers, and the pilots who are their friends come on here to berate guys who are just trying to get a foothold in the industry, and who have to deal with the situation that was created by the older guys. You can't possibly blame young pilots for taking ramp jobs when it's the managers and the senior guys who are making those jobs, and forcing new employees to work the ramp. You don't like it? So what have you done about it? Have you talked to your CP and encouraged him/her to hire 200-hour pilots? Or did you sit together at the bar and laugh at all the stupid people who apply to your company with less than 1000 hours? New pilots are dealing with the industry that YOU created, and that only YOU have the power to change, but you aren't doing anything about it. I wonder if this whole assault on pilots taking ramp jobs is just a subconscious way for you to deflect your guilt, a way to place blame on someone else, when you know deep down that you are responsible for them taking those jobs. Getting upset with new pilots taking non-flying jobs is like yelling at your dog for pooping on the floor after you left him locked inside all day.

[Diadem]

We don't hire pilots for the ramp. Even after ten years on the ramp, they're still 200 hour pilots. What's your point? Usually we get guys with 1500 hours plus.....but you can't get ANY hours working on a ramp m
Illya

So what are you doing to improve the situation? You're in a position to influence hiring at your company, but instead of encouraging your CP to give jobs to fresh CPLs you just come on here and shit all over them for not being able to get flying jobs? How utterly hypocritical.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Ilya

Does your operation hire 200 hr fresh CPL ME IFR guys directly into a pilot position ?

We don't hire pilots for the ramp. Even after ten years on the ramp, they're still 200 hour pilots. What's your point? Usually we get guys with 1500 hours plus.....but you can't get ANY hours working on a ramp m
Illya

You guys fly King Airs and the like right ? So your 200 hr CPL ME IFR guy who has never worked one day in any aviation related capacity is from a regulatory point of view completely qualified to be an FO, but you are not hiring them. Seems like hiring the know nothing brand new wannabe is the only right way to go, as long as some one else gets to rub all the rough edges off and teach them the how the real world of avaition works, then they can work for you

[Roar]

Roar stated that he spent every day hanging around the airport making contacts and getting to know people, until he was offered a job after a year. That's great and all, but what was he doing for money for that year.

If you're going to quote me I'd thank you to do so accurately. I DID NOT say I spent everyday hanging around the airport. What I wrote was "I would also two or three times a month go to the restaurant at the FBO and just hang out and meet people."
As for what I did for money during that year, which was 1997-98 by the way was work for a handyman construction company building decks, fences, metal siding, basements ect.

Furthermore, your assertion that "Things have changed over the last eighty years, or however long it's been since . and Illya started flying. That you were able to get straight in a plane is great, but it isn't the rule, it's the exception, and I suspect it was the same back then." is only partially correct. The equipment and path may have changed over the years but the difficulty of landing that first job has always been very hard, whether it is the present, 1997, 1980, 1965, 1940 or 1925. As an aside when I broke in, in 1998 to be a Navajo Captain requirements were being posted at 4000-5000hrs minimum.

I have no idea how old you are so maybe you did see those lean days in the 90's also. From your post I am assuming that you started into the industry sometime after that, if my assumption is incorrect, my apologies.

To be clear to all, I have never made any disparaging comments about guys working the ramp as a way in. This is a very tough industry to get into and we all have to make choices as to how we do that. The purpose of my How We Scored Our First Job thread was to show that there are a multitude of ways to get your start, more that just the ramp which seems to be the default method these days.

You also posed the question "how many thousands of pilots just gave up on ever getting a job and went to other industries?" That is very true. It's a hard fact of life that a lot of people who get their Commercial pilots license will not have a career as a pilot. It takes good fortune and a determination bordering on the obsessive to stick out the early years.

[Big Pistons Forever]

You also posed the question "how many thousands of pilots just gave up on ever getting a job and went to other industries?" That is very true. It's a hard fact of life that a lot of people who get their Commercial pilots license will not have a career as a pilot. It takes good fortune and a determination bordering on the obsessive to stick out the early years.

Good point. My observation after 29 yrs of full and part time instructions. For every 10 pilots who get a CPL

- 4 Will never fly commercially
- 3 Will give up on flying within 5 years and pursue another career
- 4 Will make a career of flying

[YYZSaabGuy]

Good point. My observation after 29 yrs of full and part time instructions. For every 10 pilots who get a CPL

- 4 Will never fly commercially
- 3 Will give up on flying within 5 years and pursue another career
- 4 Will make a career of flying

So one guy quit twice?
(Sorry, BPF, couldn't help myself)...

[Big Pistons Forever]

Good point. My observation after 29 yrs of full and part time instructions. For every 10 pilots who get a CPL

- 4 Will never fly commercially
- 3 Will give up on flying within 5 years and pursue another career
- 4 Will make a career of flying

So one guy quit twice?
(Sorry, BPF, couldn't help myself)...

You mean math is important for a pilot

The last 4 was supposed to be a 3

I will try again

- 4 Will never fly commercially
- 3 Will give up on flying within 5 years and pursue another career
- 3 Will make a career of flying

[Illya Kuryakin]

We don't hire pilots for the ramp. Even after ten years on the ramp, they're still 200 hour pilots. What's your point? Usually we get guys with 1500 hours plus.....but you can't get ANY hours working on a ramp m
Illya

So what are you doing to improve the situation? You're in a position to influence hiring at your company, but instead of encouraging your CP to give jobs to fresh CPLs you just come on here and shit all over them for not being able to get flying jobs? How utterly hypocritical.

We hire less than one pilot every other year. Guess this makes me a hypocrite? Not only do we not hire for the ramp, our freight walks on and off our airplanes. After your last rant (post?) it would appear you probably wouldn't make our short list. If this sounds insulting, it's intended to.
Illya