Western Seperation

[JBI]

With a large country as diverse as Canada, the simple fact is that there will be some better off areas that economically support worse off areas.

During different times this will vary. I'm not arguing the fact that the West shouldn't feel alienated. However, I find it interesting that there's extreme amounts of annimosity towards Southern Ontario for controlling the political environment and 'stealing' Alberta's Oil revenues.

Two things to keep in mind-
1: The population of Toronto alone is greater than that of all of Alberta (2001: 4,682,897 vs. 2,974,807), so in a democracy (government by the people) Toronto should have more ridings than all of Alberta, however, Toronto has 22 electoral ridings whereas Alberta has 26. Therefore, a vote by a single Albertan is worth 'more' than that of a single Torontonian.

2: Ontario, like Alberta, puts far more money into federal coffers than it recieves back due to equalization payments.

This is the way it works in a Confederation. If well to do provinces wanted to cast away the ones that economically need to be supported than overall, the country as a whole would be in far worse shape.

I do very much agree that their needs to be some form of senate reform though. The senate was designed to be a counter balance to this exact problem where one region has a much higher population than that of other regions and therefore gains more political power. It's about time to make it effective and more than just a cushy post for friends of former Prime Ministers (This isn't just a Liberal fad, The conservatives put a bunch in as well)

[Blastor]

Talk of western separation 'overblown:' McLellan

CTV.ca News Staff

While Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan contends that there is discontent among western Canadians, she says recent talk of separation is "vastly overblown."

McLellan, who is the Liberal MP for the Edmonton Centre riding, was referring to a recent poll that suggested at least one-third of western Canadians think it's time for their provinces to consider forming their own nation.

The poll was commissioned by Western Standard magazine, a right-leaning bimonthly news and opinion magazine.

"I think there is discontent in relation to certain things, there is some concern," McLellan said in an interview that aired Sunday on CTV's Question Period.

"But having said that, I think we need to be careful about the language we use, and I think the language of separation or alienation overstates that which is the real feeling of the vast majority of westerners."

The Liberals assert that they have made attempts to reach out to western Canadians.

Earlier, Finance Minister Ralph Goodale indicated that holding last week's caucus meeting in Regina was a "helpful step" toward conquering alienation in Western Canada.

McLellan also noted that Prime Minister Paul Martin will visit both Saskatchewan and Alberta next week to celebrate both provinces centennial birthdays.

"I am not suggesting that discontent is simply based, or even primarily based, on geographic distance between the national capital and ourselves, but that is part of it," she said.

But one Calgary-based radio host disagrees.

"Just having the caucus meeting in Regina is not going to do it. It's tokenism, and frankly that's embarrassing," David Rutherford said, appearing on Question Period.

He says there is a "general anxiety" about the fact that Quebec "has undue influence in the politics of the nation," he said.

Another concern, he says, is "the population imbalance, of course ,which gives Toronto and the GTA a tremendous balance in voting power."

Rutherford believes alienation may be alleviated by "an understanding of this part of the world."

One of the outstanding concerns that western Canadians feel has gone unaddressed is gun control, he said.

"Gun control in and of itself is a Toronto-generated hysteria that cost us $2 billion and didn't save anybody's life, but it did persecute a lot of western people who have a lifestyle that includes rifles and shotguns," he said.

With a federal election approaching as early as the beginning of next year, such issues may return to the forefront.

"If there's another Liberal minority or Liberal majority government (after the next election,) look out, you're going to hear a lot from Alberta," Rutherford said.

[EI-EIO]

Paying off the debt is all fine and well but all families and businesses carry some debt to invest in capital items. A debt/GDP ratio of say 20% is fine. My understanding is AB, while paying off the debt which looks well for Ralph, has significant infrastructural deficits (look at the crisis in meat production when cattle couldn't cross the border to slaughter plants in the US), and that Edmonton is not enjoying the same kind of prosperity as Calgary. Add to that the influx of Canadians moving to AB will put pressure on local schools, health etc.

Keeping a certain level of debt is no problem because if you expand the economy the significance of that debt decreases. The reason Ireland's debt/GDP ratio is 30% now (one of the EU's lowest) as opposed to over 125% in 1987 is not because the debt was paid down - it's because the economy has increased by a multiple of its 80s days so the debt has been refinanced at better rates as the credit rating improved.

Equalisation doesn't work because it's a vehicle for pork. The have-not provinces should be told - this money is Canada's money and it is not charity. Canada has a selfish interest in making you prosperous so we're going to invest in projects that create work 52 weeks of the year rather than filling gaps between fishing season and EI entitlement periods. It should be called something like "structural funds" as in the EU and if the provinces prefer deciding for themselves what they want to spend money on they can find their own.

[LostinRotation]

If you want to leave Canada, pack up your shit and go. Just because you were born in Alberta or currently reside there, it doesn't mean you have claim to the Oil under the ground. It isn't mine, it isn't yours. People talk like they own the oil patch because they live there....what the hell made it yours ? What did you do for it ? Greedy little bitches want to tear Canada apart because they think their bank account will benifit ? Give your head a shake and look 30 years into the future. Canada isn't perfect but I'll be damned if I let some whiney beatnick tear it apart so he can drive an SUV and pitch a tent over an oil patch.

-=0=LIR=0=-

[just another pilot]

The animosity towards Southern Ontario isn't due to the Liberal monopolization of Parliament, its the lack of acknowlegement regarding transfer payments - among other things. We realize that Canada is a "democracy" and that the majority of population is in the east, and that Liberal policy is to serve the popular vote. However, there are, at times, blatent policies and decisions that are implemented that serve Eastern Canadians at the expense of Western Canada. In 1964, the equalization formula was changed to disfavor Albertans and redistribute wealth in order to average all 10 provinces. Ontario is a "have" province, and also pay transfers. However, based on population, Ontario per capita pays no where near what the average Albertan pays. Worse, we see a "have not" province of Quebec lavished with our money, contracts - real or imagined.

As far as a single Alberta vote being worth more than an Ontario one - perhaps Eastern Canada should reform to a blend of proportional representation, reform senate and prevent their Prime Minister from hand picking his cabinet. Our current dictator wields more power than the president of the United States. The Belinda move sure did a lot to shore up Western alienation. This behavior is not acceptable to Albertans, but we also know that it will continue, and that no political reform will occur.

Alberta is not next door to Ontario. Albertans and other Western Canadians realize the state of neo-colonialism that exists, and to quote Thomas Payne's "Commen Sense" speech; "No taxation without representation." Western Canadians now question the legitimacy of the Ottawa government.

[hz2p]

I can't help but bust a gut, laughing at the frenchies who want a slice of Alberta's pie.

I think it's time for Quebec separation, does anyone else?

[North Shore]

EI: I'm not sure what our debt-to-GDP ratio is right now, but I'd bet it hasn't seen 20% since the late 60's. You are also making a big assumption that the economy will grow sufficiently in the future to reduce the debt ratio; oil just spiked to over $70 a barrel - how will that affect the economy of our biggest trading partner/customer? Too much of a turn down, and we're in trouble. Pay off as much as we can now, while the times are good - if the economy continues to grow, then great - if not, then we'll be in good shape too...

Edited to add: IMHO, King Ralph should spend a few billion a year from his surplus on developing a renewable energy industry. Then when the oil runs out, it'll be a smooth transition for our grandchildren....

[JBI]

...

[Nightshiftzombie]

I find it a little interesting that most of the talk about "democratic deficit" and how horrible it is that the Liberals keep getting elected seems to mostly come from a province that has had one party in power for over 30 years.

[Blastor]

Such a fragile confederation.............Need help before it collapse

Why Alberta's growing wealth will test unity

Toronto Star Aug. 29, 2005. 01:00 AM

CHANTAL HÉBERT

Five years down the road, will the next leader of the Parti Québécois pose the main challenge to the Canadian status quo or will it be the successor to Alberta premier Ralph Klein ?

Because of the nature of the political change advocated by the PQ, there is an inclination to conclude that there can be no greater challenge to the fabric of the federation than the threat of separation.

Yet, as others in these pages and elsewhere have argued, Quebec has already assumed many of the attributes of sovereignty without impacting on how other provinces conduct their business with the federal government or with each other.

The PQ also operates in a highly competitive political environment.

Its next leader cannot take either the party's return to power or a future referendum victory for granted. When the Alberta Conservatives pick Ralph Klein's successor on the other hand, they will be selecting a premier. Given their supremacy in the province, their new leader is virtually assured of securing at least one, and maybe more, government mandates for his party.

Many Canadians have just started to take stock of what the developments on the energy front mean for Alberta. The province is about to have bigger budget surpluses than the combined sum of those of all of the other provinces.

Already, Alberta is less interested than its poorer sisters in finding ways to grab more of the federal surplus and more concerned about making the most of its own windfall.

Think of the possibilities. With such wealth, Alberta could attract the best and brightest to its schools, its universities and its hospitals. It could overhaul its fiscal system and become even more of a magnet for businesses and head offices.

If it so chooses, Alberta has the potential to turn itself into a role model for the rest of the country as a social policy innovator.

The Alberta surplus could also allow the province to do through the back door of fiscal might what generations of politicians from Western Canada have failed to achieve through the front door of Parliament and secure an influence on the national scene commensurate with its achievements.

But there is flip side.

Over the years, Canadians have got used to Quebec opting out of national programs to do its own thing.

Nothing stands in the way of Alberta doing just that.

But as one of the provinces that foots more than its share of the social bills of the rest of the country, Alberta will increasingly also be in a position to question why it should continue to put in more than it gets back into a federation that marginalizes its input in the decision-making process.

Medicare is just one example. The federal government already has all the might of a paper tiger when it comes to enforcing national standards in health care. That trend is not about to be reversed in its future dealings with Alberta.

So far, Prime Minister Paul Martin has strenuously resisted calls for a review of fiscal federalism for fear of opening an even bigger can of worms than when the country's political elite tried to tackle the Constitution.

The potential for divisiveness was in evidence last week as Ontario set out to make the case that the current system is about to turn it into a have-not province.

The Alberta surplus could shift the balance of power toward Western Canada.

But Canada's ongoing failure to modernize its national institutions means that this new reality is unlikely to find an appropriate outlet on the federal scene.

In time, this could have as great, or greater consequences for Canada's social union as the failure to accommodate Quebec's constitutional aspirations has had for the country's unity.

[Blastor]

[Blastor]

[Blastor]

[Cat Driver]

I have a question, if the west seperates form Canada will we get rid of Transport Canada in the west?

Cat

[just another pilot]

JBI. I have read the article. The readjustment of the formula for equalization was done to cut off Alberta - that is ok. Was it a "have" province in between 1957 and 1964? (I'm not sure) Ontario has never been a "have not" province because historically the federal government has catered to their manufacturing industry. The new equalization formula took into account Alberta's new found wealth - but that is fair. I have not stated that Alberta was a "have not province."
During the 1930's it was Ontario business who influenced rail rates that screwed Western farmers. They also set grain prices to satisfy the Eastern vote. This was how the multi party system grew in Canada, and this is how Alberta wrangled control over its natural resources - Ottawa's was able to eliminate the Alberta born Progressive Party.
I would not agree that equalization payment directly influenced the Alberta oil patch. That was done by the Alberta government with investment from multi-nationals. The federal government and its electoral should stop taking credit for Albertan's sacfifice.
On the contrary, it is the rest of Canada that has reaped the rewards of Alberta's petroleum industry. And for that, were labeled rednecks.

[. ._]

One of these days, I gotta make it to Alberta. I've never met an Albertan that wasn't crazy. But then, I haven't met many. My purely outsider and ignorant opinion is that Albertans are like Americans. Very YYYEEEE HAAWWW!!! I DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE POOR OR SICK, GET A JOB! Instead of the Ontarian or Manitoban help thy neighbour, a more American @#$! thy neighbor. We're rich, you're not. @#$! you poverty boy!

Something like that. As I say, I'm totally ignorant of the real Alberta, as I have never been there. That's just my outsider impression.

Alberta is one of many unique cultures in Canada, and I think that because all of our geo-political cultures manage to stay in the federation without taking up arms against each other, we as Canadians are pretty darned special!

-istp

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

If anyone has an economic jones...

Surpluses both achieved and anticipated have allowed the government to direct more money toward paying off the accumulated debt. As a result, the cost of paying interest on the debt has dropped from a high of 33 cents of every dollar of revenue collected by the federal government in 1995/96 to 19 cents in 2001/02. Another promising sign is the decrease in the debt-to-GDP ratio, which gives a picture of the size of a nation's debt in relation to the size of its economy. Though still high by historical and international standards, Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio had fallen from 69% in 1995/1996 to 46% in 2001/02.

In 2004, debt:GDP was 500B:1.150T=43%. Interest payments on federal debt is still the gov's biggest expense, as above, in 2004 it was $0.19. Just think how many more sponsorship scandals we could fund if those 19 cents were freed up for other use.

http://142.206.72.67/03/03a/03a_005d_e.htm[/b]

[EI-EIO]

http://www.fin.gc.ca/budget05/bp/bpa2e.htm

The Canadian federal market debt-to-GDP ratio fell to 36.1 per cent in 2003–04, from almost 60 per cent in 1995–96, while the U.S. figure rose for the third consecutive year last year to 37.2 per cent.

[Wilbur]

Western seperatism is not about equalization payments or Alberta's wealth. It is about the political marginalization of the ALL the western provinces, and seperation sentiments are strong in ALL the western provinces.

Equaliztion payments are only one way in which the government hands out money. How many federal agencies, their employees and payrolls go to Ontario and Quebec? There isn't one federal government agency HQ'd in BC, Alberta, or Sask! Manitoba has one, the disease control outfit. What percentage of federal contract dollars go to Ontario and Quebec companies? You can bet a disproportionate amount.

Western Canadians understand that the areas of greatest population will and should have the greatest say in how the country is governed. But what we can not continue to live with is the status quo whereby Ontario has virtually the only say in how the country runs. The central government has an obligation to address the needs, desires and aspirations of all Canadians, not just those from southern Ontario. The old Reform party proposed the notion of the EEE senate to help bring some balance and a fair distribution of political influence and power. Unfortunately, the Liberal party has steadfastly refused to even consider any changes to the current system that would see a more equitable distribution of power.

The Liberal fools now think they are doing somthing to address western alienation by holding some meetings in the west. All they are doing is throwing more gas on the fire as any clear thinking person sees this for what it is; insulting tokenism. If they want to reduce western alienation they are going to need to make substantive changes. Changes such as senate reform, distributing federal agency HQ's proportionally across the country, awarding contracts on the basis of the bids rather than pork barrells, and dropping the requirement for bilingualism with senior government jobs, to name a few things.

Western alienation/seperation is not about greed and oil money. It is about our ability to influence federal politics proportionally to our population. Under the current system, we have no influence at all. Oil/resource money is not a reason to seperate, it just provides the means to do so if those from central Canada remain unwilling to listen and include the west in federal decision making.

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

EI, you're right the 1.15T GDP was from 2002. In any event the interest pmts are still (2004) quite sizeable, ie .19/tax dollar collected.

[fanspeed]

@#$! I hate stupid fucking rednecks. I think I've also had one too many, but I still hate fucking stupid fucking rednecks. Assholes.

[fanspeed]

all you fucking assholes who want to leave, go ahead. It's no great loss to the rest of us, as long as you leave the country when you do it. We'll also be saving money when your asshole kids grow up, because we won't have to pay their fucking welfare.

[just another pilot]

Every village has one...

[Siddley Hawker]

An interesting word, 'redneck.' It can trace it's roots to those people who used to work outside, farmers and loggers and such, those people who do a honest day's work. The 'red neck' meant that the backs of their necks became sunburnt.

It 'pears to me that the word 'redneck' has been hijacked, has become a perjorative, used by those on the left of the political spectrum to describe someone who disagree with their ideals.

[hz2p]

"redneck" is simply a code phrase used by long-haired, dope-smoking, granny-glasses-wearing, granola-eating, bicycle-riding, bearded, lock-me-to-the-gates-of-Litton, tree-hugging idiotic lefties which means, "I don't like you".

This is supposed to bother you greatly, but what should really bother you is if the lefties like you, and agree with you. Then you've got a serious problem.

What also bothers me at least, is that at least some of these idiotic lefties may actually have pilot's licences. Someone as dense and incapable of understanding logic and physics as that shouldn't be pushing a lawn mower or operating any kind of motorized machinery, let alone flying an aircraft (shudder).