Buffalo C-46 at Deline.

[fish4life]

Yes to clarify I meant feather by fx, typing on a touch screen leads to more shorthand. What I'm saying is most turbo props have multiple ways to insure the engine is feathered and even a windmilling free spool turbine shouldn't keep you from maintaining altitude. It looks like the crew did a good job but a one engine out scenario should never put a crew of an aircraft this size into a situation where they have to "put it down" somewhere it should be able to safely get them back to an airport even an hour away. This isn't a Navajo, what if this poor guys were doing some charter work in the high arctic would they they just have to hit the ground somewhere in between airports?

You clearly have no idea what your talking about.

Can a C-46 maintain altitude on one engine with the other windmilling or not?

Someone said a c-46 won't maintain altitude with one engine out and the other windmilling and if that's true I think it's insane that is legal / still allowed / anyone would even want to fly something like that. Personally I like guaranteed performance where I know if things go south with one engine the other one will still get me home safe.

[boeingboy]

Can a C-46 maintain altitude on one engine with the other windmilling or not?

Someone said a c-46 won't maintain altitude with one engine out and the other windmilling and if that's true I think it's insane that is legal / still allowed / anyone would even want to fly something like that. Personally I like guaranteed performance where I know if things go south with one engine the other one will still get me home safe.

It's easy to take comfort in things you dream up and have no clue about.

Was it windmilling? or was it dead and not feathered?

You seem to think a turboprop can plod it's way along all fine and dandy with a prop that has not feathered and an engine out. While a few planes may be able to hold altitude (with difficulty)- an unfeathered prop is a HUGE deal. There is an incredible amount of drag produced. There is no standard anywhere that manufactures need to show an aircraft will maintain altitude with an unfeathered prop. Period.

[stone69]

I must be missing something here. The question seems to be can a C 46 maintain altitude with one engine out and the other windmilling.As the C 46 is a two engined airplane the answer is fairly obvious to me....

[oldtimer]

I wonder if the "grandfather" clauses are still in effect whereby one engine inoperative performance was not as big a deal pre WW11 as it is now and the airplanes met the regulations when the regulations were in their infancy compared to now.
I seem to recall earlier versions of the CARS that certain reciprocating engine propeller driven large (705) aircraft used as an all cargo airplane were exempt from net take-off flight path requirements. I was unable to locate chapter and verse before I was called away. And I wonder if the engines will still produce original rated power on the 100LL gas we have now.
If one looks at the regulations closely with a callous eye, and what is allowed for all cargo operations vs passengers, it is clear that most people, regulators and operators consider freight dogs expendable.
Just a thought.

[NotDirty!]

I must be missing something here. The question seems to be can a C 46 maintain altitude with one engine out and the other windmilling.As the C 46 is a two engined airplane the answer is fairly obvious to me....

I don't think there is any twin engine aeroplane that can maintain altitude with one engine out and the other one windmilling.

[stone69]

that was my point.... a twin engined airplane is not going to go very far with one engine out and the other one windmilling.... whoever asked the question knows absolutely SFA

[Justjohn]

that was my point.... a twin engined airplane is not going to go very far with one engine out and the other one windmilling.... whoever asked the question knows absolutely SFA

ACTUALLY

The Dash 8 ( classic or Q ) is certified to CLIMB and Maintain, at Gross, with 1 windmilling. Service ceiling Is pretty poor though . We practice this in sim as a V1 cut and no FX. It is tuff, but we make it from the runway to Sector, just like the chart shows.

[Oldshoes]

"These old warbirds have had their day and it has passed"

That's a pretty ignorant statement fish4life. If that's the case we better pull all the Beavers out of the sky as well since many of them are only a few year younger than "warbirds" are. Perhaps your first call should be to..let's say...Harbour Air? Yeah...I didn't think so.

[Donald]

"These old warbirds have had their day and it has passed"

That's a pretty ignorant statement fish4life. If that's the case we better pull all the Beavers out of the sky as well since many of them are only a few year younger than "warbirds" are. Perhaps your first call should be to..let's say...Harbour Air? Yeah...I didn't think so.

Sorry there Oldshoes but a passenger or pilot in a beaver does not have the same expectation of continued flight after an engine failure, than a passenger or pilot in a DC-3 or C-46!!

[fish4life]

"These old warbirds have had their day and it has passed"

That's a pretty ignorant statement fish4life. If that's the case we better pull all the Beavers out of the sky as well since many of them are only a few year younger than "warbirds" are. Perhaps your first call should be to..let's say...Harbour Air? Yeah...I didn't think so.

First of all I wasn't talking about beavers and otters, I was referring to the c-46. Second of all Beavers and Otters are as good as anything new. The C-46 is a large aircraft and should be expected to maintain altitude on one engine not make pilots put it down if they can't get it feathered. As JustJohn said the Dash can climb out on one engine with the other windmilling and I'm sure the ATR can do the same.

[stone69]

Justjohn.... Actually what you quote re: the Dash 8 is not at all what the original question I responded to is about.... as I recall the original question it was could a C 46 maintain altitude with one engine out and the other windmilling.... so how the hell does any twin do this ? You're talking about one engine operating.... somewhat different as I see it....

[fish4life]

Ok I re-read the earlier post, I meant maintain altitude with one engine with the dead engine windmilling John knew what I meant and I think most others did as well. Clearly nothing can maintain altitude with no engines running, the issue is the c-46 being unable to maintain altitude with one good engine and the other windmilling

[GyvAir]

I see one slipped by the anti-troll devices..

Hopefully more relevant than someone’s typo where we all knew what was intended anyway:

2015-09-28
Narrative:
At 1803Z, Deline, NT (CYWJ) community aerodrome radio station (CARS) Observer/Communicator (O/C) advised North Bay Flight Information Centre (FIC) that a Buffalo Airways Curtiss-Wright C46 (BFL525) from Yellowknife, NT (CYZF) to Norman Wells, NT (CYVQ) had radioed that they were going to do a forced landing approximately 20 west of CYWJ. At 1815Z, CYWJ advised North Bay FIC that aircraft was now 5nm west and was going to attempted to land at the airport. At approximately 1820Z, the aircraft did a wheels up landing and skidded off the end of the runway. CARS O/C and company confirms that there were no injuries.
2015-09-28
Narrative:
Update from Aviation Operations Centre: The flight was a cargo flight with 4 souls on board. The aircraft experienced #2 Engine failure due to propeller overspeed and loss of oil. The crew elected to divert to Deline, NT, due to high hills around Norman Wells and IFR flight conditions. They made an approach to CYWJ Runway 08 and broke out of the clouds ¾ mile from the end of the runway at about 700’ AGL. Once landed all aboard evacuated in accordance with procedures with no injuries.

[arctic_slim]

that was my point.... a twin engined airplane is not going to go very far with one engine out and the other one windmilling.... whoever asked the question knows absolutely SFA

ACTUALLY

The Dash 8 ( classic or Q ) is certified to CLIMB and Maintain, at Gross, with 1 windmilling. Service ceiling Is pretty poor though . We practice this in sim as a V1 cut and no FX. It is tuff, but we make it from the runway to Sector, just like the chart shows.

To add to that, even with the gear still down it will climb out. It will be a sloppy climb, but in the sim at least, it will climb out.

Anyway, whatever happened the crew managed to control it down and walked away, well done to them.

[Caracrane]

We had a failure at the prop's hub kind of 10 years ago causing a blade to feather with a perfect running engine on one of our 215.

[Caracrane]

[FAR25 is different!... Rules are not the same. Alternate feather for example.

quote="fish4life"]

Explain to me why these are still legal then? Is it not time to retire the old girls, when everything else this size has to make accelerate stop distances and have guaranteed engine out climbs how are these allowed to operate?

Name me an airplane that will climb out on one engine with the inop engine not feathered? Not many if any.
Add to that possible icing, and.....say.....3/4 of gross weight....


Thats not a standard that is required to be met at all.

If this was a turbo prop it would have had a much greater chance of not having a windmilling propeller due to power plants that have more fail safes with multiple ways to fx the engine. Also the other engine on most turbo props can handle well over 100% of the rated power rating in a situation like this so I would be willing to bet all ATR / Dash 8 types can handle this situation. These old warbirds have had their day and it has passed.[/quote]

[ansonchappell]

There are four C-46's on the register. Apparently, Buffalo owns three, including TXW. It appears that AVO and TPO are flying.

I believe TPO has sat as a parts machine since it returned to Buffalo Airways from FNT a couple years ago. That being said, I'd put money on Joe stripping down TXW and getting TPO airworthy again pretty quick.

Can confirm that TPO is no longer in their yard and was towed into the hangar September 28th. It has no engines on it and has sat outside since they flew it home from Gimli.

[pelmet]

How is the quality of Buffalo's maintenance. Did it have anything to do with...C-46 Deline, C-47 YZF, Electra YZF, C46 gear issue YZF?

Maybe not, perhaps the maintenance is excellent. I am just curious.

[Siddley Hawker]

My question was if there had been an engine failure with a failure to feather or if they had had a runaway prop. I don't know of any twin which can maintain level flight with a runaway prop. The G1 was well powered, two 1900 dry hp engines for an airplane that weighed 36,000 lbs all up, but there was a drift down procedure for an overspeeding prop that refused to feather, either manually, by autofeather or induced autofeather. As I recall it was a couple of hundred feet per minute and the VMCA was outta sight, something like 140 kt with the flaps up and 135 with t/o flap.

[Buschpielot]

It's been a lot of years since I flew the 46 but if I recall correctly the WWII vintage freighters did not have to meet engine out performance standards or accelerate / stop standards. V1 (89 kts ??) was usually 4000' - 4500' down a 5000' runway on a warm day. If the Aviation Gods decided it was your day for excitement just shy of V1 the expander tube brakes weren't going to get you stopped. When I signed on it was made clear to me that it wouldn't maintain altitude on one engine even with the other feathered and that if an engine went shortly after rotation you would need to have the luckiest day of your life to make back around to the runway.

[concorde88]

Glad everyone is okay and walked away from it.

[Siddley Hawker]

Glad everyone is okay and walked away from it.

You'll get an amen from me on that one.

[airway]

OK, here is my speculation of a possible scenario for this accident, purely based on the information in this thread and the pictures:

# 2 engine failed, it partially feathered, aircraft was barely able to maintain altitude with difficulty (probably was in a slow descent). Also, yaw and roll control were significantly degraded . Weather conditions were bad (ceiling only a few hundred feet above the ground).

Diverted to the nearest airport. Found the appropriate approach plate for that airport (maybe had never been there). Set up the navaids for a straight in approach with a possible tailwind while still trying to trouble shoot the problem with the engine. Tried to give a basic approach brief, and talk to the FSS.

During the approach they discover the the gear and flaps are inoperative (SH#T!!). There is also some icing on the aircraft The Facebook pictures clearly show the flaps were not down. They have to maintain a higher approach speed because of this.

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=569DC488

With all this crap happening they are still able to complete the approach and see the runway and be in relatively good position to land.

Unfortunately for them, they have never landed an airplane gear up and zero flaps either in a simulator or for real, as this scenario is highly unlikely.

They flare and pull the power off on the good engine, but the frigging thing floats halfway down the runway because they had to keep their speed up on approach, and the airplane is a lot cleaner than normal (no gear and flaps). Finally with the end of the runway approaching they just nose the plane onto the runway, but slide off the end, with major damage to the plane but no injuries.


If something like this happened, I would congratulate the crew for a well handled emergency under great stress.

[godsrcrazy]

Sorry to poke holes in your theory.

1. Yellowknife - Norman wells - Deline - Yellowknife is part of what Buffalo calls the Valley run and they fly it a few times a week so the crew would be very Familiar with Deline
2. I suspect if the #2 didn't completely feather and they were having trouble holding altitude Deline may have been their only option. I don't recall how high the mountain is in direct track from Yellowknife to Norman wells but i believe it is 5,000 plus feet. So they may have been concerned about clearing that.
3. If #2 did not completely feather and they couldn't hold altitude and only had 200 foot ceiling by the time they saw the ground they may have not had time to put the gear are flaps down. If you already can't hold altitude i certainly wouldn't add drag like gear our flaps until i had the runway as it would only speed up my rate of decent. If there was only 200 feet if they were not perfectly lined up to the runway they were going in were every they could as they probably did not have enough power to go around. I personally would have picked a road rather then the runway. In the event me our my crew needed a medieval out i wouldn't close the only way for someone to come get me. Unless Deline grew a lot it is a community of 500 our less people with a nursing station that has limited capacity to look after anyone beat up in a crash.

Just me 2 cents

[airway]

. In the event me our my crew needed a medieval out i wouldn't close the only way for someone to come get me. Unless Deline grew a lot it is a community of 500 our less people with a nursing station that has limited capacity to look after anyone beat up in a crash.

Just me 2 cents

Hey Gods, don't make me go all medieval on you.

Some good points. I still think I would be at least trying to get the gear and flaps down at some point , as there would be no chance of a go around.