I CAN'T LAND A C172

[NeckStrain]

That surely wouldn't work, I'd like to think a PAPI can be seen through fog, low visibility. Maybe some thick cardboard would work though, may be a fire hazard if the PAPI is over a grassy area and it gets a little heated.

What this thread has proved to me more than anything, is that there is no ONE way to land a C172 and that everyone's figured out a way that works for them & through practice, I will too, which is a relief.

When on final put a sticky note on the window over the papi.

It's more effective if you actually put the sticky note over the papi itself.

Don't forget to take it off again when you're done.

[praveen4143]

If you're at an aerodrome with a ground station or tower and if they aren't busy, you could very simply request that the PAPI or VASIS be turned off when you approach for landing. If there's no relevant traffic they might just turn it off for everyone

Adding to your plan to stick a small piece of tape on the windshield marking where to aim, on a C172, try to keep the aim point roughly the part of the windshield just above the compass when seen from your normal sitting position. You could stick a small piece of non-permanent tape there and make sure the runway doesn't come below it and stays relatively in the same spot. I usually say that on final, pitch for airspeed and power for altitude. Works fairly well.

[PilotDAR]

tower and if they aren't busy, you could very simply request that the PAPI or VASIS be turned off when you approach for landing.

And while they're at it, they can ask the sunbathing girls to cover up, the cool Porsche on the airport road to pull into a garage, and the pretty sunset to cloud over, so you're not distracted . Better to focus on what you're supposed to be watching.

An aspect of piloting is prioritizing distractions, both visual, audible, and when you make a passenger barf, odours. You gotta learn to ignore, and focus on flying!

[NeckStrain]

I don't know where PilotDAR flies out of, but it's getting on my cross country list of destinations for FULL STOPS!

I agree with about prioritizing distractions, but pilots tend to be perfectionists when it comes to flying, and seeing a bad PAPI just rubs me the wrong way like I can do better than that!

they can ask the sunbathing girls to cover up, the cool Porsche on the airport road to pull into a garage, and the pretty sunset to cloud over, so you're not distracted

[NeckStrain]

B737s and Dash 8s land regularly, so I don't think they'd turn it off.

Perfect!!! I've heard a LOT of great things about aiming just above the compass! Thank you for reminding me of that!

request that the PAPI or VASIS be turned off when you approach for landing -- try to keep the aim point roughly the part of the windshield just above the compass when seen from your normal sitting position

[photofly]

I don't know where PilotDAR flies out of, but it's getting on my cross country list of destinations for FULL STOPS!

CYTZ has a nude beach adjacent the threshold of 08.

[PilotDAR]

I've heard a LOT of great things about aiming just above the compass!

If you did that in one of my planes, your glide path would be about 75 degrees nose down. My C 150M, with the compass glued mid windshield would only have you doing 50 degrees or so down. Just use the sight picture, and get used to the cues, as every other pilot in history has...

CYTZ has a nude beach adjacent the threshold of 08.

'Was empty today

[Black_Tusk]

Do you know what a point of zero movement is?

[NeckStrain]

I'm guessing you are referring to the point on the runway that stays in the same spot on your windshield, not moving up (you're too low) or down (you're too high) during the approach.

Is that what you're referring to ?

Do you know what a point of zero movement is?

[PilotDAR]

you are referring to the point

Yeah, it's this point thing which is prolonging the distraction here, seeking a point, searching... fixating, and it may not even be the right point . Allow your perception to gaze, and take in the whole panorama. Watch what seems to change perspective, and what changes less or none. Don't search fro points, then fixate when you think you've found them, take in the whole scene.

When I was learning to fly the helicopter, I was having trouble maintaining a steady hover sometimes. My very wise instructor drew my attention to the fact that I was steely focused on a point right in front of the helicopter ("you gotta be really good to do that" he explained). I allowed the whole scene to flow in to my perception through the bubble, and hovering became much easier.

We'll leave the discussion of the perception of curved final approaches to further into your learning - there are a number of ways to land a 172.

[Cat Driver]

I'm guessing you are referring to the point on the runway that stays in the same spot on your windshield, not moving up (you're too low) or down (you're too high) during the approach.

Is that what you're referring to ?

No that is not what I am referring to.

When judging height above the runway "" after the flare " to the level attitude is what I am referring to.

Far to many instructors teach looking at the far end of the runway to judge height for the hold off and touch down segment of the landing.

You can not accurately judge height by looking that far ahead.

Where the point of apparent movement of the runway towards you ends is the point ahead of the airplane that is the further est ahead your center of sight line you should be looking for best height judgement and that point is dependent on height above the runway and speed over the runway.

At fifteen feet above the runway which is where a light training airplane is flared from the approach attitude to the level attitude and the speed is roughly 60 to 70 knots for most light training aircraft there is a point ahead of you where the apparent movement of the runway ceases to move towards you, that point is about five hundred feet ahead...

....you should not be looking any further than that ahead or your height judgement will be less accurate.

I am very well aware that many will disagree with my teaching methods, however I have been teaching flying for over fifty years and much of the teaching was advanced flying skills....which accurate height judgement close to the ground is.

Here is an experiment you can do but before you attempt it be sure you have a very experienced teacher as your safety pilot who can make sure you do not kill yourself.

Plan your approach to simulate flying over trees fifty feet above the runway and when past the trees immediately drop the nose to a forty five nose down attitude and plan to level off at two feet above the runway in one smooth change of attitude.

If you are looking at the far end of the runway there is no way in hell you will safely be able to perform this maneuver...and that is why you need the safety pilot.

Thus looking to far ahead is counter productive to accurate height judgement close to the ground.

You can experiment with the " where apparent movement of the ground towards you is while driving your car.

Look ahead at the center line dash marks next time you are driving and you will note that the lines will look at start moving towards you about five hundred feet ahead.

That is " Where apparent movement toward you ceases " that I am describing.

[Black_Tusk]

I'm guessing you are referring to the point on the runway that stays in the same spot on your windshield, not moving up (you're too low) or down (you're too high) during the approach.

Is that what you're referring to ?

Do you know what a point of zero movement is?

Yes. While I agree with everyone elses comments here about observing the full picture, understanding what a point of zero movement is and how to adjust it with attitude and power will help you greatly in the future. Especially if you fly in and out of short strips. It allows a nice constant descent and the ability to adjust well in advance without having to increase your rate of descent low to the ground in order to attempt to hit a point. Again, not really an issue on 7000 foot runways, but on 1800 foot runways it helps. I often saw my new FO's fly fairly pitchy approaches and push the nose down near ground to try to hit a spot, or attempt to hit an at least an area. The problem is now your airspeed increases, and that will affect how long you float and how much energy you need to bleed off in the flare.

It will also help a ton when you start doing power off 180*'s for your CPL flight exam.

[NeckStrain]

UPDATE:

Took a flight around 1700 - winds 310 @ 10 - gusting 15 - right hand circuit RWY 33.

Kissed the runway 7 / 8 landings! One of them I even had to do a tight base and final to allow a Jazz flight to depart on time!

The best tips that worked were:

1) Raising the seat

2) Not touching the throttle on final , keeping airspeed between 70 - 80 (not dicking around with it as someone suggested)

3) When doing any correction, quickly correcting the other way, kind of like FLUTTERING the elevator, pull, push, pull, pull, pull, push, pull, to maintain the proper attitude

4) Looking at the midway point between the aircraft and end of runway

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR TIPS! THEY REALLY REALLY helped me! & now I'm writing my PSTAR and doing my solo this week!!!