French ATC

[cyyz]

While it won't do anything to make people speak english on the radio, a new requirement to get any license in Canada will be an English test. This is a new ICAO requirement that TC expects to bring in around 2007 (last I heard).

ROFL, so they'll be doing the TC exams in English?? <HAHA> no more pilots in Quebec...

PS. Has anyone done a French TC exam? And how was the wording, I'm sure they wouldn't play semantics and other mind games on those ones...

[Louis]

TC does its grammar and semantics game in both official languages.

But in addition, you sometimes get downright unintelligible translations in the French version.

They at least seem to be somewhat aware of the problem...
Want to know their solution? Give out both the French and English versions of the exam at the same time...

Goodbye,

Louis

[yodan]

Up until the post by stEx, I was doing fine, but as a still serving elderly soldier, who was born in Quebec and live in Alberta, I take exception to what you refer as your Country.

Make no mistake that soldiers as myself and my elderly predecessors have bought YOUR phuking freedom, and that was for the whole country that I call CANADA. Quebec is still, and hopwfully will remain, a Province. Have the decency of leaving your brainwashed idiotic seperatist idealism out of aviation much less use this forum to insult others like myself who after coming back from other unpleasant parts of the world are happy to come home to Canada

I was born, educated and raised in La Belle Province; I started my private license in Chilliwack, completed it in Fredericton and wrote my private license in English. I started my commercial in Fredericton and finished it in Quebec City and wrote my exam in French. I completed my ME rating in calgary and my IFR in Edmonton. All this time, had Chinese been the generally accepted language of aviation I would have learned it because I LOVE FLYING.

I do admit that, even with a BA in translation, it took a few valuable minutes to decipher the French wording in a radio conversation and I think this is a safety issue. Unfortunately, the burden is more on the shoulders of ATC as they are the ones having to sort this out. I can live with that.

Bilingualism does not imply French/English. Even in Quebec, there are many other cultures who contributed to the development of our Country and you don't hear them belly-acking about "Sovereigntism" (In my dictionary that was Sovereignty). They still have their cultural centres and activities, but they are CANADIANS; some of them even learn to fly. And gues what? They speak English.

My personal opinion here is not that French is so much an issue in our world of aviation. It's the arrogance in which French is propelled into the world of aviation to make a political point; and that is WRONG. Therfore it is UNSAFE.

[TTJJ]

This is a bit long winded…sorry.

Just to clarify. English is the international language of aviation only when that type of flying is....er…international. There are many places where English is not used.

When I was doing my DC-10 recurrent training in Denver, there were always some Chinese pilots training there. They couldn’t speak a word of English. They had an interpreter that went into the simulator with them to translate what the American instructor wanted. They had no reason to learn English as their flights were domestic.

If you fly in Russia, China, Argentina etc, and leave the major cities you are required to carry a "navigator" with you. He/She is nothing more than an interpreter. A major airport in Buenos Aires is notamed as "Spanish Only"

There is no requirement for the pilot of an airliner going into the USA to speak English. The only requirement is for SOMEONE on the flight deck to speak English and understand ATC procedures. (The pilot has to understand the procedures as well, but it can be in his own language). I have flown with lots of good pilots into the USA who couldn't ask for a cup of coffee in English.

CYYZ: LOT and FLOT require English because almost all Airline operations in Europe are international because of boarder proximities. The manuals and checklists for airliners are also in English because it is just simpler that way. Makes sense to me.

Knowledge of English of course is growing due to globalization. In a lot of places it is also a sign of being cultured and couth, much as Latin and French were in their day.

However, if you are in the boonies and everyone speaks Martian, then I see no reason to use or ever learn English to fly your plane.

STEx, you might want to tone down that “my country” stuff.

I was a commissioned officer in the Canadian Infantry. I remember very well that in my Combat Leaders Course about 1/3 of the officers were from the 22 Regiment. They were about as French as you could get, and I am about as WASP as you can get.
We crawled in the mud together, froze together, starved together and sometimes bled together, and not once did anyone say “your country” or “my country”. It was just Canada.
STEx, if you have language issues fine, but you don’t live in your country of Quebec, you live in the Province of Quebec, in our country.

Now just so you guys don’t think that I am sitting in my basement and that I don’t get out and about, this is what I have been doing for the past 18 months: Beats the crap out of working in a bank................

JEPPVIEW

[Cargo Pilot]

Very well said Yodan.

That sad fact is, this could have been an intelligent discussion about something that is a dire concern for many many pilots. It has been turned into a French vs English political debate in order to avoid the real issue. Why? Because the "Anti-English" side have nothing else to use in their defense.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how several pilots BROADCASTING in different languages while inbound to the same airfield can be considered safe. So far, all I've heard is "my language, my province, my country, everyone hates me because I live in Quebec."

That ain't reason or reality, much less intelligent.

[oldtimer]

When I went to Russia, ATC enroute controllers spoke a heavy accented English but once into Anydere airspace, the terminal and tower controllers would not or could not speak English.

[Expat]

Last week we were watching BBC here, a Brit, a Polish, two Bosnian and myself. There was a segment on the news where they showed the canadian parliament being defeated. We could see people using translation headsets. My friends could not believe that some MPs in Ottawa needed translation devices.
I had to admit that yes, the majority of english speaking Canadians never bothered to learn a second language. When you are sitting in a room where every one speak at lest three languages, this sounds quite silly.
And as I spend more time outside the country, I realize just how handicapped these people are. Limiting themselves to one language and expecting the rest of the world to learn it ! Fortunately modern English is also the easiest language to learn, even Georges W. learned the rudiments of it!
As far as ATC language, here in Afghanistan, it is the babel tower!
Military pilots use both English and their national languages, the UN has russian pilots who speak net English, our other pilots are South Africans, whom no one can understand. The three airlines use some English and Afghan languages, of which there are four!
So how do you talk to a fuel truck that goes on the runway when you are on final? You don't even try... You buzz him and land pass him!
I think that pilots, because of the nature of their work should make an effort to learn a second or third language. It is a known fact that it will help develop brain cells. And who doesn't need more?
It is really funny to sit here and watch this petty bickering about having to learn french!!
To tell you the truth, I feel shitty for speaking only three languages.
Cheers,

[boby]

everyone hates me because I live in Quebec."

Cargopilot, noboby said that. Do not blow thinks out of proportion, and realise that this topic attacked french speakers right to use their own language, within the limits of their own province. Try to see how insulting that is, especially coming from a majority of pilots who speak only english.

[av8tor_assrope]

"STEx, if you have language issues fine, but you don’t live in your country of Quebec, you live in the Province of Quebec, in our country."

one of the best quotes i've heard in a while. if you want to speak french on the radio (not that I agree with that)……fine!! if you hate the rest of canada……wonderful!!! But you’re a Canadian first…and a so called “quebecer” second.

p.s. french pilot’s wear scarf’s and iron their flight suits

[StEx]

Looks like I am not the one who has an issue with language. The present rules suit me just fine thank you.

I guess some people here can't read or understand. I never said I hated Canada, in fact it is a very nice country. I said it is pretty hard to feel at home when your government prohibits you from speaking your language even if it is an official language of the country.

The use of the safety argument is just an excuse to deny French speaking citizens of your country the right to speak their mother tongue. Not a very welcoming message to me. Please can you tell of a case where safety has been lowered because a controller and a pilot spoke a language in wich they could actually understand each other? Would you rather have a pilot doing the opposite of what he was instructed to do because he didn't undrestand what he was told?

In VFR flying the concept of "see and be seen" is still the basis for traffic separation. What rule is there to ban NORDO flying in uncontrolled airspace?

In IFR flying the guy flying 1000 feet above or below you could be on a different frequency and you would never know he is there. Plus it is not your concern it is the controller's concern. The argument of different languages is a little weak here I would say.

[yodan]

TJ:
I was probably one of these "Vandoos" crawling in the mud with you. That was my Regiment before I was posted to the Airborne.

Also, thanks for putting some level-headedness into all this. You obviously know what you speak of.

StEx:

You still don't get it. I don't hear the Italians in Edmonton wanting to speak their language in uncontrolled airports; nor do I hear the Mennonites in LaCrete speaking low German. THEY ALL SPEAK ENGLISH. Were you granted more rights than the rest of us? NO. So if you don't like the rest of the kids in this sandbox, then take your toys and piss off!!! Maybe one day you'll grow up and get a reality check!

At an uncontrolled airport, if I don't understand what the other pilot says, IT IS A SAFETY ISSUE, not a politically incorrect language issue. And if you don't like "Them apples" then do us all a favor and get out of aviation!!

[TG]

yodan,
StEx is trying to raise ( in a wrong way) the point that "French" is a Canadian official language as well as English. So he is entitled to use it wherever he want that's all.

[cyyz]

TC does its grammar and semantics game in both official languages.

But in addition, you sometimes get downright unintelligible translations in the French version.

They at least seem to be somewhat aware of the problem...
Want to know their solution? Give out both the French and English versions of the exam at the same time...

Goodbye,

Oh my god, you're the smartest person on this board..... I love you ATPLs here I come, French and English, sweet. =)

[TTJJ]

The Royal 22nd Regiment, “Je me souviens”.
Good Regiment

I never served with them but my old Regimental Sergeant Major came from them.
When he was 13, he lied to get into the Army and go to Europe in WW2. They found out his age a year later and shipped his ass home to Quebec. He then got a copy of his brother’s birth certificate, who had been killed in action, doctored it up and re-enlisted. After going through basic training AGAIN under his new identity, he got sent to Italy. He stayed there until the end of the war.

He later got sent to Korea.

He didn’t wear the uniform of Quebec; it said Canada on his shoulder patch.

[ahramin]

Would it be safer to have one language? Of course. No matter what you are doing it would be better to have one language. It's not limited to aviation. Look at the guys building the new European particle accellerator. Not only does it pass through more than one country but the people building it speak a dozen different languages.

The reality is that there are many different languages spoken in the world, and no amount of rhetoric is going to change that. English is the international language of aviation. I think almost everyone could agree that this is a good choice given the circumstances, if not the language. But making it the international language of aviation does not mean that every local pilot needs to learn that language.

The reality is that even international pilots do not necessarily learn english. Many of them learn just enough to work the radio and some learn none at all.

Why is it that South Americans don't think the whole world should speak Spanish, Chinese don't think the whole world should speak Chinese, but North Americans think the whole world should learn to speak English and they should not learn another language?

[kats]

besides bitching?
I mean who gives a f*ck?

If French was not supported by NavCanada, there would not be as many private pilots in Quebec, as many European students in Quebec and aviation would slowly be dying all over the country.
What seems to be the problem? Loss of separation? Never happened (controllers _are_ required to be bilingual even if you are not). Situational awareness? I fail to see the connection, doesn't SA mean you are supposed to know where YOU are?

All these are bad arguments, bilingual airspace works, has been for years, works in every country in Europe (come on, do you think German or Greek pilots speak English in their own country?).

All this reeks of the old English vs. French dispute, and frankly, this is all getting very old.

[Zatopec]

I hope it is clear that not all of us in Quebec support what stEx is saying!

His remarks are the kind that are made by a few that make the whole bunch look alike when it's not at all the reality. Pisses me off, really does!

[StEx]

Yo Yodan,

Don't get all exited, not good for the heart.

I don't intend to follow your recommandation. I have been in this business for 33 years an I intend to keep going a little more.

I guess you still don't understand French is one of the official languages of this country. As far as I know Italian or any other language is not. If Italian was to become an official language here I would be more than happy to give it a good try. In fact, when I fo to a foreign country I always try to speak a few words in the native language and I feel a little stupid I cannot speak the local language.

To make you feel better I would suggest you consider a traffic you don't understand at a non-controlled airport as a NORDO. There is no regulation banning NORDO flights at those airports and it is perfectly safe if you keep your eyes open. Try to come up with better arguments, the ones you are using are pretty lame.

[fredoqc]

-

[Geedub]

I have been lurking around here for some time and only now did I feel the need to post.

I'm a controller at Toronto Centre and we occasionally get tours through the building. A few years back, a pilot from Air France came through and my co-worker showed him around the building. At a point where the AFR guy was being showed the east specialty and the boundary between YZ and UL, my buddy mentioned that it must be nice to fly through UL's airspace and have the ability to speak french. The pilot told him that it was actually a problem and that an "international incident" had occured years ago. The pilot said that AFR uses an english cockpit at all times and that when TC initially started using bilingual ATC, controllers only assumed that AFR would speak french but in fact they wanted to hear english. A phone call was made to the Ops manager in UL that english was preferred and it seemed that everything was OK. Well, the next thing they knew, the Provincial Government of Quebec sent a pretty nasty letter to Government Of France that their national airline MUST use french on the freq when flying through UL. From then on, they complied with the bilingual requirement even though they preferred english.

Just thought I'd throw that little tidbit out there to see what everyone thought of that. Maybe now that I have my first post out of the way maybe I'll be speaking my mind a little more.

[Canus Chinookus]

so what language does your airplane speak? Did these chinese pilots who couldn't understand a word of english have a chinese GPWS? I doubt it. In fact, there's a CVR recording of an asian crew discussing in their own language, seconds before impact, 'what does PULL-UP mean?'.

Sorry I can't remember specifics, but I remember the rest.

[Cat Driver]

The last flight I did from Amsterdam to Bagrum Turkey and return in Sept. I don't recall hearing any language other than English used on any of the many, many frequency changes we made through all those countries. Mind you there were three of us on the flight deck and on the way back I did fall asleep for a while due to our having lost quite a few hours through unforseen delays. So maybe while I was asleep some other language was used.

[TG]

Geedub,
One reason I've heard Air France preferred to use english in QC airspace is...(shock horror! but no offence)
That their pilots are sometime not used to the "heavy" French Quebec accent and expressions.

[rd1331]

StEx you are a moron, how does not being able to speak to other traffic around you safe. Your right NORDO is Legal, doesn't mean its safe. HEY EVERYONE WHEN YOU GET IN UNCONTROLLED AIRSPACE TURN YOUR RADIOS OFF YOU DON"T NEED THEM, ITS COMPLETELY SAFE StEx SAYS SO!

Moron,

As for legal languages and using them. I flew in Central America for a couple years and the pilots down there mostly spoke english. I asked them why one day since spanish is the official language of those country's, they said because its the professional thing to do. English is the ICAO standard. And its not the ICAO standard for internation flights, its the ICAO standard for all aviation traffic. But some countries choose to follow certain aspects of ICAO and not others. Hense why some countries have a lower ICAO rating than others. TikalJets a company based in Guatemala that only fly's to Spanish speaking countries, other than one flight to Belize (english and spanish) uses english in the cockpit.

Oh and StEx even though Belize is a dual language country guess what they only speak english on the radio because it is the SAFE and professional thing to do, even though the majority of people are raised speaking spanish.

[StEx]

Mr rd,

Thank you for your very kind and fine words to me. Is it another demonstration of that form of tolerance and acceptance of differences Canadians like to boast about?

In case you missed it in a previous message, please provide me with an illustration of a breach of safety in Québec because both official languages of Canada were used.

Thank you kindly, StEx