low AME wages throughout Canada

[Pat Richard]

Js - dude, that brings back memories years ago with a WJ -200 when a mech hit the horizontal stab with the cherry picker.
Big screaming match resulted, right in front of the WJ rep. Looked real professional.
Funny thing about WJ, I remember all the crew chiefs going on about the WJ "contract". I know several guys at WJ, and all said KFC was used because they were in a pinch, their usual place could'nt fit them in. Biggest issue was WJ being concerned its pasengers taxiing by KFC would see a WJ tail sticking out of the hangar. KFC's ramp area apparently looked too much like a junkyard. This isn't my wording, but what WJ guys all told me.
Their only giving out letters now? what happened to days off without pay for both crew chief and guilty worker? That was all the rage when I left. Maybe things are looking up there.....sorry, cheap shot.
I'd forgotten about the punching in/out for breaks. They're still doing that, huh? I've never seen, or heard, of any other place that does this.
I guess I should consider myself lucky that I never recieved any letters during my tenure there, 'cause like you describe, it was'nt/isn't very hard to get them there.
Is that crusading cu*t still running HR? She was top of my list for people I'd like to see take a walk in front of a 737 doing power runs. Could'nt stand her.
I don't want to encourage you, but ya, good sheet metal guys are in very short supply.
Talk to CAS if you're really curious. I know they'd be more than happy to hear from you and any other sheet metal techs.

Pat

[jsmetalbashers]

All those beautiful partially amputated Convairs and 271's? Are you drunk man Seriously, I'm picking up some negative vibes here. Thanks for the info on CAS, I talked to Mike yesterday. Have you had any dealings with them? Any info on them? I know they're down in Abbotsford and that place is going to self destruct if they get any more work.All that work is a good thing, creates more competition for us shlepes.

[Pat Richard]

No I have'nt worked for Mike, but I've also never heard anything bad about either him, or CAS, which I think is a big deal considering how many shit outfits there are out there.
It's just a matter of how well you cope with being away from home. But if they' screaming for you guys, maybe you can negotiate a good shift.


Cheers'

Pat

[Wonderdog]

If you AME's look back to a report in 1994, paid by Transport Canada to PriceWaterhouse for a study on attracting maintenance personal to the industry, will know that Transport had to reissue the same study in 1997. We were all sent a copy of these reports. The major point I found most upsetting was the low life expectancy of experienced AME's because of the stuff we put our hands in and the enviroment we enjoy working in.

[Keelique]

Just got my license, M1-M2. And I can't say that I am very proud of it because it is simply taken for granted by the employers. If it was more appreciated ($$$) than we also show more pride. Anyone putting in four years of their life into a profession that pays half of what a damn car mechanic would get, does - in the eye of the public - not have the brains for becoming a car mechanic. So figure it out. And frankly, if it was not for the love of flying and airplanes, or some other private benefits, I would not have chosen that profession either, especially not with those insane working hours and time. I got family.

[Wonderdog]

Keelique, hang in there. I hate fixing dirty cars. Besides, your car can always pull over to the side of the road. A Canadian Aircraft Engineer Licence holder is a responsibilily to certify aircraft within the scope of thier licence. This gives the licence holder another option in life of multi-tasking and an open ticket to see the world, get paid to do it, and hopefully bring some of that experience back to Canada so we all can innovate flight to the next step. Signing a maintenance release for return to service is not a stressful situation. It is just a job that enables an aircraft to get to work. Admirable that you have taken on an occupation that most company administrators only see as BIG dollar figure. That is what that Transport/Pricewaterhouse study brought clear to the industry. Most aircraft companies make 60% of thier profits from maintenance, not revenue flight. People like Mr. Ward have broken the old boys club by making this a deregulated industry, governed by the demand of the customer, not the egos. Canadian flight crews take a lot of shit from engineers, because society looks at the shiney side of the industry, not the clean underbelly. This wage issue is not thier fault. Ninjaneers are highly critical of each other because we depend on one another every moment. I was taught in N.Sask. that the day you quit learning is the day you will kill someone in aviation. Aircraft, engineer, and pilot. Then find a customer.
Any annual maintenance symposium, is an opportunity on neutral ground to express your concerns, opinion, and forward thinking. These were created by engineers in a deregulated industry. I have backed out of aviation as an engineer because the administrators not only are not paying thier bills, but they are using up the last of the experienced AME's like we are a commodity. I have become a charter customer for now that choses the best tool for the job.
Thanks for leaping into the void. Wage parity will increase AME hourly to the $30-$40 range, compensated by a reduction of flight crew/administrion wages. The customer is not willing to pay anymore. Roads are cheaper to build than continually bailing out the aviation industry. Keep your comms open.
Got to go hump a drill.

[motox415]

Being an AME is really for the single man. The hours / schedule make family life hard to say the least. Wages in Canada are a slap in the face compared to other trades. All said I do not think I would have been happy doing anything else. Everyday is a different experience, I have traveled the world and met many interesting people in the process. I have been overseas for the 7 years and everytime I come back and try and get a job in Canada I see the wages and work conditions and unfortunately I am out of country again. Still hoping oneday the conditions will improve. By that time I will probably be retired.

[fmrc3ame]

I must agree with motox415 about the wages. I am out of country right now and the wages are extremely well paid. I find to the people I work with respect your experience and hold you in high regard. The difficulty though as mentioned earlier is the long periods of time away from family and friends. You have to weigh what you want to get out of aviation. The company I work with treats you quite well including flight benefits in Business or First Class. If Canadian aviation were to treat their maintenance employees like this more people would stick around a little longer.

[Keelique]

Hi Wonderdog,
I appreciate your comments, I truly do. Just to let you know.

Keelique, hang in there. I hate fixing dirty cars. Besides, your car can always pull over to the side of the road. A Canadian Aircraft Engineer Licence holder is a responsibilily to certify aircraft within the scope of thier licence. This gives the licence holder another option in life of multi-tasking and an open ticket to see the world, get paid to do it, and hopefully bring some of that experience back to Canada so we all can innovate flight to the next step. Signing a maintenance release for return to service is not a stressful situation. It is just a job that enables an aircraft to get to work. Admirable that you have taken on an occupation that most company administrators only see as BIG dollar figure. That is what that Transport/Pricewaterhouse study brought clear to the industry. Most aircraft companies make 60% of thier profits from maintenance, not revenue flight. People like Mr. Ward have broken the old boys club by making this a deregulated industry, governed by the demand of the customer, not the egos. Canadian flight crews take a lot of shit from engineers, because society looks at the shiney side of the industry, not the clean underbelly. This wage issue is not thier fault. Ninjaneers are highly critical of each other because we depend on one another every moment. I was taught in N.Sask. that the day you quit learning is the day you will kill someone in aviation. Aircraft, engineer, and pilot. Then find a customer.
Any annual maintenance symposium, is an opportunity on neutral ground to express your concerns, opinion, and forward thinking. These were created by engineers in a deregulated industry. I have backed out of aviation as an engineer because the administrators not only are not paying thier bills, but they are using up the last of the experienced AME's like we are a commodity. I have become a charter customer for now that choses the best tool for the job.
Thanks for leaping into the void. Wage parity will increase AME hourly to the $30-$40 range, compensated by a reduction of flight crew/administrion wages. The customer is not willing to pay anymore. Roads are cheaper to build than continually bailing out the aviation industry. Keep your comms open.
Got to go hump a drill.

[loscar102566]

Besides wages, now more than before, employers are pressuring more and more the AMEs to carry out work in such small amount of time, so their A/C is always on line, that human factors do not come into effect no longer. It is hard to find a good paying job with wages less than 25 hr and have to put up with exploitation by the employer. No thanks. I dont even know how some of this companies are in excistance, is it not there an organization call DOT to make sure not every Dick,Tom and Harry that opens an AMO has enough qualifications to carry on bussiness. Don't get me wrong, 70% of the AMO's I have worked at are worthy of a certificate, the other 30% should have never even been granted a certificate. Any body can make an MCM and a MPM but if policies and presidures are not followed with in the company why even have this publications. You want to keep your job, the one that took you a while to get, well you are going to have to get used to put up with Dicks, Toms, nad Harryy, and put your licence in jepurdy.

[expeditionsnorth]

Hi Loscar. While I agree with some of the things you say I must also say that you cannot expect an employer to have the same qualifications as the employees. Employees are hired because they have something the employer needs from us, namely qualifications. So, I think that everybody who got licensed as an AMO starts out under the same conditions as everybody out. Then the grow from there and the differences come into effect after the licensing, not before. Now, I think you are right about the slave driving underpaid working conditions. I just got licensed and I already (!) consider getting out of this mess again, mainly because as a fresh guy I don't want to get stuck like so many other fellows that don't have a clue what else to do with their life after tn years of this type of professional lifestyle. There are so many things a guy can do ith their education, getting into the habit of accepting very low pay for this type of responsibility is not acceptable for a family man. The are plumbers and pizza delivery guys out there that are literally laughing about us idiots. Still love airplanes, though.

[loscar102566]

Hello expeditionsnorth, thank you for clearifying that for me, yes, you are right about every AMO starts with the same requirements and is there after that they should keep up with the regulations. I am tired of having to performed specialized tasks with a bubble protractor, or having to wait for somebody to lent us a 7000$ boroscope to perform and inspection. I know that this equipment is expensive but it comes with the obligation that there should be aducuate tooling to perform the AMO maintenance scope. Any ways I have to get out of this industry for medical reasons but I wish every young engineer to do what you love doing, that is why we all started in this career. I love aero planes all types.

[Ducky]

This forum has happened before. History does repeat itself.

A recent survey found that more employees would prefer recognition of their work than a wage increase. This survey had to do with the retention of employees. As we are seeing, throwing money at things doesn't always rectify the problem because the money always seems to get stuck at the top of the food chain and not much, if any, trickles down to the people actually doing the work. If the amount of money that CEO's and the suits gave themselves in raises was put towards perks and training for the employees, I'm confident that those companies would do very well and in 10 years time have a company full of experienced and happy people.

Everytime a plane goes through the air, I look up and think to myself that I have enough knowledge to fix that plane if need be. I also realize that the way I have been treated in the industry as an AME doesn't make me want to work in the industry every again, unless I am in between a rock and a hard place. I take what I have learned and will apply it to all of my future endeavours in another career.

Sure Aviation will indeed strangle itself because of it eventually. The quality of work will slide to the point that confidence in flying will cause the resurgence of travelling by train.

If you truly love what you do, you will never work a day in your life.

[planeguy]

trains?? i don't know about all that. but i would say that aviation maintenance will grind itself into the ground as operators don't really give two feces about their employees because we are a dime a dozen, owners are rich because they know how not to spend money, and airplanes will always be amazing. the formula equates to operators replacing AME's who demand more from cheap owners and these replacement AME's are available because of the 'love for airplanes'.

eventually, the industry will sink so low, especially in canada, to the point where it will raise its standards back to what it is now. operators don't think of the consequences of human factors even though they preach it, and will continue to squeeze as much labour, in the shortest time possible, for the lowest pay. operators push employees more and more everyday, with no consideration to the possible detrimental consequences.

i'm a new ame and have realized that 95% of operators care about the quality of maintenance performed but don't think that quality is somewhat associated to pay and time. thinking that the best job performance is in no way related to paying decent money or time taken on the job is suicidal.

it's too bad that most amo heads whether dom's or maintenance managers have little to no modern management or business formal education that links happy employees with profitable earnings through productive work. ah well, a very large portion of the newer generation of apprentices, and AME's are quickly frowning on the old school, as it progressively dies.

[motox415]

Planeguy, wishfull thinking. I don't think aviation maintenance will ever grind itself into the ground. The problem is we are dime a dozen and we will work for that dime. I have always heard how there is a shortage around the corner because of all the retirements. Another load of crap that I think is driven by the Education Ind. Correct on "the love of airplanes" is part of the problem.
What will eventually drive up the wages will be when the younger crowd realizes what this industry is all about and choose a different trade. This I think is starting to happen as we speak.
As for Management, the good ones are few and far between. Do not get me wrong, I have come across some really good people but for every one there are 5 that got where they are because they were a good Kiss Ass or Bull Shitter or just plain dangerous. And the "Old School" attitude will get passed down. What are the odds of someone who got treated like dirt will not do the same when they get into a management position. Most will not because of integrity. What will fix this industry? That is the million dollar question. Untill then we will keep saying how much responsability we have and important our job is blablabla what ever to keep the ego going. We all twist wrenches, paid peanuts. If you dont like it change professions.

[expeditionsnorth]

There is talk that the trend in hiring maintenance guys is going towards hiring more and more contract AME's. I can visualize that already, we all work for a temp. work agency for AME's. They take 30.00 per hour and give you 20.00. Oh Lord, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing ...

[judge]

A follow up to my Jan 9 comment.....As of the end of this month I am out of this pathetic industry!!! Finally! And I've only been in it for 5 years...Going back into construction, which, as everyone knows, is a booming industry here in Calgary. Now the absolute biggest mistake I can make is cutting a piece of wood wrong. And for that huge responsibility I get to work Mon-Fri, DAYS, make more money than this industry will ever pay, and I get to see my wife again. I wonder what she looks like now....
Anyway, looking fwd to the end of these next 2 weeks. I hope each and every one of you will be following my example in the near future. Give your heads a shake and realise how crazy it is to stick it out. Aviation will NEVER get better. It's time to wake up and smell the stale coffee.
See you guys later!

[zaac]

judge:

Good decision especially if you have kids. I got out 3 years ago and made 90,000 last year and it's only going to go up. I plan on leaving my 3 kids a million each after tax. The oil patch is going to stay busy for a long time. 200,000 wells in Alberta and they estimate that will double in 15 years. That leaves a lot of wells to service. What are these aviation people going to leave their kids when they die? Next to nothing I would guess. I think it will be harder for kids to make a living in the future than it is for us now. That money is going to come in handy. I love flying airplanes too but it's a little selfish when you have others to consider. If I was single, well, that could be a different story.

Enjoy having money in the bank.

[motox415]

Good to hear you guys are doing well outside the industry. Good luck and I might be the guy beside you swinging a hammer or playing in the oil patch shortly.

[Pat Richard]

Congratulations.

Sounds like you've both made a choice for the better.

I would love to see aviation at least pay comparably, but honestly don't expect to experience that in my tenure. Even if 90% of us banded together to make a change, the mouthfoaming 10% will continue to sell out, and lower the bar.
The masses of noobs the schools are pumping out will, I think, also be detrimental to betterment of conditions, once they start to be licensed. That worries me. More competition where it isn't needed.


Best plan of action would be for a good number of experienced AME's to desert , and let the biz shit itself.
Maybe wishful thinking on my part, but I'll be grinning ear to ear if it ever
happens, and I sure as hell hope it does.
It ranks up there with winning the lottery, with about the same odds of happening

[64cruzr]

I'm doing some research right now for a new career in the next few years. Not only is the substandard pay and benefits driving this, but also the lack of choice due to the fact I won't work night shifts anymore. I have found day shift locations after a bit of job searching, but one of them gave me an offer of $21 to start, Ummm, I've been wrenching for 10 years and that's the best you can do, give me a freaking break. I'm tired of the lack of choice, the attitude that the owners are being so generous with my compensation that leaves no room for advancement on that aspect. They keep touting that we're being well paid, but how come I'm not moving forward financially like so many other trades are. I think if I had to go back and do it again, I wouldn't change a thing, I've been pretty successful in my career, and have enjoyed the experience and adventure, but I think there's a lot more to offer from other careers.

You know, I used to think that the DOM position was the end all be all of the AME career, but man, watching the crap my boss has to deal with on a daily basis, they can keep it. So, now what? I could stay here for the next 10 or 20 years, nah, no pension here, ah, go to AC, been there, hated it, go to TC? hahaha. Well, I guess this is what I'm getting at with the lack of choice in our profession. I'm just wondering if anyone else is feeling this aspect of our career.

So, Pat, maybe your wish of more and more engineers deserting the industry will come true, it seems to be starting.

[fmrc3ame]

Deserting the industry just won't happen! Look at the guys that have already left and are raking in the good coin. They keep coming back for a glimpse at what is going on. Maybe they still have friends here but I think the reality is they have the aviation bug in their blood.

The truth to our trade though is the fact that everyday you face new challenges and change. Each day is different and each challenge has a different result. This job challenges you in many ways and at the end of the day you feel you have accomplished something.

I have been wrenching for 21 years now and still love it everyday. Oh I agree the wages are not where they should be and most likely never will be. Maintenance work is a thankless job in every industry, but who said we got into this work for praise. As long as I can work on those flying machines I'll be happy, but I know my wife would be happier if I brought home a better paycheque.

[Nightshiftzombie]

I have been wrenching for 21 years now and still love it everyday.

Is there a particular pharmaceutical product that helps you maintain your outlook?

[Fox 3]

Best plan of action would be for a good number of experienced AME's to desert , and let the biz shit itself.

Um, problem is who is going to start? you? me? I doubt it.

[aero-singidunum]

You actuallu have tools? For all 21 year?
You need little China Girls to teach you some other things bro!
I will be on shift Wed and Thu night, go on chat, you Chinaman