Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

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shimmydampner
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by shimmydampner »

photofly wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:39 am You simply cannot say this isn't a grand conspiracy, and then describe it, as you do, as a grand conspiracy. You either believe in secret agendas and purposes, which makes you a conspiracy theorist, or you don't. Don't you get that?

People in government, are all doing their level best to govern. You may not agree with what they say, but once you ascribe to them - or to anyone - secret and evil motives, that's conspiracy talk, and it instantly loses you the mantle of respectability and being deserving of being taken seriously.
I suppose my explanation of my position was unclear. I do not believe that our government is explicitly implementing measures for the express purpose of seeing how far they can go with stripping us of our freedoms. However, I do think that they are taking notice of the people's reaction and estimating what they can and cannot get away with. It is for this reason that, while I do not agree with them, I am grateful for things like anti mask protests. I fully believe that masks are effective and in close quarters, we should be wearing them in an effort to curb the spread of the virus. But I am glad that our government meets resistance. I believe an unchecked government has more potential to be devastating to us than a virus that has little effect on the average healthy person.
As for ascribing nefarious motives to politicians, it's fundamentally no different than you ascribing altruistic motives. You have no way of knowing their motives, so by your own logic, your are a conspiracy theorist. Why should I take you seriously? Believing that a group of total strangers who have power over you are all good and all have your best interests at heart is equally as absurd as believing the opposite. For the record, I'm inclined to believe you. I do think the measures being taken are for the greater good. However, I don't believe in black and white in this case and I think you're missing a ton of nuance. Just because the infringement of our rights is happening for a good reason now, doesn't mean that somewhere, someone less altruistic, be it in our own current government or otherwise, isn't observing with great interest just how far we can be pushed before pushing back. Believing that everyone in power over you is good and should be trusted implicitly is naive at best and dangerous at worst. History proves this in spades. Every day, naive, trusting people are taken for fools. That happens a lot less to cautiously guarded, skeptical people willing to stand up for themselves.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by JeppsOnFire »

The impetus behind the 2008 financial meltdown wasn’t conspirators conspiring. It was a smallish group of people who saw the same opportunity, individually, and in aggregate it probably appeared concerted.

Like someone said, I don’t think the fulcrum of change is nefarious conspiracy, rather, its the sheer volume of selfish ambition and it is reactionary not planned.
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pelmet
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by pelmet »

A well known Democrat in the Obama administration and former mayor of Chicago said this.....

“You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before.”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/717228 ... o-to-waste

I am sure that idea enters the mind of many politicians.
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Rockie
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by Rockie »

shimmydampner wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:28 am Every day, naive, trusting people are taken for fools. That happens a lot less to cautiously guarded, skeptical people willing to stand up for themselves.
Haha. Have you turned on a TV lately?
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photofly
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by photofly »

shimmydampner wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:28 amI do think that they are taking notice of the people's reaction and estimating what they can and cannot get away with.
Yes, of course. All governments chart a course somewhere between what they think is the best, and what the people will accept. Usually with an eye on reelection. That's exactly as it should be.
shimmydampner wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:28 am You have no way of knowing their motives, so by your own logic, your are a conspiracy theorist.
Not at all. Read the dictionary definition again. In order to a conspiracy, it's a two part test: the plan has to be both secret, and its intent either unlawful or harmful. If plans are secret but the intent is altruistic, that's not conspiracy. If the plans are harmful, but open, that's not a conspiracy either.
Believing that a group of total strangers who have power over you are all good and all have your best interests at heart is equally as absurd as believing the opposite.
Utter rubbish. I elect a government to govern in the best interests of the country. While there can be, and is, a wide variety of opinions about what is best for the country, there's nothing absurd about believing that politicians aim to do their best for the purposes and intents they openly describe and advocate. If those best interests suit another section or part of the country over mine, as long as those intentions are open there's nothing wrong with it. The purpose of democracy is to allow the electorate to choose between those different intents.
Believing that everyone in power over you is good and should be trusted implicitly is naive at best and dangerous at worst.
Believing that those in power are engaged in a conspiracy to curtail my freedoms for purposes unstated, because I disagree with their policies, is naive at best, and dangerous at worst. That is exactly what is going on in the USA at the moment.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by shimmydampner »

photofly wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:08 am Yes, of course. All governments chart a course somewhere between what they think is the best, and what the people will accept.
Indeed. Unfortunately, sometimes the things they think are best can be things like marching the populace en masse out into rice fields for slave labour and wholesale executions.
photofly wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:08 am Not at all. Read the dictionary definition again. In order to a conspiracy, it's a two part test: the plan has to be both secret, and its intent either unlawful or harmful. If plans are secret but the intent is altruistic, that's not conspiracy. If the plans are harmful, but open, that's not a conspiracy either.
Well, unfortunately you didn't offer a dictionary definition, just a quick google one that fit your argument. The complete Merriam-Webster dictionary definition is:
1: the act of conspiring together
2a: an agreement among conspirators
b: a group of conspirators
No need to be unlawful or harmful or even secret. I can conspire with my wife's friends to throw her a surprise birthday party. Secret, but not harmful. Or I could conspire with my friends to go out for a beer on Friday night. Neither secret, nor harmful.
Utter rubbish. I elect a government to govern in the best interests of the country. While there can be, and is, a wide variety of opinions about what is best for the country, there's nothing absurd about believing that politicians aim to do their best for the purposes and intents they openly describe and advocate.
That's great for you that you blindly trust the government. I personally don't believe they've earned that level of unwavering trust, but I also don't believe they're actively acting against our best interests. My point is, it's also of benefit to the populace as a whole that not everyone has that same level of trust. It acts as a check of their power. Different political views are, on the whole and with a few exceptions, good for balance. If you fail to see how things could turn bad if everyone was as trusting as you, you're not accepting the unfortunate truth that not all people are good. And politicians and those in power, are just people.
Believing that those in power are engaged in a conspiracy to curtail my freedoms for purposes unstated, because I disagree with their policies, is naive at best, and dangerous at worst. That is exactly what is going on in the USA at the moment.
Potentially dangerous, as per recent events in the US, absolutely. But, as it relates to our situation, I don't think that being wary of government curtailing of our rights and freedoms is naive. I think that in light of the many past examples around the world of how it can go horribly wrong for people, it is a cautious and wise position, informed by history.
Since you seem to like definitions as much as I do:
Definition of naive
1: marked by unaffected simplicity
2a: deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment
b: not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation
At the end of the day, I'm not sure why you're being so antagonistic towards me. I've stated that we essentially share the same position as far as I can tell. The only area in which we differ is that I look for bits of value in people's opinions that are different than mine. As far as I can tell, you're just looking for an opportunity to snipe at those with whom you disagree. And that's ok. In much the same way that those you disagree with keep the government in check to a degree, you're keeping a certain amount of nonsense in the avcanada ecosystem in check. Carry on.
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pelmet
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by pelmet »

"As Quebec postpones surgeries, breast enhancements and butt lifts still a go"

Doctors worry better money drawing health-care staff away from COVID-19 fight in public hospitals

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal ... -1.5871519
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photofly
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by photofly »

shimmydampner wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:03 pm Well, unfortunately you didn't offer a dictionary definition, just a quick google one that fit your argument.
.
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No need to be unlawful or harmful or even secret. I can conspire with my wife's friends to throw her a surprise birthday party.
Well, to copy your posture, I did offer a dictionary definition: that's where Google gets it from - a dictionary. You might not agree, but it's pretty clear to me that "conspiracy" involves both secrecy and harm. You might conspire to a surprise birthday party, but that's a very ironic use of the word conspire.

If you want to go to Merriam Webster, here's the first definition for "conspire":
1a: to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or an act which becomes unlawful as a result of the secret agreement
Here's the Collins dictionary:
Conspiracy is the secret planning by a group of people to do something illegal.
Here's the entry from dictionary.com:
the act of conspiring.
an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose:
He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.
I think we're both pretty clear on what a conspiracy is!
shimmydampner wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:03 pm I look for bits of value in people's opinions that are different than mine. As far as I can tell, you're just looking for an opportunity to snipe at those with whom you disagree.
Mm-hmm. You're very funny. That's one of those emotive conjugations, isn't it? I seek out differences on which I comment, but you look for opportunities to snipe?! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation
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photofly
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by photofly »

double post
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by photofly »

And no, I'm not being antagonistic; just pointed out that you said you're not a conspiracy theorist, and then went on to describe the conspiracy theory in which you believe. Then you told me a whole load of stuff with which I disagreed. It's not antagonistic to point that out, is it?
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
shimmydampner
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by shimmydampner »

photofly wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:16 pm If you want to go to Merriam Webster, here's the first definition for "conspire":
1a: to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or an act which becomes unlawful as a result of the secret agreement
And from Merriam-Webster, here's the part you conveniently omitted:
2: to act in harmony toward a common end

Come on photofly, I thought better of you than this.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by shimmydampner »

photofly wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:19 pm And no, I'm not being antagonistic; just pointed out that you said you're not a conspiracy theorist, and then went on to describe the conspiracy theory in which you believe. Then you told me a whole load of stuff with which I disagreed. It's not antagonistic to point that out, is it?
You're deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying. That seems antagonistic, but feel free to provide me with your cherry-picked definition of the word.
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photofly
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by photofly »

shimmydampner wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:40 pm
photofly wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:16 pm If you want to go to Merriam Webster, here's the first definition for "conspire":
1a: to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or an act which becomes unlawful as a result of the secret agreement
And from Merriam-Webster, here's the part you conveniently omitted:
2: to act in harmony toward a common end

Come on photofly, I thought better of you than this.
Are you seriously suggesting that conspiracy has *anything* other than negative connotations? I don't think I'm going to waste time further arguing about what "conspiracy" means. We both know perfectly well.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by shimmydampner »

photofly wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:52 pm Are you seriously suggesting that conspiracy has *anything* other than negative connotations?
I regularly use the word in a manner that is not negative. It's a legitimate use of the word. After all, you brought up its definition. Well....part of the definition. Either your vocabulary isn't broad enough to include the use of the word in all its connotations, or you're playing games by cherry picking definitions as they suit you.
I don't think I'm going to waste time further arguing about what "conspiracy" means. We both know perfectly well.
I thought we did, but now I'm not convinced. Either way, it certainly is a very silly thing to argue about and I commend your decision not to do so any more.
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tsgarp
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by tsgarp »

So......
At this point one year ago we have a booming economy and Trump is on his way to re-election while taking a hard line against China and generally burning down the establishment in the US. During this whole time members of the establishment, especially the left leaning ones, are tossing out all s new of unity, fair play and decorum in their attempts to boot Trump. Some even openly wish for an economic crash to undermine Trump.
Low and behold, out of China (the very country which Trump is giving a very hard time) comes a virus which crashes our economy and allows those governors who wish to, to implement wide spread mail in voting. When Election Day comes, almost all of those mail in votes are for Biden.
If these events don’t make you at least mildly curious, you are either hyper-partisan or a bit dim.
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by Pilotdaddy »

tsgarp wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:51 am When Election Day comes, almost all of those mail in votes are for Biden.
If these events don’t make you at least mildly curious, you are either hyper-partisan or a bit dim.
Yes, mail in voters skewed Biden so it must be fraudulent.

You know what, I have an ice cream truck and the sales skew higher when it's hotter out. Winter, not so much. Of course, the only logical way to explain this is that I'm manipulating the weather so that I can increase my sales. :rolleyes:
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Rockie
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by Rockie »

tsgarp wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:51 am
If these events don’t make you at least mildly curious, you are either hyper-partisan or a bit dim.

That kids is called “projecting”. He learned from his own dimwitted bulls**t sensei who is out on his ass in five days.
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by PilotDAR »

Well, that was five minutes of my AvCanada reading time entirely wasted.
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

tsgarp wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:51 am So......
At this point one year ago we have a booming economy and Trump is on his way to re-election while taking a hard line against China and generally burning down the establishment in the US. During this whole time members of the establishment, especially the left leaning ones, are tossing out all s new of unity, fair play and decorum in their attempts to boot Trump. Some even openly wish for an economic crash to undermine Trump.
Low and behold, out of China (the very country which Trump is giving a very hard time) comes a virus which crashes our economy and allows those governors who wish to, to implement wide spread mail in voting. When Election Day comes, almost all of those mail in votes are for Biden.
If these events don’t make you at least mildly curious, you are either hyper-partisan or a bit dim.
REALLY, do you actually believe what you are saying or just having a bad day. :roll: :goodman: :rolleyes:
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Launchpad1
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by Launchpad1 »

Well, to copy your posture, I did offer a dictionary definition: that's where Google gets it from - a dictionary. You might not agree, but it's pretty clear to me that "conspiracy" involves both secrecy and harm. You might conspire to a surprise birthday party, but that's a very ironic use of the word conspire.
Are you seriously so naive as to believe people in power don't conspire together to do things that they believe are the best things for them to do? Either for their own interests or for the interests of everyone.

Here's a very simple example for you:

Price fixing occurs when companies conspire to set the price of products or services instead of allowing the free market to set the prices naturally. Price fixing is usually either a fixed horizontal or vertical price.Sep 16, 2019
www.investopedia.com › terms › pri...
Price Fixing Definition - Investopedia

Conspiring between individuals happens all the time and not all conspiracies are necessarily for nefarious reasons.

In the example I gave of top government officials perhaps conspiring to use the pandemic to help lower out of control emissions that wouldn't be for a bad reason. It would possibly buy the world some more time to find more advanced renewable energy sources to avert a potential runaway temperature increase.
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photofly
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by photofly »

Conspiring between individuals happens all the time and not all conspiracies are necessarily for nefarious reasons.
I'm not going to argue defintions. I'm happy to go with the clear majority of the dictioniaries in which I looked, which require a two part test to be met for an agreement to be a conspiracy: 1. secret and 2. for a nefarious (definition: wicked, criminal) or unlawful purpose.

Government officials individually supporting or passing laws to, say, to reduce movement, on the pretext of reducing spread of a disease, but really for some other purpose, without discussing their individual secret purposes and without agreeing them one with another - is not a conspiracy, because there is no secret agreement between two or more minds.

Government officials passing those same laws, for the honest purposes of reducing a spread of a disease, and agreeing amongst themselves that there are beneficial side effects, is not a conspiracy: the purpose is neither secret, nor unlawful nor nefarious.

Government officials agreeing between themselves to pass laws to restrict movement in reality for the true purpose of reducing vehicle emissions, while agreeing to announce to the public, falsely, the purpose as being to reduce the spread of a dangerous infection - that would be a conspiracy. I don't believe for a second that is what is happening.
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piperdriver
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by piperdriver »

In a attempt to break up this pissing contest I am going to put this here:

https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/01/tor ... -lockdown/
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by McKinley »

Wow....

Why aren’t suicide/ opioid deaths /deaths due to “ lockdown” public since the start of the pandemic? - they should be displayed alongside COVID.

I’ll leave this here too:

https://greatreset.com/?fbclid=IwAR2_hL ... EOn63Cilok

Look at the fine print:

“ lockdown was great wasn’t it? No commute, leisurely danders around to the corner shop instead of jumping into the car for every journey.......

Instead of going back to the same old, let’s continue our lockdown positive behaviors.. fill in the above and share it in car windows as a reminder.” - Greatreset.com

I’m not denying climate change. I’m questioning who is making the decisions ( the WEF/ Klaus Schwab/ elites) and who is benefiting from these policies? As well as their adherence to these policies. ( Davos summit)
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montado
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by montado »

Que Rockie who will soon double down on masks. And will also ask how pilots who should be so logical could go against the experts, and how we should just follow SOPs. . .
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Rockie
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Re: Ontario Stay Home Order coming in.

Post by Rockie »

montado wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:18 pm Que Rockie who will soon double down on masks. And will also ask how pilots who should be so logical could go against the experts, and how we should just follow SOPs. . .
I think you meant "Cue", and I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about here. Has there been some kind of revolt by pilots against wearing masks?
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