United Airlines hiring goals

[photofly]

Hire the best person for the job. Period. Who cares what their gender or colour is. We should be striving for equal opportunity, not equal outcome. If you want to attract a more diverse people into a particular job do it at the grass routes level, not in preferential hiring practices.

For as long as 93% of airline pilots are men, the opportunities simply cannot be equal.

[digits_]

However, for as long as being an airline pilot is a well paid and respected job, I would like my daughter to have the same access to it as a career as my son; without the extra hurdle of being the only woman in her ground school class, the only woman on the type rating course, and the only worman in the flight deck.

She already has. Why is being the only (fe)male in a class a hurdle?

[montado]

However, for as long as being an airline pilot is a well paid and respected job, I would like my daughter to have the same access to it as a career as my son; without the extra hurdle of being the only woman in her ground school class, the only woman on the type rating course, and the only worman in the flight deck.

She already has. Why is being the only (fe)male in a class a hurdle?

All other things equal, Photofly's daughter has a better shot at being an airline pilot than the son.

[ant_321]

Hire the best person for the job. Period. Who cares what their gender or colour is. We should be striving for equal opportunity, not equal outcome. If you want to attract a more diverse people into a particular job do it at the grass routes level, not in preferential hiring practices.

For as long as 93% of airline pilots are men, the opportunities simply cannot be equal.

They aren’t equal. Women have more opportunities. My wife who is an airline pilot would agree with me.

[photofly]

However, for as long as being an airline pilot is a well paid and respected job, I would like my daughter to have the same access to it as a career as my son; without the extra hurdle of being the only woman in her ground school class, the only woman on the type rating course, and the only worman in the flight deck.

She already has.

Sadly, not. If she did, we’d already have 50% female airline pilots.

Why is being the only (fe)male in a class a hurdle?

Because for as long as she’s the only woman, everything she does and achieves is about being the sole female. If she succeeds, it’s because as a woman she has to work harder than the men. If she fails, it’s because women aren’t as good as men. For as long as there’s only one woman around, she’s both an unwilling representative and an oddity, and that’s stressful.

Read some testimonies from black students who were the only visible minority in their classes. I’ll try to find you some.

[ReserveTank]

. Like most Western men, you are uneducated on the basics of humans and the differences of the sexes.

One of us is, for sure.

Of course, what you're failing to mention is what effect booting White guys from an industry will have:

Severely lowered wages
Extreme competition for few open jobs
Reduction/elimination of benefits
Return of loose or even abusive contract language

I am broadly in favour of those things happening, on the way to "airline pilot" becoming a thing of the past, like "underground coal miner". Jobs monitoring complex machinery that are better operated by computer need to vanish.

You see, it's not about diversity and moral good. It's about resetting the clock on working conditions so that every pilot can work like an Amazon distribution centre slave or an Uber driver. The oligarchy has already firmly established through decades of trial and error that diversity is the way to create a slave class. So what you're promoting is indeed abusive to women and...diverse people. It's slavery, the very thing you believe that you're against.

As I've said, it's all psychology, and you've been tricked.

No I haven't been tricked. I disagree with your premise that diversity means slavery: but your end point is correct, and I support it. Then you can all find something more productive to do. I don't feel any responsibility to protect what you think is important.

However, for as long as being an airline pilot is a well paid and respected job, I would like my daughter to have the same access to it as a career as my son; without the extra hurdle of being the only woman in her ground school class, the only woman on the type rating course, and the only worman in the flight deck.

In one sentence, you want the profession to go away, in another, you want to uphold it for the sole purpose of diversity. The psychology of the ideology is apparent.
Yes, you've been had. Don't feel bad, it took the hard left the better part of 15 years to get its apparatchiks to go pro-corporate. The good news is that you're going to get what you want. I hope that your province turns into the DRC, as you see morally good and fit.

She already has. Why is being the only (fe)male in a class a hurdle?

I had the same question. Diversity makes it to class, yet still oppressed. What a mess of contradiction.

[ReserveTank]

Because for as long as she’s the only woman, everything she does and achieves is about being the sole female.

Well, now hold on...she's in there with all that diversity. Are you saying that her struggle is more than theirs? You best get familiar with the hierarchy of first-world social grievances.

[photofly]

I’m sorry - I didn’t follow your last comment. Please explain what you mean.

If she’s in there with a class of entirely while men apart from her, how is she in there with “all that diversity”? She is in fact in there with no diversity at all. That’s not good.

Nor is it good for all the other women who might sign up for ground school but look ahead and say to themselves, thanks, but I don’t want to be the only woman in my class. I can’t see a way forward for myself when every pilot I see is a man. I think I’ll do something else instead.

Uniformity breeds uniformity. Do you think diversity is just plain unimportant, or are you actively opposed to it? It’s hard to tell. You can’t possibly be dumb enough to think it will just happen on its own.

[shimmydampner]

Nor is it good for all the other women who might sign up for ground school but look ahead and say to themselves, thanks, but I don’t want to be the only woman in my class. I can’t see a way forward for myself when every pilot I see is a man. I think I’ll do something else instead.

Amidst all the high-volume virtue signaling, this is a point that I can actually buy. And (even as a white, middle aged man) my instinct is that it may hold even more true for a person of colour. I mean, it's tough enough to walk into a social situation where you are the odd man out, so to speak. I feel like it's probably quite easy for a white male to downplay the extra level of determination and courage required for a minority to enter an arena dominated by one group, simply because white guys in North America, don't usually find themselves in situations where they are the minority. I don't believe there are explicit barriers to entry for minorities in aviation, but I can accept that there are legitimate perceived ones.

If we agree that the career is equally suitable for both men and women, and fewer women than men aspire to it, then by definition there is a systemic reason preventing women from aspiring to it. There is no reason for the imbalance other than something systemic.

I do not, however buy in to this. It's not good enough to just assume that because the job itself does not require the traits of a man versus a woman, that both would find the job equally appealing. I don't think it is sound logic to assume that in the absence of any barriers, systemic or otherwise, that equality of opportunity will inevitably and always lead to equality of outcome, particularly when it comes to males and females. It assumes that there can, on average, be no difference between them in terms of what they find appealing, and denies that biology can have any effect on that type of behaviour or affect personality whatsoever. In fact, you would have to believe that there are no biological differences between males and females to fully reconcile this. I realize this belief might actually be popular these days, and might score you a pile of social justice brownie points, but I'm reasonably confident that this is not the case. I think the science is fairly clear that males and females generally have different hormonal profiles, and furthermore, that higher or lower levels of certain hormones affect human personality in fairly predictable ways. From there, I don't think it's a major leap to assume that certain personality traits might cause a person to be more or less attracted to a career in aviation, and that those varying levels of attraction might very well lead to a natural split that is not 50/50.

Either way, it seems a little silly that everyone is getting so upset about this. This is clearly just virtue signaling from a major corporation, clumsily trying to align themselves with the "woke" movement. As has been pointed out, current numbers indicate that they won't have a big enough pool to draw from to reach their goal. If they were really serious about the issue, instead of making ill advised tweets about intended hiring quotas in safety sensitive jobs, they would be organizing grass roots movements to get more women and minorities to start flight training. I don't see why any reasonable white guy should have a problem with that.

[Petit-Lion]

However, for as long as being an airline pilot is a well paid and respected job, I would like my daughter to have the same access to it as a career as my son; without the extra hurdle of being the only woman in her ground school class, the only woman on the type rating course, and the only worman in the flight deck.

She already has.

Sadly, not. If she did, we’d already have 50% female airline pilots.

Not already, perhaps in a few decades. Same for women in Boards of Directors, give them time to build a career first.

[kgb531]

Any sentence written by a man that begins "Women are generally...." is 100% guaranteed to be a humdinger which tells you nothing about women and everything about the man who writes it. Yours is not an exception.

You're denying nature, and therefore, science. Like most Western men, you are uneducated on the basics of humans and the differences of the sexes.

I'd like the people who fill well paid and responsible jobs to reflect society around them.

Our society has been steadily devolving for the past 60 years. You'll certainly reap the reflection of society that you seek.

I think diversity is a moral good. If there's a way to achieve it I think it should be explored.

Diversity's real meaning is forcing people into positions that they weren't qualified for or didn't desire in the first place. One way diversity is achieved is through lowering/eliminating testing standards.
There is no doubt that the state will achieve it-They are way beyond the exploration phase. It's only news to you now.

Of course, what you're failing to mention is what effect booting White guys from an industry will have:

Severely lowered wages
Extreme competition for few open jobs
Reduction/elimination of benefits
Return of loose or even abusive contract language

You know, all those things that terrible Whitey fought against.

You see, it's not about diversity and moral good. It's about resetting the clock on working conditions so that every pilot can work like an Amazon distribution centre slave or an Uber driver. The oligarchy has already firmly established through decades of trial and error that diversity is the way to create a slave class. So what you're promoting is indeed abusive to women and...diverse people. It's slavery, the very thing you believe that you're against.

As I've said, it's all psychology, and you've been tricked.

LOL. ^ when pilots forget we're just pilots. If you were smart enough to be anything else, you would have been anything else. Have you quit beating your wife yet?

[newlygrounded]

However, for as long as being an airline pilot is a well paid and respected job, I would like my daughter to have the same access to it as a career as my son; without the extra hurdle of being the only woman in her ground school class, the only woman on the type rating course, and the only worman in the flight deck.

She already has.

Sadly, not. If she did, we’d already have 50% female airline pilots.

Why is being the only (fe)male in a class a hurdle?

Because for as long as she’s the only woman, everything she does and achieves is about being the sole female. If she succeeds, it’s because as a woman she has to work harder than the men. If she fails, it’s because women aren’t as good as men. For as long as there’s only one woman around, she’s both an unwilling representative and an oddity, and that’s stressful.

Read some testimonies from black students who were the only visible minority in their classes. I’ll try to find you some.

Has anyone ever actually looked into the reasons why women are less likely to go for a flying career?

I think women are generally smarter than us, so for them logic will prevail more often (And this career is a moonshot imo) I know most people seem to start out by getting a job doing grunt work up north, which for obvious reasons yeah would be more difficult, though not sure how AC and the other big players can have any effect on this reality if they wanted to?

It's amazing despite us all being pilots, how shitty I see others act to each other in the pattern!

[betster]

Moderators this whole discussion is extremely offensive to women and I hope you remove it. There are most definitely systematic things in place keeping women out of the industry including the sexism displayed in this discussion. Perhaps if you will never have to face pumping your breasts in a planes toilet you should reconsider your authority to speak on the subject.

[telex]

EDITED. 'Telex', take a holiday for a couple of weeks, and reconsider your attitude towards 'newlygrounded'

[newlygrounded]

It's amazing despite us all being pilots, how shitty I see others act to each other in the pattern!

drop·out
/ˈdräpˌout/
noun
1. a person who has abandoned a course of study or who has rejected conventional society to pursue an alternative lifestyle.

I'm happy I'm living in you head rent free

[Dh8Classic]

Why do you see this as evidence of systemic discrimination? Can you give a possible example?

The hypothesis is that women don't *want* to be pilots, not that they are being discouraged from the whole process.

In an equal world, the same number of women will want to be pilots as men, because absent discrimination there is nothing about being a pilot that is more suited to one sex or the other.

It amazes me the complete lack of thought process in some people. Do you think it is systemic discrimination because you never see a female trash collector. Or working the sewars, etc.

Can we work toward a policy where the people who support these affirmative action policies identify themselves and then they can be put on the no-hire list to make way for the diversity hires.

[telex]

I'm happy I'm living in you head rent free

Just a reminder...

You are not part of the aviation industry.

You never were.

You never will be.

As always, I appreciate your insightful thoughts into the industry you are not a part of. Nor have ever been. Nor ever will be.

[newlygrounded]

I'm happy I'm living in you head rent free

Just a reminder...

You are not part of the aviation industry.

You never were.

You never will be.

As always, I appreciate your insightful thoughts into the industry you are not a part of. Nor have ever been. Nor ever will be.

I'm happy whatever problems I have in life, they won't be bad enough to make me stalk a stranger to attack them online. Please get help!

[ALPApolicy]

In the USA they call this policy of quota hiring, “Affirmative Action”, which is a polite way of saying “Justifiable Discrimination”.

Fight it. Don’t let up. Let Jordan Peterson be your guide. These misguided attempts at social engineering by race hustlers and grifters will not end well. It’s not a new story.

[photofly]

It amazes me the complete lack of thought process in some people. Do you think it is systemic discrimination because you never see a female trash collector. Or working the sewars, etc.

(Sewers, not “sewars”)
Your premise is false, as there are women who work in these roles, but they are few, and yes, it absolutely is systemic discrimination:
https://www.mswmanagement.com/collectio ... n-in-waste
Spot the troubling generalizations about women in that article, by the way, and you might see why it’s not a very good approach to what it’s trying to achieve.)

Here’s an ad for a municipal sewer worker. Is there anything at all here to suggest a woman wouldn’t be able to do or should want this job any less than a man?

https://jobs.toronto.ca/jobsatcity/job/ ... 545897017/

Anything except your prejudice, that is? And your attitude - that it’s not surprising, that’s it’s acceptable, and that it’s appropriate that women don’t want to work in this field, or that field, because it’s not “women’s work” is precisely the systemic discrimination that needs to be fixed.

Seriously: try to think of a reason why a sewer worker shouldn’t be a woman, without forming some discriminatory and disgusting piece of generalizing yeuch that starts “women in general are/aren’t...” any time your mind starts to go there, realize you’re part of the problem.

[C-GGGQ]

Seriously: try to think of a reason why a sewer worker shouldn’t be a woman, without forming some discriminatory and disgusting piece of generalizing yeuch that starts “women in general are/aren’t...” any time your mind starts to go there, realize you’re part of the problem

Because no one wants to be a sewer worker. However women tend to not have the responsibility of being sole provider, so they can pick and choose more than men.

My wife wants to start her own business. I have no desire to do so and she can’t understand why. Cause it doesn’t interest me in the slightest running a business. People are different.

[ALPApolicy]

Of course some women, who have claimed the victim role, will find sexism everywhere. For those that have done so, it is much easier than looking inward at their own life choices. They get to play the victim role and blame the patriarchy and their work is done. So they stagnate in their resentment.

Everyone has challenges. Get over yourself and look for the change within. As JBP says, make sure your bed is made before you try to change the world.

[rookiepilot]

Thinking on this subject:

Most Bus, Taxi drivers are men as well.

However, more women are starting businesses, and a majority of law and medical students are now women.

Gee, which group is a closer analogy for a commercial pilot?

Adjust....or....

[photofly]

Seriously: try to think of a reason why a sewer worker shouldn’t be a woman, without forming some discriminatory and disgusting piece of generalizing yeuch that starts “women in general are/aren’t...” any time your mind starts to go there, realize you’re part of the problem

Because no one wants to be a sewer worker. However women tend to not have the responsibility of being sole provider, so they can pick and choose more than men..

Again with the sexism. Women don’t have to work because they have men to look after them? Pat on the head for women who choose to have a hobby that earns them some pocket money, but we should leave the good paying jobs for men because they have the responsibilities.

If there wasn’t so much sexism from people like you, you’d find that more women would have the responsibility of being the “provider”. Don’t you get it?


Yes, people are different. Some people want to be sewer workers - the pay is good, you see a hidden part of the city, the camaraderie is great. Some people don’t - it’s smelly, and you wade in shit.

But there’s no reason why those preferences are to do with what sex you are.

[C-GGGQ]

Seriously: try to think of a reason why a sewer worker shouldn’t be a woman, without forming some discriminatory and disgusting piece of generalizing yeuch that starts “women in general are/aren’t...” any time your mind starts to go there, realize you’re part of the problem

Because no one wants to be a sewer worker. However women tend to not have the responsibility of being sole provider, so they can pick and choose more than men..

Again with the sexism. Women don’t have to work because they have men to look after them? Pat on the head for women who choose to have a hobby that earns them some pocket money, but we should leave the good paying jobs for men because they have the responsibilities.

If there wasn’t so much sexism from people like you, you’d find that more women would have the responsibility of being the “provider”. Don’t you get it?


Yes, people are different. Some people want to be sewer workers - the pay is good, you see a hidden part of the city, the camaraderie is great. Some people don’t - it’s smelly, and you wade in shit.

But there’s no reason why those preferences are to do with what sex you are.

That’s not what I said at all. Sewer work doesn’t pay well. People only do it cause they have to. Like it or not most women don’t HAVE to do it. They have other options. I never said women shouldn’t have careers, but 99.999% of the time that mean’s a two income houshold. Single income households are almost always the man. Hell my wife who wants to run a business also wants to be a stay at home mom. She has a career now. She wants more. I have a career now. I am happy with it. That’s the difference and it had 100% to do with your sex. We are wired different and have different wants and priorities.