So everyone is leaving?

[Bug_Stomper_01]

The point is why people still pay a bunch of money to flight school and pursue pilot career?

Because they don't know the realities of the job.

Or maybe they do, and still want to do it. Most pilots I know, who bitch about the aviation industry also have no experience doing other jobs. Or very limited experience. Lots of neophyte pilot resumes I see are guys and gals doing jobs I don’t envy, even though I’m sure many have better wages, schedules, or other pluses. The grass ain’t greener on the other side of the fence, or maybe it is. All that matters is what your personal path to happiness entails. A career in aviation isn’t for everyone, but it is for some. Even one might consider an aviation career elsewhere, it really depends on your point of view. I spend enough time flying around stateside to know it’s not all great down there, and I know enough expats to know that their lifestyle isn’t for me.

The point is just because one might be unhappy with your lot in life, don’t assume everyone else who’s lot you think is similar feels the same way.

The common denominator in ALL of this is low pay. Anyone who argues otherwise I’ll gladly discuss with logically and factually. Canadians are by far the lowest paid aviators in the civilized world.

[Squaretail]

Canadians are by far the lowest paid aviators in the civilized world.

No they aren’t. Maybe they are in your sector. I know I wouldn’t trade places with most (but not all) of my American counterparts. That’s not to say that there aren’t low paid pilots in Canada, but that isn’t a rule, just like it isn’t a rule that pilots uniformly make better money elsewhere.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am debating just leaving aviation altogether as my previous career (tech) was seeing 30% pay increases due to a skilled worker shortage. If only the same can happen for Canadian aviation...

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Canadians are by far the lowest paid aviators in the civilized world.

No they aren’t. Maybe they are in your sector. I know I wouldn’t trade places with most (but not all) of my American counterparts. That’s not to say that there aren’t low paid pilots in Canada, but that isn’t a rule, just like it isn’t a rule that pilots uniformly make better money elsewhere.

I’ve worked in almost every continent in the world, and I can assure you, Canadians are paid trash. Defend it all you want, I have first hand knowledge and nothing will change my mind in the decades I’ve been in this racket

[Loading...]

But would living in socialist Europe really be better than living and working here?
Real question, what can you expect to make in Europe as a first year 737 FO?
Because I have a European citizenship, maybe its worth it for me to make a switch.
Also how long and difficult is the process to convert a Canadian ATPL to a Euro ATPL?

[TalkingPie]

If pilots are willing and able to leave to the US for better salary/conditions/living, good for them, as well as for those who stay. That's the way free markets work and how eventually there might be a chance for Canadian businesses to be forced to raise pilot wages.

Wherever there's a hobby that men gravitate towards you're going to see jobs that don't pay well. I've been involved with bicycles, cars, and planes, and the common thread is that you get employees putting up with poor compensation in order to pursue their passions. That's all well and good, as long as they do it with their eyes open. And then you'll get the ones at the top who've won "the tournament" and make good money.

I'm the poster boy of an observer who's subject to survivorship bias. I chat with countless Canadian big airline pilots and what I see is that they're happy with how their careers turned out. Those who came up through the underpaying regionals largely have positive things to say about even that experience, and I see the pictures of their cottages and cool cars they can now afford. Before the pandemic there were young pilots in their mid-twenties who'd already moved into FO positions at a major airline.

On the other hand, my local FTU is full of young, qualified low-thousand hour pilots that are earning a pittance and who don't know when they'll be able to move up. From what the instructors tell me, there are still enough recalled regional pilots after the pandemic that instructors aren't able to move into their first non-FTU flying roles. Fresh CPL holders have no instructor openings to move into. Earlier this week a couple of instructors were talking about wanting to get their FAA licenses despite French being their mother tongue.

As an older CPL student I really don't know where it'll all go in the next few years. In any case, new student pilots would be well-advised to have a Plan B, be it saved money, another career, and/or the willingness and ability to live happily on a modest income. Giving up your freedom is always something best avoided, no matter how exciting flying a plane can be. For me, that means learning to fly part time while keeping the job that can pay the mortgage and my flying lessons. That comes with its own drawbacks, and I think few people would want to follow my exact life's path, but it's what works for me. I hope everyone else finds what works for them.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

If pilots are willing and able to leave to the US for better salary/conditions/living, good for them, as well as for those who stay. That's the way free markets work and how eventually there might be a chance for Canadian businesses to be forced to raise pilot wages.

Wherever there's a hobby that men gravitate towards you're going to see jobs that don't pay well. I've been involved with bicycles, cars, and planes, and the common thread is that you get employees putting up with poor compensation in order to pursue their passions. That's all well and good, as long as they do it with their eyes open. And then you'll get the ones at the top who've won "the tournament" and make good money.

I'm the poster boy of an observer who's subject to survivorship bias. I chat with countless Canadian big airline pilots and what I see is that they're happy with how their careers turned out. Those who came up through the underpaying regionals largely have positive things to say about even that experience, and I see the pictures of their cottages and cool cars they can now afford. Before the pandemic there were young pilots in their mid-twenties who'd already moved into FO positions at a major airline.

On the other hand, my local FTU is full of young, qualified low-thousand hour pilots that are earning a pittance and who don't know when they'll be able to move up. From what the instructors tell me, there are still enough recalled regional pilots after the pandemic that instructors aren't able to move into their first non-FTU flying roles. Fresh CPL holders have no instructor openings to move into. Earlier this week a couple of instructors were talking about wanting to get their FAA licenses despite French being their mother tongue.

As an older CPL student I really don't know where it'll all go in the next few years. In any case, new student pilots would be well-advised to have a Plan B, be it saved money, another career, and/or the willingness and ability to live happily on a modest income. Giving up your freedom is always something best avoided, no matter how exciting flying a plane can be. For me, that means learning to fly part time while keeping the job that can pay the mortgage and my flying lessons. That comes with its own drawbacks, and I think few people would want to follow my exact life's path, but it's what works for me. I hope everyone else finds what works for them.

So basically in a nutshell Canada sucks the big one, great thanks for reinforcing what’s been said lol

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Looks like lately everyone I know that flies wants to leave this country. It’s depressing.

It’s not just pilots leaving, ames are dropping off the face of the earth in Canada. I don’t work in Canada much as a technician anymore so I don’t stay abreast of who’s still out there but lately I’ve asked about a few guys that were in it for years who have moved onto different careers as well and not one of them are looking back.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

But would living in socialist Europe really be better than living and working here?
Real question, what can you expect to make in Europe as a first year 737 FO?
Because I have a European citizenship, maybe its worth it for me to make a switch.
Also how long and difficult is the process to convert a Canadian ATPL to a Euro ATPL?

… we’re living in socialist Canada…

[‘Bob’]

Canadians are by far the lowest paid aviators in the civilized world.

No they aren’t. Maybe they are in your sector. I know I wouldn’t trade places with most (but not all) of my American counterparts. That’s not to say that there aren’t low paid pilots in Canada, but that isn’t a rule, just like it isn’t a rule that pilots uniformly make better money elsewhere.

I’ve worked in almost every continent in the world, and I can assure you, Canadians are paid trash. Defend it all you want, I have first hand knowledge and nothing will change my mind in the decades I’ve been in this racket

There’s more to it than just pay.

Otherwise… why are you like so many expats who frequent this forum. You want to have your cake and eat it too. TNSTAAFL.

USA. 0-1500 hours is what breaks most pilots. There’s no huge supply of time building jobs there. It would be interesting to see how many get their CPL and 250 hours vs how many get to 1500 and an airline job. Everyone here is thinking they should have USA wages when they’ve been flying a Q since 500 hours vs trying to get on with Ameriflight for the 10th time after towing gliders or dropping meat bombs.

Everywhere else, flight training is insanely expensive. You have to come from a wealthy family, or go through the military, or be accepted into a national cadet program. That’s why they need expats and why wages are so high. Lack of supply.

Europe: In addition to the above, come with your own type rating.

Asia/ME: Get worked to death and live in either oppressive states or next door to probably the next war.

South America: Your choice. Get shot in Brazil, watch your money disappear in Argentina, maybe find a sweet gig but it really depends on which country and time period.

Africa: Enough said.

Canada is the easiest country in which to become an airline pilot, and being an airline pilot isn’t exactly academically challenging. Absent some other method of drowning the puppies or culling the herd.. we will always have an oversupply of pilots.

That is why our wages are low. Period.

[ToolShed]

Bob.
You couldn’t be so wrong about Canada.
You’ve bought and made the koolaid.

Your thinking is “Why” our wages are low.

[skybluetrek]

No they aren’t. Maybe they are in your sector. I know I wouldn’t trade places with most (but not all) of my American counterparts. That’s not to say that there aren’t low paid pilots in Canada, but that isn’t a rule, just like it isn’t a rule that pilots uniformly make better money elsewhere.

I’ve worked in almost every continent in the world, and I can assure you, Canadians are paid trash. Defend it all you want, I have first hand knowledge and nothing will change my mind in the decades I’ve been in this racket

There’s more to it than just pay.

Otherwise… why are you like so many expats who frequent this forum. You want to have your cake and eat it too. TNSTAAFL.

USA. 0-1500 hours is what breaks most pilots. There’s no huge supply of time building jobs there. It would be interesting to see how many get their CPL and 250 hours vs how many get to 1500 and an airline job. Everyone here is thinking they should have USA wages when they’ve been flying a Q since 500 hours vs trying to get on with Ameriflight for the 10th time after towing gliders or dropping meat bombs.

Everywhere else, flight training is insanely expensive. You have to come from a wealthy family, or go through the military, or be accepted into a national cadet program. That’s why they need expats and why wages are so high. Lack of supply.

Europe: In addition to the above, come with your own type rating.

Asia/ME: Get worked to death and live in either oppressive states or next door to probably the next war.

South America: Your choice. Get shot in Brazil, watch your money disappear in Argentina, maybe find a sweet gig but it really depends on which country and time period.

Africa: Enough said.

Canada is the easiest country in which to become an airline pilot, and being an airline pilot isn’t exactly academically challenging. Absent some other method of drowning the puppies or culling the herd.. we will always have an oversupply of pilots.

That is why our wages are low. Period.

[digits_]

Bob.
You couldn’t be so wrong about Canada.
You’ve bought and made the koolaid.

Your thinking is “Why” our wages are low.

No, he's completely right.

*if* you make it to the airlines, you will probably make more money in the USA or Europe. But your chances of getting there, are also much smaller than in Canada.

So take your pick!
'guaranteed' success with low wages in Canada, or pay 100k for a lottery ticket in Europe (or 70k in the USA). Your choice.

[rookiepilot]

I’ve worked in almost every continent in the world, and I can assure you, Canadians are paid trash. Defend it all you want, I have first hand knowledge and nothing will change my mind in the decades I’ve been in this racket

There’s more to it than just pay.

Otherwise… why are you like so many expats who frequent this forum. You want to have your cake and eat it too. TNSTAAFL.

USA. 0-1500 hours is what breaks most pilots. There’s no huge supply of time building jobs there. It would be interesting to see how many get their CPL and 250 hours vs how many get to 1500 and an airline job. Everyone here is thinking they should have USA wages when they’ve been flying a Q since 500 hours vs trying to get on with Ameriflight for the 10th time after towing gliders or dropping meat bombs.

Everywhere else, flight training is insanely expensive. You have to come from a wealthy family, or go through the military, or be accepted into a national cadet program. That’s why they need expats and why wages are so high. Lack of supply.

Europe: In addition to the above, come with your own type rating.

Asia/ME: Get worked to death and live in either oppressive states or next door to probably the next war.

South America: Your choice. Get shot in Brazil, watch your money disappear in Argentina, maybe find a sweet gig but it really depends on which country and time period.

Africa: Enough said.

Canada is the easiest country in which to become an airline pilot, and being an airline pilot isn’t exactly academically challenging. Absent some other method of drowning the puppies or culling the herd.. we will always have an oversupply of pilots.

That is why our wages are low. Period.

Life is a series of choices —-

[qwe221sd]

A lot of people talk that US 1500 requirement drives wages up ,that's joke. If that's true why not pic earn as much as U.S?

[‘Bob’]

Bob.
You couldn’t be so wrong about Canada.
You’ve bought and made the koolaid.

Your thinking is “Why” our wages are low.

Really?

Maybe you need a history lesson from before the USA had the 1500 hour rule.

https://youtu.be/cRq0O4lnsKE

Maybe you don’t remember that Sully was in the process of taking a pay cut when he landed in the Hudson.

And what koolaid have I made and bought? I’m not an unpaid Canadian airline pilot. I’m well paid for the sector I’m in. I’m not struggling to afford a one or two million dollar dump in the GTA or GVA on the pittance of a salary they give a puppy mill graduate.

Throttle the supply. I’ve done that with myself, so actually… I’m a reason why wages aren’t even lower.

Stop applying to the airlines. Give up on your dreams. Don’t start. And when airplanes are getting parked for lack of crews like they are in the US, wages will go up.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

No they aren’t. Maybe they are in your sector. I know I wouldn’t trade places with most (but not all) of my American counterparts. That’s not to say that there aren’t low paid pilots in Canada, but that isn’t a rule, just like it isn’t a rule that pilots uniformly make better money elsewhere.

I’ve worked in almost every continent in the world, and I can assure you, Canadians are paid trash. Defend it all you want, I have first hand knowledge and nothing will change my mind in the decades I’ve been in this racket

There’s more to it than just pay.

Otherwise… why are you like so many expats who frequent this forum. You want to have your cake and eat it too. TNSTAAFL.

USA. 0-1500 hours is what breaks most pilots. There’s no huge supply of time building jobs there. It would be interesting to see how many get their CPL and 250 hours vs how many get to 1500 and an airline job. Everyone here is thinking they should have USA wages when they’ve been flying a Q since 500 hours vs trying to get on with Ameriflight for the 10th time after towing gliders or dropping meat bombs.

Everywhere else, flight training is insanely expensive. You have to come from a wealthy family, or go through the military, or be accepted into a national cadet program. That’s why they need expats and why wages are so high. Lack of supply.

Europe: In addition to the above, come with your own type rating.

Asia/ME: Get worked to death and live in either oppressive states or next door to probably the next war.

South America: Your choice. Get shot in Brazil, watch your money disappear in Argentina, maybe find a sweet gig but it really depends on which country and time period.

Africa: Enough said.

Canada is the easiest country in which to become an airline pilot, and being an airline pilot isn’t exactly academically challenging. Absent some other method of drowning the puppies or culling the herd.. we will always have an oversupply of pilots.

That is why our wages are low. Period.

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said (about Canada), there is ZERO supply problem for pilots in Canada. There’s been a shortage coming (according to industry) since the late 80s…. HA! As for me, I’m an AME primarily and make way more doing what I do states side than anywhere in Canada, and I am not the only one. I do disagree with time building jobs supply in the states vs here (I am primarily in the VTOL world so that’s what I’m citing). As far as fixed wing goes you may want to brush up on what’s happening there since the pandemic…there’s several openings not being filled

[PitchLink]

There’s way more work in the states. The generational shift is definitely taking note of how things are and have been for so long. Domestic workforce don’t want to work for peanuts to fly as much as yesteryear. Another big one is the vaccine mandates and medical backlog…This has lead operators to bring in more TFW’s in the helicopter world to Canada I think. Lots of loopholes for international forestry workers as its emergency services. Is the same thing happening in the fixed wing racket in Canada? Are more employers outsourcing to different nations for airline and other areas of fixed wing pilots now?

[WANP]

I've never understood the appeal of going to work at any airline.
So this is all lost on me.
The last jobs I want are sewage pumper truck driver, and anything at an airline.
If I ever find one appealing thing about it, then it might matter if they are paid $2.00 / year, or $2,000,000.00 / year.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I've never understood the appeal of going to work at any airline.
So this is all lost on me.
The last jobs I want are sewage pumper truck driver, and anything at an airline.
If I ever find one appealing thing about it, then it might matter if they are paid $2.00 / year, or $2,000,000.00 / year.

It’s literally a TOILET lol

[newlygrounded]

I've never understood the appeal of going to work at any airline.
So this is all lost on me.
The last jobs I want are sewage pumper truck driver, and anything at an airline.
If I ever find one appealing thing about it, then it might matter if they are paid $2.00 / year, or $2,000,000.00 / year.

It being nice to live in a city with more than 8 people?

[PitchLink]

I've never understood the appeal of going to work at any airline.
So this is all lost on me.
The last jobs I want are sewage pumper truck driver, and anything at an airline.
If I ever find one appealing thing about it, then it might matter if they are paid $2.00 / year, or $2,000,000.00 / year.

It being nice to live in a city with more than 8 people?

Just need two side hustles on top of the regular airline crap to afford it….

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Things are slow in Canada right now and people
Are definitely leaving. Just heard another friend I went to college with left for good, not looking back.

[Squaretail]

My God, if it’s slow here, I would hate to see it busy.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

My God, if it’s slow here, I would hate to see it busy.

I love busy!