This is a Yes

[lenaumade]

LOL ACPA is not every union, and Air Canada not any company. We keep negociating shitty contract, that s why I am asking specifically is there a precedence for ACPA and Air Canada? cause to see the contract we got...It does not seem it happen before

[negative_g]

LOL ACPA is not every union, and Air Canada not any company. We keep negociating shitty contract, that s why I am asking specifically is there a precedence for ACPA and Air Canada? cause to see the contract we got...It does not seem it happen before

Do you not seem to understand that this isn't normal negotiations? We have all the leverage. The company NEEDS something from us we lose nothing if we say no (and yeah as a flat pay guy I still believe that because it needs to be fixed no matter what and will) it's on them to come back with a better offer. Next summer is fucked if they don't. You think the execs want to answer to the board why they can't do the flying they planned? Not a chance.

[lenaumade]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

[Chateau]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

Can you please learn to spell "negotiate" & "counter offer"

It's no wonder the company offers us peanuts. Some of us apparently write at a grade 9 level

[lenaumade]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

Can you please learn to spell "negotiate" & "counter offer"

It's no wonder the company offers us peanuts. Some of us apparently write at a grade 9 level

Yes you re totally right, That is why we fail all the negociation, because of my spelling...
Also when you say "Can you please learn to spell "negotiate and couter offer", it implies that it is a question. I m not in grade 10 yet but I think you have to put a question mark at the end such as "?". You could seat next to me in grade 9, I will keep your place warm.

Also, your username is a French name and you spell it "Château" and not Chateau. So if you got any more question, do not hesitate

cheers

[RRJetPilot]

What will happen is the big bid will come out. We vote no around 80%. Company tries to play hardball pulls the bid. Says agree to it or else. We hold out long enough they will come back to the table like adults.

[RVR6000]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

[altiplano]

Who cares if there is no counter-offer. Stop being cheap whores, value the profession for once.

Totally.

@#$!'em if they want to cut out part of the 2023 commercial schedule and the hundreds of millions of dollars that represents. Let them turn down the millions more of cargo revenue, and settle the grievance that JZA ALPA will win and shut down part of that operation because they can't staff it... or us...

Those are big boy exec-u-tive choices. Or they can get real and get out their chequebooks, toss out the ridiculous permanent concessions and we can give them short term flexibility in exchange for real lasting gains. They don't want to do that? The losses are on them.

Value yourself, your profession. If not now, then when?

[Loon-A-Tic]

Grow a pair, Man Up, put on your big boy pants, sorry I don't have any "non-binary" one's.

[lenaumade]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

Who cares if there is no counter-offer. Stop being cheap whores, value the profession for once.

Who cares?
Lots of guys on the flat pay and the jazz guy. If there is no couter offer, the 4 years flat pay is staying, then you will be a very very cheap whore.
The jazz pilot stay at jazz. AC continue to hire externally for months, Jazz guy will come after maye 100,200, 300 guys or more.
Value your colleague for once

[Chateau]

'Counter Offer'

[RVR6000]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

Who cares if there is no counter-offer. Stop being cheap whores, value the profession for once.

Who cares?
Lots of guys on the flat pay and the jazz guy. If there is no couter offer, the 4 years flat pay is staying, then you will be a very very cheap whore.
The jazz pilot stay at jazz. AC continue to hire externally for months, Jazz guy will come after maye 100,200, 300 guys or more.
Value your colleague for once

It’s in the companies own interest to fix flat pay and attract the best candidates for the job. We shouldn’t be trading in bargaining capital to fix their problem.

Secondly do a bit of research, Jazz pilots will be in position to renegotiate their crappy B scale if AC can’t flow 60%. Career Jazz pilots would rather prefer we vote No.

Lastly what bargaining capital is left for full contract negotiations if we give this type of flexibility?

[lenaumade]

When analysing the poll that we did few weeks ago, The union saw that the main concern was the flat pay.
Right now they try to fix that. It should be shorter but it is right now. If we vote no, and there is no counter offer or if it take time. We stay at 4 years flat pay and we do not attract the good candidate.
Plus, there is no arbitration if this MOA is not going through.

So you would ask to the guy on flat pay to vote no, stay on the 4 years flat pay until renegociation because not having a couter offer is not a big deal. If those guys got laid off, it is a 5 years and a half of flat pay. That s a very very very cheap whore, even cheaper that if this whore would vote yes. funny.

Secondly, The carreer Jazz pilot are not on the B scale. . The B scale is not made for guy to stay at Jazz obviously but to build their experience and go to AC. And I will certainly not cry for them. voting this b scale was only benefiting them, not the new hire and it seems that s what we will do again.

it s been a bit more than six months and the pit course have been full of good candidates but none from Jazz. So basically there are losing a lots of seniority as we speak. And if they cannot go through the LOA AC will still hire elsewhere. And they will lose hundred of places in seniority again. A negociation can take a long time and that can be disastrous for their carreer.
Personnaly guys I talk to at jazz are completly for it. Again, it seems I must speak to the only guys that are for this deal or dare to say yes.

If there is a counter offer, it will be the ACPA which gonna negociate for us again making concession again...so whatever, you will not get your unicorn deal since it will be kind of the same team

I don t know what we will bargain, we ll see when it will come. If there is a crisis next year, be sure that we will not bargain anything and the company will not even bargain the flat pay. A flat pay that we can get rid off now.
If everything goes well and they do not want to bargain, we could use a lots of things but right now it is a good deal for the flat pay and the jazz guy and not for the WB guy.

You will not convince me and I will not convince you anyway. I respect your point of view, it is a bargain. Pretty sure the no will win anyway, so no need to get angry or very vocal to agree with the mass

[Winnikegger]

Taking concessions right now with leverage is a special kind of dumb

Then reading the contract language makes this a 'hell no'

[negative_g]

You're missing the point though dude. We are giving away some SCOPE, SCHEDULING (flexibility for the company, NOT the pilot) and LEVERAGE FOR PILOT JOBS (Jazz issues) in order to get this flat pay fix. Which I am not willing to give away.

If they don't come back, they don't come back! I for one don't feel like flying 85 hours a month every month as a WB pilot for the rest of my career. Maybe you do, and that's great but I and many others don't. Not to mention more hours per WB pilot means less WB positions needed, means slower upgrades to WB FO, staying on reserve longer, slower move to WB CA which as CWIPP members we all want faster progression not slower! We also shouldn't want to give up all this displacement stuff, that just makes it easier for the company to move pilots around and take too much control of our lives and schedules. The company can already displace pilots, they just have to pay for it. When a WB FO gets removed as operating FO they don't get pushed to augment, the company has to fill that seat with reserve (more jobs) or draft (more pay). We are losing all of that and this is not a good trade for adding a few grand to flat pay (for most pilots, as most of us are RPs and NB FOs).

Fixing flat pay is Awesome! It really is. Just not at this cost.

That is what you can't seem to understand. And if we vote no, and the company walks away that's fine by me. I will be very interested to see how they deal with their Jazz issue. And their staffing issue for next summer, and no the solution wont' be pulling back on flying the board won't let that happen.

[RVR6000]

We’re giving away 60 odd WB CA positions by giving the DBM flexibility alone.

[negative_g]

We’re giving away 60 odd WB CA positions by giving the DBM flexibility alone.

That's conservatively $15,000,000 of WB CA wages gone. Poof.

And by daisy chain effect, $9,000,000 of WB FO wages gone.

And lastly and leastly, approx $5,000,000 of WB RP wages gone.

Forever.

Vote No.

[lenaumade]

Oh yeah Dude I completly get your points, we re saying the same stuff. Everybody is preaching for their own church. YOU vote for YOU , the dbm at 85 sucks but the flatpay sucks way harder. The most vulnerable members are the guys on flat pay. period.

And yes by that they re will be potential lost in some widebody hours. But let s not fool ourself here, this is not cause of that ,that people will vote no. It is because people don t want to work 24 hours /year for free, and I get it. But the money "lost", some of them will go to the new members on the formula pay. That s kind of the whole point...

On the jazz things I completly disagree with you for the reasons stated in the previous message. You cannot play with carreers for years until things could eventually may improved for the lifer. The "it is the jazz problem" only show how divided we are in Canada between pilot group. they will have issue anyway.

Anyway, we will come back to this subject in few days or few weeks! I gave my opinion, you gave yours

Fly safe guys!

[negative_g]

Based on your focus on the Jazz part and flat pay, I'm starting to think you don't actually work at AC and you want the Jazz deferral and seniority number and are speaking form a selfish angle. Jazz pilots get the best deal out of anyone in this MOA. Keep flying at CA rate at Jazz for 1-2 years, and slide into a nice cushy WB FO or NB CA job 6-12 months after they show up at AC with 2 years of seniority (bypassing virtually the actual two years of flat pay).

Meanwhile all the AC pilots who were furloughed are still being ignored. "YOS can't be done because then it would need to go to all employees!" says the YUL LEC Chair. But here we can give YOS accrual to pilots for 1-2 years before they even spend a day in a PIT class. Unreal.

It sucks for Jazz pilots if they're delayed a few more months but frankly I'm more concerned about protecting whatever we have left in our contract here at AIR CANADA. And those same Jazz pilots who will be AC pilots soon enough should care about that as well. No one is "playing" with their careers, this MOA is playing with ours. Air Canada pilots.

The DBM increase alone will have financial impact on everyone, flat pay is two years (proposed). Changes in working conditions, and less WB jobs is forever. Could mean the difference of a delayed upgrade as a WB FO or WB CA by a year. Which has a much greater effect on your earnings than flat pay.

Vote No.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Oh yeah Dude I completly get your points, we re saying the same stuff. Everybody is preaching for their own church. YOU vote for YOU , the dbm at 85 sucks but the flatpay sucks way harder. The most vulnerable members are the guys on flat pay. period.

And yes by that they re will be potential lost in some widebody hours. But let s not fool ourself here, this is not cause of that ,that people will vote no. It is because people don t want to work 24 hours /year for free, and I get it. But the money "lost", some of them will go to the new members on the formula pay. That s kind of the whole point...

On the jazz things I completly disagree with you for the reasons stated in the previous message. You cannot play with carreers for years until things could eventually may improved for the lifer. The "it is the jazz problem" only show how divided we are in Canada between pilot group. they will have issue anyway.

Anyway, we will come back to this subject in few days or few weeks! I gave my opinion, you gave yours

Fly safe guys!

Yeah, I agree with the above sentiment. If you do work at AC, then you'd know that an overwhelming majority of flat pay guys who stand to directly benefit from this deal if it's passed, are HARD NO votes (myself included) because of what's being given up in return for "fixing" flat pay. Typical ACPA mentality though, "get what we can now" and screw everyone else? It needs to change. Not to mention the YOS for the furloughed guys.

[cdnavater]

Based on your focus on the Jazz part and flat pay, I'm starting to think you don't actually work at AC and you want the Jazz deferral and seniority number and are speaking form a selfish angle. Jazz pilots get the best deal out of anyone in this MOA. Keep flying at CA rate at Jazz for 1-2 years, and slide into a nice cushy WB FO or NB CA job 6-12 months after they show up at AC with 2 years of seniority (bypassing virtually the actual two years of flat pay).

Meanwhile all the AC pilots who were furloughed are still being ignored. "YOS can't be done because then it would need to go to all employees!" says the YUL LEC Chair. But here we can give YOS accrual to pilots for 1-2 years before they even spend a day in a PIT class. Unreal.

It sucks for Jazz pilots if they're delayed a few more months but frankly I'm more concerned about protecting whatever we have left in our contract here at AIR CANADA. And those same Jazz pilots who will be AC pilots soon enough should care about that as well. No one is "playing" with their careers, this MOA is playing with ours. Air Canada pilots.

The DBM increase alone will have financial impact on everyone, flat pay is two years (proposed). Changes in working conditions, and less WB jobs is forever. Could mean the difference of a delayed upgrade as a WB FO or WB CA by a year. Which has a much greater effect on your earnings than flat pay.

Vote No.

These were my thoughts exactly reading this guys posts, Jazz flow Pilot.
This does not look like a good deal for AC pilots, it benefits both companies, I’m selfish though. I don’t want to lose our(all Jazz pilots) current leverage.
Lenaumade,
You seem to be focused on the damage to the Jazz flow pilots career, which is absolutely happening but it’s happening because AC isn’t following the current signed FOUR PARTY agreement. The only way they could, would be to hire only Jazz pilots for the rest of the year which would severely impact Jazz operations.
This is NOT the pilots problem to fix, they will have to come back to the table, it’s a huge problem for THEM and you support fixing it with some fixes but some concessions thrown in. It should be ALL improvements, NO concessions!
This is a four party agreement being changed by three of the parties, not sure how that will be affected by the arbitration to follow shortly after it’s signed, hopefully we don’t need to find out

[lenaumade]

Based on your focus on the Jazz part and flat pay, I'm starting to think you don't actually work at AC and you want the Jazz deferral and seniority number and are speaking form a selfish angle. Jazz pilots get the best deal out of anyone in this MOA. Keep flying at CA rate at Jazz for 1-2 years, and slide into a nice cushy WB FO or NB CA job 6-12 months after they show up at AC with 2 years of seniority (bypassing virtually the actual two years of flat pay).

Meanwhile all the AC pilots who were furloughed are still being ignored. "YOS can't be done because then it would need to go to all employees!" says the YUL LEC Chair. But here we can give YOS accrual to pilots for 1-2 years before they even spend a day in a PIT class. Unreal.

It sucks for Jazz pilots if they're delayed a few more months but frankly I'm more concerned about protecting whatever we have left in our contract here at AIR CANADA. And those same Jazz pilots who will be AC pilots soon enough should care about that as well. No one is "playing" with their careers, this MOA is playing with ours. Air Canada pilots.

The DBM increase alone will have financial impact on everyone, flat pay is two years (proposed). Changes in working conditions, and less WB jobs is forever. Could mean the difference of a delayed upgrade as a WB FO or WB CA by a year. Which has a much greater effect on your earnings than flat pay.

Vote No.

Based on your focus on the Jazz part and flat pay, I'm starting to think you don't actually work at AC and you want the Jazz deferral and seniority number and are speaking form a selfish angle. Jazz pilots get the best deal out of anyone in this MOA. Keep flying at CA rate at Jazz for 1-2 years, and slide into a nice cushy WB FO or NB CA job 6-12 months after they show up at AC with 2 years of seniority (bypassing virtually the actual two years of flat pay).

First of all, I am at AC. Yeah crazy huh, a pilot who is not thinking about his own ass all the time so yes, I think to my fellow jazz pilot. It is called solidarity.

I agree with you, we should protect our contract but here, there is a choice to make. I think That s how Flat pay came in the first place. There was some concessions to make for senior pilot or the insauration of the flat pay....and guess what....here we are again...ME ME ME!
You also seem to not trust the union but at the same time you all hope that they will do a better job next time...Don t hold your breath too long... it seems we will never get the unicorn deal. Sorry for my skepticism but AC hit profit record between 2016 to 2019 and we were not able to secure any gain...

Meanwhile all the AC pilots who were furloughed are still being ignored. "YOS can't be done because then it would need to go to all employees!" says the YUL LEC Chair. But here we can give YOS accrual to pilots for 1-2 years before they even spend a day in a PIT class. Unreal.

The flat pay being reduced to 2 years will end the flat pay. That would be like close to 3 years and half, 4 years since they ve been hired, it is not YOS but on a monetary point of view it is. And yes we could give that to some pilots, for 6 months now, it is hundreds of seniority number that they are losing. So it is not like it is a big win for them. They should have been hired way sooner. Yes it is the management problem. But here we have a chance to do something about it. Pilot Unity begin here. So let s do it.

you'd know that an overwhelming majority of flat pay guys who stand to directly benefit from this deal if it's passed, are HARD NO votes (myself included) because of what's being given up in return for "fixing" flat pay. Typical ACPA mentality though, "get what we can now" and screw everyone else? It needs to change. Not to mention the YOS for the furloughed guys.

We re not talking to the same guys then. I m looking at Slacks and Clearly guys who will vote yes will absolutly not saying it on slack because the masses is for the no. And elsewhere neither. Being on flat pay I guess you re doing overtime as much as you can to end the months, so you clearly do more than 85 a month anyway because you have no choice.

The struggle is for the flat pay guys, not the 8 years wb fo. This guy will not see is wages increase and that s why he will vote no, Because HE did not get any money even tough it is just a MOA and the renegociation of wages is next year.

The flat pay came in the first place exactly the same way as of now.

Is using the jazz pilot shortage even a strategy of bargaining for the union? We don t even know if they will use that. You would do it but would they?

If there is a crisis next year, The company will not give you anything.
Since everbody is looking to his own conditions and not taking care about others, for the flatpay guy, get out from the flatpay as soon as you can. You cannot say no to a 50% increase. For the rest we can negociate later. The flatpay should be gone and that should be the first priority.

Vote yes

[TheAlcalde]

You’re a sellout, plain and simple. You’re voting to degrade our working conditions for short term, temporary gain.

[rudder]

You’re a sellout, plain and simple. You’re voting to degrade our working conditions for short term, temporary gain.

Have you been peeking in the ACPA playbook again?

[lenamade]

After thinking about the concessions and selling out Jazz & their collective will, I'm changing my tune

I'm now on team "Hells No"

This 90% No vote is going to be the definition of solidarity!!