Negotiations

[Loon-A-Tic]

SKV started out very quickly with only four fins, quietly operating a small route structure out of the island. They staffed them very quickly and grew from there.

[swervin]

SKV started out very quickly with only four fins, quietly operating a small route structure out of the island. They staffed them very quickly and grew from there.

That was due to all the Air Canada captains retiring that year at age 60 and the amount of senior Jazz F/O's that jumped across after we made significant gains in 2010. They all went to SKY to take significant pay cuts.

[truedude]

SKV started out very quickly with only four fins, quietly operating a small route structure out of the island. They staffed them very quickly and grew from there.

This was 12 years ago, and a very different labor market. They also unionized a few years later and then had to keep offering more and more money to attract pilot. So they can play that shell game all day long, but the one place they will no longer be able to save money on is pilot costs. Hopefully that reality is slowly dawning on them, and they will respond accordingly.

[GIVCE!]

This site needs an “like” button…
G

[rudder]

Anyone who's think that AC/Jazz doesn't have a Plan B could be horribly wrong

Plan B will simply be to do less flying.

It is likely with the failure of the ACPA MOA that AC is already revisiting how much mainline flying it will be able to do next summer based on a status quo ACPA CBA. No WB block hour let. No training let. No enhanced TP compensation (no increased subscription). Equipment bid cancelled. B777 freighter operation launch in question.

On the Jazz side, still have not caught up on staffing and training. And now attrition is becoming the #1 issue. Even if Jazz supports flow to resume, it is AC that ultimately decides who and when it hires. That has already been demonstrated in 2022 and flow will probably remain below 60% until Jazz can assure ability to meet Express staffing requirements. A 2023 schedule adjustment may also be in the cards for Express. The Jazz/ALPA discussions may help in this regard, but what happened between AC and ACPA on the MOA is a cautionary tale.

ACPA surveyed its pilots, empowered its NC, reached an MOA with majority MEC approval, then watched it go down in flames as the membership demonstrated by a wide margin that its ambitions were significantly different than those represented by the NC/MEC to the employer. The JAZ MEC would be wise not to go down a similar path. A recent member survey may or may not be an appropriate gauge of the expectations of the pilots that would be voting on any TA or LOU. A slick sales job won’t work this time. Just ask ACPA. But I wouldn’t be surprised to see suggestions of dark storm clouds ahead if the Jazz pilots don’t demonstrate that they are flexible.

We will see.

[rudder]

Jazz is probably looking to give just enough to keep pilots on the hook till 2025 (isn't that when they can reduce the size the fleet to 80 tails..hence need for less crews?)

Fleet guarantee is 105 until Dec 31, 2025. 80 fins thereafter.

Having said that, AC could simply choose to underutilize the Express fleet.

[kiaszceski]

I'm sure the MEC has already thought about that but what if the company agrees to deadhead captain from YVR/YYC to YYZ?
Maybe those FOs would love to upgrade but can't afford the move or the crashpad? It would probably give a shorter pairing but at least they could cover some flying by artificially increasing the captains on those bases.

[Fanblade]

. The Jazz/ALPA discussions may help in this regard, but what happened between AC and ACPA on the MOA is a cautionary tale.

ACPA surveyed its pilots, empowered its NC, reached an MOA with majority MEC approval, then watched it go down in flames as the membership demonstrated by a wide margin that its ambitions were significantly different than those represented by the NC/MEC to the employer.

I think I need to challenge your narrative slightly.

ACPA put out a baseline survey only. Intended to build off of and interpret changing membership attitudes moving forward. The first in years. It did show a pissed of membership that wanted raises. But there had yet been no polling into why the membership was so pissed off. We have had almost no Local Membership Meetings since before Covid and ACPA has refused virtual meetings as a replacement.

In the mean time the membership was signalling for over a year that they wanted change through elections. This MOA was nearly exclusively opposed by those elected to the MEC in the last year. That should have been a clue.

The fact that the vote was supported by two MEC members who were asked to resign by 68% of those who voted is another clue. Without them in the mix the MOA never would have made it to the membership. It still boggles my mind on this front. A recall is a non confidence motion. Why did they move forward with an MOA that needed the support of 2 MEC members who had been recalled by 68%?

This is a cautionary tale though. The membership had been signalling for well over a year that they were fed up. It was ignored. Just a vocal minority. No one did any real polling to get a pulse of the membership. Instead they went along and did the same old, same old. Insisting in their minds that the electoral votes over the last year were an anomaly.

The last MEC vote was 70% for change. A 68% recall. Then the MOA failed by 79%. It shouldn’t have surprised anyone. The opposition to the MOA was instantaneous. This was simply union dysfunction that brought this vote forward.

Yet 6 people on the MEC, in opposition to 5, actually thought the MOA would be overwhelmingly supported. Clueless.

The cautionary tail is KNOW what your membership wants. Only bring forward what your membership wants.

In this instance the MEC, without realizing it, empowered the NC to seek a deal with targets too low. The MEC set this up for failure because they were not in touch with the membership

[RVR6000]

The ball is in ALPA/Jazz pilots court now, demand proper compensation across the board, better bonuses. Don’t fall for the carrot dangling, they’re probably offering 99% flow through lol.

The mother Corp is on the cusp of reducing next years commercial schedule cause they’re too cheap to pay their pilots accordingly. It will be an interesting earnings call on the 30th with MR, cause on the previous call he wasn’t concern about a pilot shortage.

Very little flight training/licenses very issued during COVID, even the 750 hr pool will dry off quickly.

[SmokinJoe]

I think ac backed Jazz into a corner and told them that they are going to start taking pilots at a quick pace, they expect the schedule to be covered, so do what you need to do to get this done. Hence why the company is willing to sit down now.
Aim high folks. COl is rising on every metric. Look to the future and ask yourself “will what they’re offering us cover us as cost of living increases?”

[kiaszceski]

Hopefully the 100k/66k ca/fo will be a good start.
I’m sure the pilots already told their MEC what’s important to achieve in this negotiation.

[Vico56]

Hopefully the 100k/66k ca/fo will be a good start.
I’m sure the pilots already told their MEC what’s important to achieve in this negotiation.

What do you mean “the” ? Is that on the table ?

[kiaszceski]

Hopefully the 100k/66k ca/fo will be a good start.
I’m sure the pilots already told their MEC what’s important to achieve in this negotiation.

What do you mean “the” ? Is that on the table ?

Don't know.

[Malfunction]

Got it from a good source each base will be getting a pizza party. Ltc and tp get first pick.

[rudder]

Hopefully the 100k/66k ca/fo will be a good start.
I’m sure the pilots already told their MEC what’s important to achieve in this negotiation.

It is equally likely that the outcome will resemble the AC/ACPA scenario - minus the failed MOA ratification. Status quo.

The AC MOA negotiation will not resume soon, if ever. It will take time to reconstitute the representative framework and solicit timely and accurate member priorities so that a valid agenda can be created and taken in to the next bargaining opportunity whether that be MOA or normal course bargaining.

In the case of the JAZ MEC, one can presume that there is a clearer picture of member expectations. Therefore, if the employer balks at the pilot agenda then the outcome will be no deal/no LOU/no mid term CBA amendment. However, not unlike the failed AC/ACPA MOA, provisions that resulted in increased compensation were ‘employer’ issues. You must offer market rates (or more) if you expect to be successful in recruiting the most qualified pilot candidates in a dwindling Pilot labour supply market. You must also offer market rates (or more) to attract and retain qualified training pilots. So in both cases, it is less about Pilot gains than it is the company choosing to be a proactive in its ability to replace attrition from both the line pilot and training pilot ranks (in particular - CA qualified pilots) which in turn is essential in maintaining adequate staffing to meet the commercial schedule.

ACPA represented that its gains in the MOA were 9:1 - 9 dollars gained for every 1 dollar given up. That MOA failed at 80%. And while there were significant underlying reasons for Pilot discontent within the terms of the MOA, it makes clear that a significant investment in the pilot group will be required to secure any flexibility from the terms of the CBA that are in force. Jazz, and by proxy AC, may be unwilling to make that investment. That is their choice. They cannot be compelled. But they must then accept the consequences.

Both Jazz and AC have had company friendly deals for many years. Perhaps they thought that would continue forever. But the pendulum has swung. It is time to make a pilot labour cost adjustment. And not a small one. There will be flexibility that flows back. But the zero sum era is over. And apparently even 9:1 isn’t good enough.

My guess is the dynamic at the Jazz bargaining table will differ from AC. There may or may not be references to what the future will hold for Jazz after 2025 depending on decisions taken. And there may or may not be references to what AC is willing to approve, assuming AC approval is required. Flow will possibly be on the table. Whether it survives at 60% or survives at all. It is in point of fact a Jazz issue. And the JAZ MEC already has feedback on where it ranks in member priority. And AC wants the most qualified pilots as well. 2000 hours and a bare ATPL/no 705 PIC is not competitive absent the current flow deal.

I hope that both parties bring their ‘A’ game. This will be a challenging discussion. It is as much about the future as it is about the present. And if either party says the ask is too much, then both parties will have to live with status quo. It is unlikely that a piece meal LOU would be the result. The JAZ MEC have found some leverage in an otherwise untenable situation. What that leverage is worth remains to be determined.

[kiaszceski]

Very interesting read Rudder.
If the flow doesn’t survive, one could expect eligible pilots leave the company. The ones staying will be those not willing to flow. How many would that be? 500 out of 1500?
I don’t see Jazz surviving if that is the case.
Since AC started the flow again, AC might have already given what would be the #1 priority. Or maybe the money AC was willing to put into their MOA got somehow transferred to the Jazz negotiation.

Hopefully you guys will have a clearer picture by the end of November.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Flow to AC has a place, just not 60% those days are over. I see a reduction in flow; negotiate a smaller percentage, that's more sustainable. Use this opportunity to adding gains across the ranks for those to whom flow isn't in their personal career planning.

[rudder]

Flow to AC has a place, just not 60% those days are over. I see a reduction in flow; negotiate a smaller percentage, that's more sustainable. Use this opportunity to adding gains across the ranks for those to whom flow isn't in their personal career planning.

Ironically, high flow rate is a system (coupled with low year 1-5 pay) embraced by Jazz as a significant cost saving measure. I am sure if it worked in 2022/2023 Jazz would choose status quo. Well, status quo is not working.

Jazz needs much more experienced new-hire pilots. DEC and quickly upgradeable FO. Jazz needs current trainers to remain as trainers, plus more qualified Jazz pilots to volunteer as trainers.

And losing 300-400 pilots per year to AC - mostly CA and training pilots - isn’t going to work. Even losing 50% of E175 ACP to Porter causes a serious dilemma in managing check ride volume, particularly ad hoc PPC events.

A model invented in 2014/2015 has not withstood the test of time. Many more alternative opportunities for pilots other than AC or Jazz, or other than Jazz for pilots aspiring to eventually move to AC. Time for a new model that will work for all parties (3 or 4 if you include ACPA).

What is required is not tweaking to the CBA, it is wholesale change. Probably what is required at AC as well in the ACPA CBA. At least that is what 80% of the AC pilots have said.

[hithere]

The only true solution is a seniority solution. It can be done to the satisfaction of all 4 parties. The Delta MEC and Endeavor MEC have signed a resolution to facilitate this at their properties. The fact that the new Alpa president is also the Delta MEC chair sends a strong message

[RockSalty]

The only true solution is a seniority solution. It can be done to the satisfaction of all 4 parties. The Delta MEC and Endeavor MEC have signed a resolution to facilitate this at their properties. The fact that the new Alpa president is also the Delta MEC chair sends a strong message

Not sure this would be the way to go, look at how that turned out for Encore.

[hithere]

The reason it didn't work at Encore is because they have a completely different demographic there, with the majority of the senior pilots(Captains) at Mainline Westjet nowhere near retirements. Current upgrade times at mainline Westjet are in the 8-12 year range . Narrowbody Captains at AC are currently in the 0-2 year range. Same thing at Delta

[RRJetPilot]

The reason it didn't work at Encore is because they have a completely different demographic there, with the majority of the senior pilots(Captains) at Mainline Westjet nowhere near retirements. Current upgrade times at mainline Westjet are in the 8-12 year range . Narrowbody Captains at AC are currently in the 0-2 year range. Same thing at Delta

Thats incorrect. Although there are pilots holding left the seat the most Junior trained CA is around 4 years seniority.

[hithere]

Ok well its not far off then and my assertion that the demographics at AC vice Westjet being vastly different is accurate

[rudder]

The only true solution is a seniority solution. It can be done to the satisfaction of all 4 parties. The Delta MEC and Endeavor MEC have signed a resolution to facilitate this at their properties. The fact that the new Alpa president is also the Delta MEC chair sends a strong message

DAL AND EDV MECS SIGN JOINT RESOLUTION TO SUPPORT MUTUAL INTERESTS

The Delta and Endeavor MECs met in joint session on October 14 in advance of the ALPA BOD meeting. The groups discussed the many common interests and challenges of their pilot groups and ways to work together.

Together, the MECs reached a joint resolution in support of mutual interests, including the Delta MEC’s support for bringing EDV pilots and aircraft to the mainline and the EDV MEC’s support of the Delta pilots’ strike-authorization vote. Each group separately passed the joint resolution.

Staffing is a concern at the forefront of nearly every carrier in this fast-changing pilot labor market, including at Endeavor. The two MECs agree that the best way to ensure proper staffing for Delta’s regional flying is to bring those pilots and aircraft and to the mainline.

“We need to find real solutions to the broken fee-for-departure model,” said Delta MEC chair Capt. Jason Ambrosi. “The Delta MEC supports Delta management bringing regional aircraft, and the Endeavor pilots, to the mainline under one contract.”
In the resolution, the Delta and Endeavor MECs mutually committed to maintaining and improving communication channels, coordinating efforts and objectives, sustaining a mutually beneficial cooperative relationship, and supporting each other’s collective bargaining goals.

“We both benefit from coordinated approaches and strategies when interacting and negotiating with Delta Air Lines and their subsidiary managers,” said EDV MEC chair Capt. Nick James. “A rising tide lifts all boats. With Endeavor’s contractual career-progression pathway to Delta, endorsed by the Delta MEC, we are all potentially future Delta pilots, so their fight is our fight.”
The Endeavor MEC supports the Delta pilot group’s strike-authorization ballot and actions as well as ongoing efforts to achieve the industry-leading contract the Delta pilots have earned.

[RockSalty]

I don't think the one list thing didn't work for encore because of the different demographic at WJ, I think it didn't work because it was brought in as a carrot to try and make up for the flow taking years, which just meant you were getting screwed pay wise since you weren't getting YOS at mainline.

The only real solution to retention and attracting experience to Jazz is to fix the garbage WAWCON.