know it all copilots
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Snagmaster E
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DAVE THE RAVE
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water wings
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i used to ba an FA for an airline and the entire crew did CRM, including the dispatchers. As good a course as it was, and sometimes actually interesting, it can't help people who are inherent assholes. It will however (maybe) help the non-assholes better deal with those in question...BUT, I still think the real CRM occured after the course, when we all went for beers at the local pub. cheers!Snagmaster E wrote:...wonder how many people actually have real CRM training.... both sides of the throttles?
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Captain Esq.
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I was just talking to an experience Airbus Captain the other day, and this whole topic came up. I'm a co-pilot for a corporate jet operator, and I had said that I often find it difficult to fly the way I want to fly because it feels like I need to run every little decision past a Captain who doesn't seem to listen well enough to my briefings. I'll methodically give a concice, detailed approach briefing to this ageing Captain, and ask "Any questions?" He always says 'no', then subsequently, when I'm well into the approach, asks me questions about what I'm doing. How, when I'm doing exactly as I briefed I was going to do, am I supposed to draw a picture for him and give him an explanation, when I gave him the chance to have me do just that 10 minutes ago? But he IS the Captain, so he deserves an answer! And if he wants it done differently, now we gotta scramble; re-evaluate descent rates; verify with ATC; re-brief; etc. when we coulda had it all sorted out way back when I asked "Any questions?" These are the frustrations of being a co-pilot. Even when the Captain isn't paying attention, the co-pilot is obligated to clean up the mess and adjust. When I said this to the Airbus Captain, he just shook his head and said, "Too bad. I love having co-pilots that make the decisions. Because every time he makes a decision, that's one less decision that I gotta make!" I want a Captain like that. Admitedly, I'm a much better leader than I am a follower. And being relatively new to 2 crew flying, I'm on a constant journey to figure out how to improve my ability to follow, without comprimising my ability to lead.
On another note, my operation has published SOP's, but every Captain seems to pick & choose which ones they follow. I try very hard to adhere to them as strictly as I can, and I have no problem if someone points out to me where I'm failing in this. I'll correct it ASAP. But I had one @ssh0le Captain say to me, "When you fly with me, you need to fly it the way I want it flown. When you fly with Z, you gotta fly it the way HE wants it flown. Same for Y & X!" I kept my mouth shut, like a 'good' co-pilot, but what I should have said was, "No. If I fly the airplane exactly as its specified in our company SOP's, by rights, all of our Captain's shall fly it the way the I fly it!" I didn't say that, but I firmly believe it. Besides, as the co-pilot, there's rarely an arguement I'll ever win... even if I couldn't be more right. That's life as a co-joe, though!
C/E
On another note, my operation has published SOP's, but every Captain seems to pick & choose which ones they follow. I try very hard to adhere to them as strictly as I can, and I have no problem if someone points out to me where I'm failing in this. I'll correct it ASAP. But I had one @ssh0le Captain say to me, "When you fly with me, you need to fly it the way I want it flown. When you fly with Z, you gotta fly it the way HE wants it flown. Same for Y & X!" I kept my mouth shut, like a 'good' co-pilot, but what I should have said was, "No. If I fly the airplane exactly as its specified in our company SOP's, by rights, all of our Captain's shall fly it the way the I fly it!" I didn't say that, but I firmly believe it. Besides, as the co-pilot, there's rarely an arguement I'll ever win... even if I couldn't be more right. That's life as a co-joe, though!
C/E
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water wings
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Captain Esq. wrote: my operation has published SOP's, but every Captain seems to pick & choose which ones they follow. I try very hard to adhere to them as strictly as I can, and I have no problem if someone points out to me where I'm failing in this. I'll correct it ASAP. But I had one @ssh0le Captain say to me, "When you fly with me, you need to fly it the way I want it flown.
C/E
oh, that will bite your fearless leader in the ass one day. Good for you for adhering to them, as an old fogey i used to work with said "SOPs are written in blood of those before you... a bit dramatic, but they are there for a reason. this is one time, where fighting the power ain't a good idea. Fly safe.
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Snagmaster E
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[quote="water wings]
i used to ba an FA for an airline and the entire crew did CRM, including the dispatchers. As good a course as it was, and sometimes actually interesting, it can't help people who are inherent assholes. It will however (maybe) help the non-assholes better deal with those in question...BUT, I still think the real CRM occured after the course, when we all went for beers at the local pub. cheers![/quote]
Well said.. sometimes some people just never get along, and some just never learn. But i definately agree about the pub part. Sometimes after you drink with a guy, you learn what they're really like and can get along a lot better afterwards...
just my op.
i used to ba an FA for an airline and the entire crew did CRM, including the dispatchers. As good a course as it was, and sometimes actually interesting, it can't help people who are inherent assholes. It will however (maybe) help the non-assholes better deal with those in question...BUT, I still think the real CRM occured after the course, when we all went for beers at the local pub. cheers![/quote]
Well said.. sometimes some people just never get along, and some just never learn. But i definately agree about the pub part. Sometimes after you drink with a guy, you learn what they're really like and can get along a lot better afterwards...
just my op.
Money, wish I had it...
When I was a copilot, one captain said to me.
"Airplanes only have one seat that matters, all the rest are passengers."
I said " fine with me." I called the flight attendent, got a coffee, cracked open my newspaper and said, "fill you boots captain."
I was not well liked as a copilot..................
"Airplanes only have one seat that matters, all the rest are passengers."
I said " fine with me." I called the flight attendent, got a coffee, cracked open my newspaper and said, "fill you boots captain."
I was not well liked as a copilot..................
I feel for your plight, and it is even more difficult at some of the smaller operators (as opposed to larger airlines). But at a larger airline, you can win those arguements. Pretty much, this is the SOP. If you choose to intentionally violate the SOP, and expect the same from me, then I am unable to continue with this pairing. Feel free to fill out your report, as I will mine, and we'll see how the CP/DFO feels about your intentional non-compliance with the procedures that flight ops management and the training department have created and agreed upon.Captain Esq. wrote: Besides, as the co-pilot, there's rarely an arguement I'll ever win... even if I couldn't be more right. That's life as a co-joe, though!
Not that I have ever had to go that far as an FO, but I have had to start down that road. But then both of us realize that my job isn't to be a yes man, and if he continues to manage the cockpit in that manner, there will be repercussions.
I guess fundamentally (and this goes regardless of which seat I am in) I don't believe that an FO's (or 'co-pilot's'
) job is to do whatever the Captain wants, but instead is to ensure the safety of the flight working with the Captain. An FO may not be 'ultimately' responsible, but he or she is still responsible to ensure that the Captain is operating the aircraft safely and efficiently--even if it means questioning the Captain. And I expect the same thing from my FO.-
Cat Driver
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It has always been this way in aviation especially in the smaller operations.
As the years go by we are finally getting more structured crew co ordination in the cockpit, but there will still be captains who can not conform to SOP's and working with them is problematic for first officers in some companies.
Unfortunately there is no one size fits all answer on how to best deal with a rouge Captain but the bottom line is if you feel that a Captain is flying the airplane with disregard to company SOP's or is unsafe your best avenue of solving the problem is first try and resolve it with the person when you are flying together.
If the person is just plain inflexible your next step is to go to the chief pilot and lay out all your concerns.
If that does not solve the problem refuse to fly with the person and if it means you lose your job, so be it.
Life is to short to be treated like a piece of meat rather than a partner in the cockpit...not to mention you don't want some bull headed captain killing you.
Cat
As the years go by we are finally getting more structured crew co ordination in the cockpit, but there will still be captains who can not conform to SOP's and working with them is problematic for first officers in some companies.
Unfortunately there is no one size fits all answer on how to best deal with a rouge Captain but the bottom line is if you feel that a Captain is flying the airplane with disregard to company SOP's or is unsafe your best avenue of solving the problem is first try and resolve it with the person when you are flying together.
If the person is just plain inflexible your next step is to go to the chief pilot and lay out all your concerns.
If that does not solve the problem refuse to fly with the person and if it means you lose your job, so be it.
Life is to short to be treated like a piece of meat rather than a partner in the cockpit...not to mention you don't want some bull headed captain killing you.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
CRM in my airline is mandatory every 6 months for everyone in operations (FAs, Captains, FOs, dispatchers, mechanics, flightwatch, etc) and we try to get management involved as well, as well as administration, human resources, etc... it is called Complete Resource Management here (grew past Company Resource Management when we even invited some prefferred customers and ATC Controllers to our CRM courses).
To be honest... CRM is best taught with actions than in a classroom, but the classroom is a good start.
Now, about the know-it-alls... if they actually KNEW it all, then that'd be sweet, but since nobody really does... well.. that means they're just being pompous.
As an FO, I know that I'm a resource to the captain... if I disagree with his decision, I let him know why I disagree with his decision (I figure the 150-plus people behind us should at least get 2 opinions in the cockpit, whether they agree or not). In the end, the captain is the one in command, and he has the rights and duties that come with this position. He's the one that has to answer all the questions at the end of the day. The way I see it, I adapt to the captain and can fly in different ways and still maintain a completely safe operation.
Here's a little story, a friend of mine was an FO in a DC10, they landed at a high altitude airport (SKBO) with near maximum landing weight... the FO (my friend) was the PF, there was heavy rain and braking effectiveness was reported medium to poor... the aircraft overran the runway. Guess who got screwed really badly... the captain... reason, the company went to the captain and said: "WHY DID YOU LET THE FO LAND THE AIRCRAFT??? UNDER SUCH CONDITIONS THE CAPTAIN SHOULD LAND"... so, there's a thought to ponder upon,
Cheers,
DNB
To be honest... CRM is best taught with actions than in a classroom, but the classroom is a good start.
Now, about the know-it-alls... if they actually KNEW it all, then that'd be sweet, but since nobody really does... well.. that means they're just being pompous.
As an FO, I know that I'm a resource to the captain... if I disagree with his decision, I let him know why I disagree with his decision (I figure the 150-plus people behind us should at least get 2 opinions in the cockpit, whether they agree or not). In the end, the captain is the one in command, and he has the rights and duties that come with this position. He's the one that has to answer all the questions at the end of the day. The way I see it, I adapt to the captain and can fly in different ways and still maintain a completely safe operation.
Here's a little story, a friend of mine was an FO in a DC10, they landed at a high altitude airport (SKBO) with near maximum landing weight... the FO (my friend) was the PF, there was heavy rain and braking effectiveness was reported medium to poor... the aircraft overran the runway. Guess who got screwed really badly... the captain... reason, the company went to the captain and said: "WHY DID YOU LET THE FO LAND THE AIRCRAFT??? UNDER SUCH CONDITIONS THE CAPTAIN SHOULD LAND"... so, there's a thought to ponder upon,
Cheers,
DNB
It is the Captain and the F/O's job to complete the flight safely, as a team, while adhering as closely as possible to the company SOP's.
If the Captain is flying with a good F/O, then there will not usually be any difficulty. If / when one makes a mistake, the other one catches it.
Beyond that, if the Captain asks the F/O to do something; if it is not unsafe, or outside the SOP, then the F/O should do it. I don't mean that the Captain should be worshiped, but he/she should be respected.
The Captain should know better than to ask the F/O so do something stupid anyways.
If a Captain finds that he/she has to resort to using their authority on a regular basis, then one of two things is true:
Either,
1) They suck
or,
2) Their F/O sucks.
Anyone who knows me will remember that I am just as guilty of this in the past as anyone. I now feel bad.
Oh yeah, Doc, in order for a MedEvac crew to work together, the opinion of the Flight Nurse / Paramedic does come into play. If a crew member isn't pulling their weight (including the Nurse) then it makes it harder for everyone to get the job done right. Plus, why ignore the imput of someone who you spend so much time with?
If the Captain is flying with a good F/O, then there will not usually be any difficulty. If / when one makes a mistake, the other one catches it.
Beyond that, if the Captain asks the F/O to do something; if it is not unsafe, or outside the SOP, then the F/O should do it. I don't mean that the Captain should be worshiped, but he/she should be respected.
The Captain should know better than to ask the F/O so do something stupid anyways.
If a Captain finds that he/she has to resort to using their authority on a regular basis, then one of two things is true:
Either,
1) They suck
or,
2) Their F/O sucks.
Anyone who knows me will remember that I am just as guilty of this in the past as anyone. I now feel bad.
Oh yeah, Doc, in order for a MedEvac crew to work together, the opinion of the Flight Nurse / Paramedic does come into play. If a crew member isn't pulling their weight (including the Nurse) then it makes it harder for everyone to get the job done right. Plus, why ignore the imput of someone who you spend so much time with?
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shimmydampner
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mellow_pilot
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???So the Skipper, Gilligan, Mary-Ann, Ginger and the Professor can be Captains as Maroons but the Morons have to take the right seat..... let me guess what seat you are in.
Not sure I get you. Point meant was that occasionally there are idiots in either seat but its much harder, akward for the F/O to deal with then the Captain. I not sure what seat you're in.
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mellow_pilot
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