ATC calls police to meet A/C because FO 'sounded drunk'

[cyyz]

Pilot: well me and the girlfriend were shagging until 3am, then the dog got run over by a car and so we were up the rest of the night scraping him off the pavement.
Terminal: sorry to hear that, you should get more rest, would you like us to do a mid air pilot transfer so that you can get some sleep?

If there is a problem it is up to the pilot to notify ATS not ATS to ask him a bunch of distracting questions to try and determine what's going on. I'm not going to interrupt their priority of Aviate, Navigate, Communicate and if they're communicating by responding to the calls, then they should not be saying roger and ignoring the instructions, they should be ignoring the instruction and declaring an emergency or urgency. We're hear to help you and if you request it, we'll be more than happy to do that.

Like I said before I doubt it was a controller that called the cops, probably one of the 100's of other agencies listening in like the cops themselves that are bored as hell, stationed in the ATB.

If it was someone else the arguement is moot.

But in your("My") scenario, again, after you've established he's fatigued, he's also possibly traumatised(differnt word for it, but he's had a loss of a loved one), so you should call emergency services, "hey 911, I have a pilot who's having issues, I don't think he'll make it...."

it is up to the pilot to notify ATS not ATS to ask him

and on a final note, I thought all the planes on 9/11 were squawking 75 and shit all was done....

So, again, thanks for wasting time on the 1 sounding drunk pilot, as mentioned earlier like that CSR did too, and thanks for neglecting the real problems in the air.... And again, if it was someone else trying to be a hero again, this arguement over the drunk pilot is pointless and we're arguing in circles, but please explain the inaction over 9/11. And I'll just help swede out, they were told to do shit all by the higher ups... =)

[charlie_g]

Back to the original point of this post, and as has already been mentioned, it is not as though this is occurring on a regular basis. If I called the cops every time that I thought the pilot I was talking to was behaving (or handling clearances) as though he was drunk, it would be an almost daily occurence, especially with all the novice IFR pilots that come out of the woodwork in the summer.

Obviously the guy was demonstrating some exceptional & unusual behaviour that led to the action taken, regardless of who initiated the call.

[Hedley]

"Everything" is an overstatement though - I don't have a taildragger endorsement.

Sigh.

There is no such thing as a "tailwheel endorsement" in the CARs. Neither is there an "aerobatic endorsement" or a "ski-plane endorsement", nor is there a "retractable gear endorsement".

Nor is there an endorsement or rating required to fly an aircraft with a constant speed prop, or fuel injection, or a turbocharger, or a geared engine, or a pressurized cabin, or an engine with any amount of horsepower.

All of these aircraft are equal in the eyes of God, or in this specific application of personnel licensing, Tower C.

[scrambled_legs]

If you mean flight service specialist, then, I say again (this must be at least the 4th or 5th thread) that WE ARE REQUIRED TO FILE A REPORT when anything on a long list of things occurs. If we don't do so, and for some reason it comes to light afterward, we are in trouble. ATC has the same list. If they aren't filing the reports, then it comes to light afterward, THEY will be in trouble. We even have to file reports when WE f*&k up. (Probably get in the worst trouble for not filing those ones!)

Lifesister if I wrote up every pilot that screwed up at my airport, I'd have gotten every pilot that flies into the field in trouble at some point. I try and help those that just made an honest mistake that never created a dangerous situation, off the hook.

The other day I had someone take off after only being told to go to position. I deal with this pilot daily and he is usually very accomodating for my needs helping me out whenever he can and being understanding when I can't give him his requests. As a result I don't want a little brain farht to land him in hot water there was no conflicting traffic, so as he was rotating, I cleared him for take off. Now on the other hand, if it was a jerk with an attitude like Hedley, I'd have pulled out the pen and paper. If you think we do nothing but charge you fees and use and abuse every right that you have as a pilot, continuously causing us nothing but problems, I won't risk my job to help you out. It's a give and take relationship and if someone will help me out, I'll risk getting in shit to help them out.

Now FSS (better not call you Radio... seems like a touchy subject) don't have nearly as much traffic and it'd be easy to pull the tapes for a full month and review them, so I can understand why there are a lot more boy scouts on that side of things. The problem is that there are numerous FSS that will go above and beyond to try and pull rank on you. I've been threatened to be written up for flying in formation, departing in front of a landing aircraft, flying in adverse but legal weather etc. In all cases I had to explain to the badge behind the mic that what I was doing wasn't illegal and to go back to reading his CARS.

I don't want to group you all together as I have some good friends who are FSS, I just wish more would think before putting pen to paper or speaking. If you think someone is missing a call, instead of letting them continue inbound go, "last station calling radio (or should it be FSS), you were broken was that GIHL reporting right base?" There was no last station calling but if NC ever craps on you, just say you thought you heard someone call. Little things like this keep up a good relationship and make everyone happy and you can't get in trouble for them.

[scrambled_legs]

But in your("My") scenario, again, after you've established he's fatigued, he's also possibly traumatised(differnt word for it, but he's had a loss of a loved one), so you should call emergency services, "hey 911, I have a pilot who's having issues, I don't think he'll make it...."

First off I will not play 100 questions to try and determine why a pilot is acting drunk. If he is completely incompetant and shouldn't be in the air and hasn't given me a good reason for this, I'll file paperwork and let him explain to TC why he was so clueless. If he gets out of the plane and staggers to the FBO with a beer in hand then I'll call the cops.

Second if he came out and said My apologies, I just worked a really long day and I was misunderstanding the first transmissions, I wouldn't file paperwork unless he caused an OI. If you want me to call emergency services for every fatigued pilot, I better keep the trucks out for every arrival/departure and 911 on hold.

[Hedley]

if it was a jerk with an attitude like Hedley, I'd have pulled out the pen and paper

Thank you for acting as professionally as we have come to expect every other government employee to act

It would be really nice change if you could perform your duties in a PROFESSIONAL manner, not playing favorites like a goddamned gradeschool playground.

It's easy to see why some people avoid the private sector.

[scrambled_legs]

hahahaha.... it's not a matter of playing favorites, its a matter of helping those that help you.

Why would I risk my ass for some guy who does nothing but come on here and bitch and moan about how incompetant controllers are and how ridiculous it is that he was once asked to keep the speed up. I may be reading you wrong but you sound like one of those pilots that'll fly through all the active approach/departure paths at 3,000 feet and five miles, without talking to anyone, just because you can.

Some pilots have a real respect for our job and I can count on them day after day to do exactly what I need them to do and to bail me out if I ever get into a tight situation. In the same way, I'll go out of my way to help them out.

On the other hand, I won't go out of my way to get someone like yourself in trouble but I definately won't risk my job to help you out.

[bij]

I've been threatened to be written up for flying in formation, departing in front of a landing aircraft, flying in adverse but legal weather etc.

if it was a jerk with an attitude like Hedley, I'd have pulled out the pen and paper

...hmmm, I wonder how that particular RADIO operater felt about you???

[scrambled_legs]

Bij, not sure how he could have an opinion as the attack usually came on first call. The point is that none of what I have described is an illegal action nor will it affect anyone around me. I will never bitch at a pilot for pushing limits, that's his choice especially something as simple as flying in formation. But there are actions out there that don't push personal limits but endanger those around you and those are unacceptable, legal or not. Flying in minimum weather doesn't affect those around you. Flying formation doesn't affect those around you. Taking off with loads of space between you and an arrival does not affect those around you. Hell, I've let it run 10 times tighter as a controller, not sure what his problem was, it was well within controlled seperation standards.

Flying through an approach at 5 miles and 3,000 feet without talking to anyone is not illegal but is stupid and will affect those around you. Acknowledging ATC instructions but ignoring them, is illegal, is stupid and will affect those around you. These are the things that should piss of a Radio operator, not the above.

[bij]

We all use discretion when writing anyone up. We do not do it out of spite, as your post suggested, and it is not a popularity contest.

As for the FSS who was threatening to write you up, I can only imagine how that played out, and can't say I have witnessed anyone with such a childish attitude in my workplace. If more people,(pilots, controllers, and FSS) could let the ego go, things might run a little smoother.

Just out of curiousity, how did FSS say he/she was going to write you up if you departing/flying in mins?

[Hedley]

you sound like one of those pilots that'll fly through all the active approach/departure paths at 3,000 feet and five miles, without talking to anyone, just because you can

What on earth are you talking about? Where did I say that?

[scrambled_legs]

Hedley, I said you "sound like" one of those pilots. Like I had mentioned I may be reading you wrong and if so I apologize. I've just read numerous comments from you bitching about how we do our jobs and how it's no wonder why pilots don't talk to us anymore when they don't have to. It was an inference and if it was a wrong one then I take it back.

Bij, I don't think the FSS realised that there isn't a ceiling cap on special conditions. The vis was good but the ceiling low and being over flat barren land and water until inbound landing, I didn't see it being an issue. Apparently he did.

[bij]

So it sounds as if the FSS was mistaken, and probably pretty green. Did he try to get you Special? or try to say that unable special? did you want to fly into MF anyways(before getting special vfr) and therefore he wanted to file an occurence?

It in no way sounds as if FSS was on a power trip as you stated and was probably just mistaken.. it does not sound like anyone "pulling rank"

[scrambled_legs]

We're getting a little sidetracked here but to answer your question, he wanted to deny me special. If he was green that's understandable but it seems to be larger than that. I can't list how many briefings I've had where the FSS took it upon themselves to tell me that I'm an idiot to file a flight plan after the briefing that they gave me. I know you're required to say VFR not recommended but leave it at that. Maybe the units that I deal with on a regular basis have a few bored workers but they always seem to take it upon themselves to tell me that I'm doing something wrong.

I've been tempted to send the FSS pictures of the flights I've done after they've practically refused to allow me to file and told me that I was an idiot for trying. A lot of times it was CAVOK. This happens a lot between Ottawa and N.Y. as the weather station at the lake always has lake effect in the winter and the one in the mountains to the east, uplift fog and low cloud. A lot of times a line inbetween will be screaming VFR.

I don't want to bunch you all together as the vast majority of the time you're great but there are some real boy scout pencil pushers in a few of the units and all I was saying is that I've never see that in ATC. That's why I really doubt that ATC called the police and not some manager, ATB stationed cop, Commisionaire, or FBO, who was listening in on the frequency.

[bij]

...and my point is that there are a few real boy scouts in every are of this industry. and not just FSS. Just because in your experience you happen to have run into someone who happened to have a brain fart (no ceiling capon SVFR) on the fss side of things, doesn;t mean that ATC are not capable of the same idiotic behavior. And where you said that a pilot who simply has a "brain fart" wouldn't be worth writing up, it was worth saying that FSS are pencil pushing boy scouts, for one FSS's error?


I am sorry for bringing things way off track. I take exception to the fact that legs doesn't seem to think that FSS has the discretion to make such a judgement calls and therefore file everything.

[scrambled_legs]

Bij, there have been numerous events, the svfr was just one example as was the formation and taking off in front of traffic on approach. Like I said, for the vast majority of the time they do a great job but I won't say that an FSS won't go out of his way to write you up or call the cops as it's happend to me personally several times over. I've never experienced this by ATC, where the majority of my flying took place under.

The reason I brought this up was the comment by your fellow FSS that you are required to write everything up without discretion. Maybe you should have a talk with her and some of your other units. I appreciate your common sense take on things and wish it was like that everywhere.

[bij]

it sounds more like sour grapes to me. If you are having all of these problems with one person or station, and if you are undoubtedly in the right, file a complaint. As for SVFR, we are not the ones who approve it or deny it. we are simply the messenger. it comes from center. as for someone writing you up unnecessarily, if it was indeed nothing wrong, it wouldn't make it past the shift supervisors desk and would definitely not make to TC.

I don't expect change your mind about anything, but I completely disagree with your views of FSS. That said I will digress

[lilfssister]

Flying through an approach at 5 miles and 3,000 feet without talking to anyone is not illegal but is stupid and will affect those around you.

Well, considering that most MF areas are 5 miles and 3000 feet AAE, it is indeed "illegal". If you're 5.1 miles and 3100 feet AAE, have at 'er! As you said, THAT would be legal, but not great airmanship.

[lilfssister]

Now FSS (better not call you Radio... seems like a touchy subject)

My Radiotelephony callsign sign is "Radio". I am an FSS (Flight Service Specialist) who works at an FSS (Flight Service Station). Is a person who works in a TCU and whose callsign is "Terminal " a Terminal Operator?

FSS evolved from what used to be called Aeradio Operators. There are still radio operators. They work for Coast Guard (and I may be wrong on that, they may have a new name since our union, which used to represent both, split a few years back).

[lilfssister]

Like I said, for the vast majority of the time they do a great job but I won't say that an FSS won't go out of his way to write you up or call the cops as it's happend to me personally several times over. I've never experienced this by ATC, where the majority of my flying took place under.

Well, perhaps as the majority of your flying was at controlled aiports you knew the procedures better? Just a thought...may not be true.

The reason I brought this up was the comment by your fellow FSS that you are required to write everything up without discretion. Maybe you should have a talk with her and some of your other units. I appreciate your common sense take on things and wish it was like that everywhere.

I think if you ask a supervisor, UPS/UOS, or shift manager, you will find that you have NO discretion in writing it up/reporting it. However, as I think you said earlier, the chances that it will be discovered through routine monitoring is much slimmer at an ATC unit.

[lilfssister]

Edited to say: Don't try to watch a hockey game and post at the same time

[lilfssister]

We're getting a little sidetracked here but to answer your question, he wanted to deny me special. If he was green that's understandable but it seems to be larger than that. I can't list how many briefings I've had where the FSS took it upon themselves to tell me that I'm an idiot to file a flight plan after the briefing that they gave me. I know you're required to say VFR not recommended but leave it at that. Maybe the units that I deal with on a regular basis have a few bored workers but they always seem to take it upon themselves to tell me that I'm doing something wrong.

I've been tempted to send the FSS pictures of the flights I've done after they've practically refused to allow me to file and told me that I was an idiot for trying. A lot of times it was CAVOK. This happens a lot between Ottawa and N.Y. as the weather station at the lake always has lake effect in the winter and the one in the mountains to the east, uplift fog and low cloud. A lot of times a line inbetween will be screaming VFR.

I don't want to bunch you all together as the vast majority of the time you're great but there are some real boy scout pencil pushers in a few of the units and all I was saying is that I've never see that in ATC. That's why I really doubt that ATC called the police and not some manager, ATB stationed cop, Commisionaire, or FBO, who was listening in on the frequency.

"VFR not recommended" is no longer used, not sure since when, but I would say at least a year, if not more.

[lilfssister]

We're getting a little sidetracked here but to answer your question, he wanted to deny me special. If he was green that's understandable but it seems to be larger than that.

The FSS has no authority to deny you SVFR. If in our opinion it is below the limits for SVFR, we still must call the ACC, and say "CF-WTF is requesting SVFR to enter/leave the zone, wx is ceiling 200 broken, visibilty 1/2 mile".

[grimey]

"VFR not recommended" is no longer used, not sure since when, but I would say at least a year, if not more.

April 2005. For experienced pilots, it really is fairly useless. For some low time guys, it would be nice to be able to tell them they're nuts for wanting to depart VFR in certain conditions, especially when you're watching them and the weather right outside the tower window.


edit: lil, how do you have time to watch the game posting all that?

[lilfssister]

it sounds more like sour grapes to me. If you are having all of these problems with one person or station, and if you are undoubtedly in the right, file a complaint.

I believe I've said this 5 or 6 or a thousand times. Going in with the "This guy/gal is out to get me" attitude is not a good idea. I've seen that escalate to EVERYBODY being on the offensive, and it gets WAY out of hand. Get it investigated, clear the air, etc. If the FSS that is the thorn in your side is in the wrong, believe me, they'll be told to shape up.