I'm not asking him to "assume" anything. Just ADVISE. But, that's too much to ask, I guess. Oh well, I've left the building on this one.
Doc
I like hearing about traffic clearing at the end...
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scrambled_legs
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Doc, tanker pilots are not neccessarily local pilots. They fly where the fires are. If there are bad fires three provinces over then they fly there. If there's no fires down south and Canada is getting hit hard, then who know's he might even be a Yank flying in Canada for the first time. You might know this pilot personally and know that he's 100% right all the time, but the FSS doesn't know that and has to assume the worst.
Like I said before, you can rely on pilot reports and 90% or more of the time you'll be safe. To complain about someone forcing you to look out the window and ensure that a pilot is where he reported to be in order to be 100% safe, is not a bad thing.
As far as following without visual, that is an impossibility. Try jumping in a cab and saying Follow that blue car 1 block ahead. He'll say where is he? You say just follow him! He'll say is he speeding up, slowing down, in the right lane, or in the left? How the hell can I follow him if I can't see him!!! You can't use "airmanship" as CYYZ stated, to follow something you can't see. You are not following, you are simply continuing inbound in the hope that you are still behind him and following him.
Just to add something for those out there that believe pilots that have reached a certain level or are using quality equipment will never be somewhere and think they're somewhere else, please use some common sense and realise that everyone messes up somewhat regularly. I seem to recall an Airbus about to touch down in Vernon when they were intending to land in Kelowna. I also recall a LJ35 landing on a drag strip that they believed was their destination airport. These are just 2 high profile major mistakes that everyone has heard about. Imagine if people this qualified and using equipment this advanced, can make this big of a mistake, just think what kind of mistakes controllers/fss see on a daily basis that aren't big enough for the public to hear about. I don't know how else to convince you but never trust a pilot report without verifying that he's telling the truth. Look out the window, if you don't see anything then keep looking and eventually ask for an update.
Like I said before, you can rely on pilot reports and 90% or more of the time you'll be safe. To complain about someone forcing you to look out the window and ensure that a pilot is where he reported to be in order to be 100% safe, is not a bad thing.
As far as following without visual, that is an impossibility. Try jumping in a cab and saying Follow that blue car 1 block ahead. He'll say where is he? You say just follow him! He'll say is he speeding up, slowing down, in the right lane, or in the left? How the hell can I follow him if I can't see him!!! You can't use "airmanship" as CYYZ stated, to follow something you can't see. You are not following, you are simply continuing inbound in the hope that you are still behind him and following him.
Just to add something for those out there that believe pilots that have reached a certain level or are using quality equipment will never be somewhere and think they're somewhere else, please use some common sense and realise that everyone messes up somewhat regularly. I seem to recall an Airbus about to touch down in Vernon when they were intending to land in Kelowna. I also recall a LJ35 landing on a drag strip that they believed was their destination airport. These are just 2 high profile major mistakes that everyone has heard about. Imagine if people this qualified and using equipment this advanced, can make this big of a mistake, just think what kind of mistakes controllers/fss see on a daily basis that aren't big enough for the public to hear about. I don't know how else to convince you but never trust a pilot report without verifying that he's telling the truth. Look out the window, if you don't see anything then keep looking and eventually ask for an update.
Last edited by scrambled_legs on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Freefall brought up a point i was thinking about a few posts back. Shouldn't all calls at an airport with a FSS groundstation at an MF be addressed to the ground station?
Regardless of that, we pilots study and are taught right from the beginning that seperation anytime when VFR is our responsibility. Are FSS specialists taught it is theirs? If so something needs to be changed because you can't have two seperate parties responsible for the same thing.
Also it comes back to Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. While looking for the traffic is important there is no reason to be pestered. The pilot will tell you when he has the traffic. If he says no everytime hes asked what is the response from FSS? Continue asking? Suggest a go around? Nothing? They all amount to Nothing in the end anyway.
Controllers don't even ask that often.
That being said I think FSS specialists are great and very helpful. And sure go ahead and ask the tanker where he is again to get better info for the guy following behind, but repeatdly asking
Do you see him?
How about now...do you see him now? Its not helping anyone.
Keep in mind I'm going only on the info in this thread.
BTD
Regardless of that, we pilots study and are taught right from the beginning that seperation anytime when VFR is our responsibility. Are FSS specialists taught it is theirs? If so something needs to be changed because you can't have two seperate parties responsible for the same thing.
Also it comes back to Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. While looking for the traffic is important there is no reason to be pestered. The pilot will tell you when he has the traffic. If he says no everytime hes asked what is the response from FSS? Continue asking? Suggest a go around? Nothing? They all amount to Nothing in the end anyway.
Controllers don't even ask that often.
That being said I think FSS specialists are great and very helpful. And sure go ahead and ask the tanker where he is again to get better info for the guy following behind, but repeatdly asking
Do you see him?
How about now...do you see him now? Its not helping anyone.
Keep in mind I'm going only on the info in this thread.
BTD
FYI as far as I know you cannot enter the zone prior to contacting the FSS on the MF. So if the frequency is congested due to a conflict, and someone else wanting to enter the zone cannot get a word in, that 3rd party has to remain outside the zone. So no potential hazard. And if a 3rd party does "show up" without making the mandatory reports, you can be sure the FSS will file an AOR. Because they have to. Tapes are randomly checked at audits and if something like that is not AOR'd then the FSS gets in trouble. Believe me, we don't enjoy doing the paper work. But it's part of our duties.
Oh sure! We ALWAYS fly around just outside the zone, because we cant talk to the great almighty FSS guy! Give your head a shake!!! If FSS dosent answer....for whatever reason...we make an advisory prior to entering the zone...period! That is what's required. We do not have to circle like so many vultures until he is..off the phone...off the can...or whatever. There is no requirement to establish communications with FSS...just to state intentions on the MF.
I'm getting this mental image of several aircraft circling "hole in the wall" while YXL FSS gets a clearence from YWG on the phone! Just would never happen!
I'm getting this mental image of several aircraft circling "hole in the wall" while YXL FSS gets a clearence from YWG on the phone! Just would never happen!
Doc, is the problem specific to RAAS or to dealing with FIC? NC is in the process of handing back RAAS to advisory sites again, because FIC staff where having troubles staying current on each site. Will that help solve your issue. Or is it with the advisory service all over? Due you find the same problems when flying in a MF with FSS on site?
It seems that pilots either love us or hate us, with little room in between. The critcisms are taken with a grain of salt, and the praise is always welcome. I do enjoy reading comments about ATS, it helps to hear how we are performing. or perceived. Most of us are trying to do our jobs well, and get great satisfaction from that. If the FSS was bugging you too much, why not have said "will let you know when we have the traffic?"
It seems that pilots either love us or hate us, with little room in between. The critcisms are taken with a grain of salt, and the praise is always welcome. I do enjoy reading comments about ATS, it helps to hear how we are performing. or perceived. Most of us are trying to do our jobs well, and get great satisfaction from that. If the FSS was bugging you too much, why not have said "will let you know when we have the traffic?"
sorry Doc,
I forgot to mention that they can either talk to FSS or broadcast. But it seems here people are talking about frequency congestion. Well if the frequency is congested and you are unable to either contact the FSS or broadcast your intentions, you have to stay outside the zone. Anyway, I've had times where I had to wait for the pilot to finish his personal conversation on the MF with another pilot to get a word in. And we're not talking traffic talk, we're talking how was your weekend talk. If it's busy, we don't want to know about your weekend. Take it to company frequency.
I forgot to mention that they can either talk to FSS or broadcast. But it seems here people are talking about frequency congestion. Well if the frequency is congested and you are unable to either contact the FSS or broadcast your intentions, you have to stay outside the zone. Anyway, I've had times where I had to wait for the pilot to finish his personal conversation on the MF with another pilot to get a word in. And we're not talking traffic talk, we're talking how was your weekend talk. If it's busy, we don't want to know about your weekend. Take it to company frequency.
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lilfssister
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Perhaps someone should tell TC that on their website, CARs is out of date? 
Appears to me that all reports required to be made in 602.99 thru 602.104 shall be
directed to the ground station
General MF Reporting Requirements
602.98 (1) Every report made pursuant to this Division shall be made on the mandatory frequency that has been specified for use in the applicable MF area.
(2) Every report referred to in subsection (1) shall be
(a) directed to the ground station associated with the MF area, if a ground station exists and is in operation; or
(b) broadcast, if a ground station does not exist or is not in operation.
MF Reporting Procedures before Entering Manoeuvring Area
602.99 The pilot-in-command of a VFR or IFR aircraft that is operated at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report the pilot-in-command's intentions before entering the manoeuvring area of the aerodrome.
MF Reporting Procedures on Departure
602.100 The pilot-in-command of a VFR or IFR aircraft that is departing from an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall
(a) before moving onto the take-off surface, report the pilot-in-command's departure procedure intentions;
(b) before take-off, ascertain by radiocommunication and by visual observation that there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle during take-off; and
(c) after take-off, report departing from the aerodrome traffic circuit.
MF Reporting Procedures on Arrival
602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report
(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;
(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;
(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;
(d) when on final approach; and
(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.
MF Reporting Procedures When Flying Continuous Circuits
602.102 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft carrying out continuous circuits at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report
(a) when joining the downwind leg of the circuit;
(b) when on final approach, stating the pilot-in-command's intentions; and
(c) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.
Reporting Procedures When Flying through an MF Area
602.103 The pilot-in-command of an aircraft flying through an MF area shall report
(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position and altitude and the pilot-in-command's intentions; and
(b) when clear of the MF area.
Reporting Procedures for IFR Aircraft When Approaching or Landing at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome
602.104 (1) This section applies to persons operating IFR aircraft when approaching or landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome, whether or not the aerodrome lies within an MF area.
(2) The pilot-in-command of an IFR aircraft who intends to conduct an approach to or a landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome shall report
(a) the pilot-in-command's intentions regarding the operation of the aircraft
(i) five minutes before the estimated time of commencing the approach procedure, stating the estimated time of landing,
(ii) when commencing a circling manoeuvre, and
(iii) as soon as practicable after initiating a missed approach procedure; and
(b) the aircraft's position
(i) when passing the fix outbound, where the pilot-in-command intends to conduct a procedure turn or, if no procedure turn is intended, when the aircraft first intercepts the final approach course,
(ii) when passing the final approach fix or three minutes before the estimated time of landing where no final approach fix exists, and
(iii) on final approach.
P.S.: Sorry for using all the bandwith, but apparently some of you have never read this?
P.P.S: I know that does not cover the circumstance of the original post, so you don't need to point it out, if you're thinking about it
Appears to me that all reports required to be made in 602.99 thru 602.104 shall be
directed to the ground station
General MF Reporting Requirements
602.98 (1) Every report made pursuant to this Division shall be made on the mandatory frequency that has been specified for use in the applicable MF area.
(2) Every report referred to in subsection (1) shall be
(a) directed to the ground station associated with the MF area, if a ground station exists and is in operation; or
(b) broadcast, if a ground station does not exist or is not in operation.
MF Reporting Procedures before Entering Manoeuvring Area
602.99 The pilot-in-command of a VFR or IFR aircraft that is operated at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report the pilot-in-command's intentions before entering the manoeuvring area of the aerodrome.
MF Reporting Procedures on Departure
602.100 The pilot-in-command of a VFR or IFR aircraft that is departing from an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall
(a) before moving onto the take-off surface, report the pilot-in-command's departure procedure intentions;
(b) before take-off, ascertain by radiocommunication and by visual observation that there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle during take-off; and
(c) after take-off, report departing from the aerodrome traffic circuit.
MF Reporting Procedures on Arrival
602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report
(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;
(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;
(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;
(d) when on final approach; and
(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.
MF Reporting Procedures When Flying Continuous Circuits
602.102 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft carrying out continuous circuits at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report
(a) when joining the downwind leg of the circuit;
(b) when on final approach, stating the pilot-in-command's intentions; and
(c) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.
Reporting Procedures When Flying through an MF Area
602.103 The pilot-in-command of an aircraft flying through an MF area shall report
(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position and altitude and the pilot-in-command's intentions; and
(b) when clear of the MF area.
Reporting Procedures for IFR Aircraft When Approaching or Landing at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome
602.104 (1) This section applies to persons operating IFR aircraft when approaching or landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome, whether or not the aerodrome lies within an MF area.
(2) The pilot-in-command of an IFR aircraft who intends to conduct an approach to or a landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome shall report
(a) the pilot-in-command's intentions regarding the operation of the aircraft
(i) five minutes before the estimated time of commencing the approach procedure, stating the estimated time of landing,
(ii) when commencing a circling manoeuvre, and
(iii) as soon as practicable after initiating a missed approach procedure; and
(b) the aircraft's position
(i) when passing the fix outbound, where the pilot-in-command intends to conduct a procedure turn or, if no procedure turn is intended, when the aircraft first intercepts the final approach course,
(ii) when passing the final approach fix or three minutes before the estimated time of landing where no final approach fix exists, and
(iii) on final approach.
P.S.: Sorry for using all the bandwith, but apparently some of you have never read this?
P.P.S: I know that does not cover the circumstance of the original post, so you don't need to point it out, if you're thinking about it
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lilfssister
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I'm surprised to hear you have any hair! You seem to pull a lot of it out over uncontrolled airports procedures. I'm putting a stop to this BS with everyone being fecking robots and quoting the regs to the rest of us like we are fecking idiots or something.squibbler wrote:Jeez, is this thread still going?
I'm losing the will to live!
Doc's question(s) was simple;
- i) He's made it clear to everyone here about 'FFS buddy on the mic' was just doing his job.
ii) Who does he call to start the process to bring this to a table for discussion @ NavCanada for possible future changes?
iii) Will everyone stop quoting the fecking regs on here everytime someone wants to question the thinking behind some parts of the fecking regs? Feck me you fecking feckers, feck. !!
To Doc:
It took me 2 years to get Nav Canada to start the process for a national numbering system of every province's Birddog aircraft across the country.
Reason behind my request:
Every Tanker would have a unique number to that aircraft no matter what province they went into. So the same should be said about the Birddog aircraft for the following reasons;
- i) Easier Navacada billing. I used to get bills from other provinces BD aircraft because it was the same call sign numbering as ours (eg: Birddog 3 in Ontario and in Manitoba)
ii) I can't tell you how many times have I flown in WInnipeg with two Birddog 8 Aircraft calling in the same zone and once we were in the same area inbound!!!
However, it takes time for the wheels to start rolling. I was on the phone with NavCanada big wigs in YOW to bring this to the table.
I was no longer part of the process when I no longer worked for my last employer, but I was glad I planted the seed in the name of safety for my ex-colleagues
I say start the process Doc, bring this to the Nav Canada table. It's important.
IABD
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lilfssister
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Like I said, it is obvious that some people posting on avcanada have never read it. So the non-idiots can skip it.I am Birddog wrote:I'm putting a stop to this BS with everyone being fecking robots and quoting the regs to the rest of us like we are fecking idiots or something.
Sounds like an excellent idea! Glad you were able to get the ball rolling in it.I am Birddog wrote:I took the initiative to implement a national standard to have every birddog aircraft in Canada a unique number attatched to it. I just heard a month ago it is being implemented or is going to be and I am happy to say that I feel good I made a difference in the name of safety by bringing this to light.
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lilfssister
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FSS [quote]
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justplanecrazy
- Rank 8
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Come on guys give the FSS a break. If you lived in buttfuck nowhere you'd want to talk for as long as possible to every human coming from normal land too.
We have no effective screening methods to make sure pilots are sane.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
