Is it that bad at AC for pilots? I mean food stamp bad!

[DanWEC]

Regarding the use of food banks... I think there's something ethically wrong if you use a food bank because you intentionally work at a low paying job which doesn't cover your mortgage and living costs... Almost all AC pilots on flat pay can go work at another company and make more money. Perhaps food banks should be reserved for people who don't have that alternative option available?

Digits,

To create some sort of qualification system causes exclusion, which completely and fundamentally goes against the food bank mandate, both ethically and philosophically.

It's entire purpose is to provide food to people to need it, regardless of why. People don't just shown up for fun.

At our very foundation is the concept that nobody knows *what someone else is going through* and that's all there is to it. We provide food to people who have decided they need it. That's all.

Trust me, very, very few people are abusing it. Quite the exact opposite, nowhere near enough people can swallow their pride enough to use the food cupboard even if they need to. It's actually a service gap more than anything. Think about what that takes for a person, a parent, a provider, a father, (A pilot?!) to accept?

We've had people pull up in luxury cars, but then you have to ask yourself why? It's a 99.99% chance that the woman driving a Mercedes is not just taking food for fun. Why would they do that? Maybe it was loaned, maybe it was just sold and it's the last vestige of normality, maybe they just lost everything overnight. Who knows, but that's not our place. People need to eat.

If you apply your filter, some 1st year resident physicians swimming in debt who can barely afford ramen, didn't get a great forgiveness repayment scheme, can't live at home or draw more loans, can't take our food because they'll make good money someday. So they starve?

Bottom line, we're not in the space to fix these systemic issues. The whole fricking country is becoming a systemic issue. The bank just feeds people who need it.
(And they badly need volunteers and donations.)

[digits_]

Regarding the use of food banks... I think there's something ethically wrong if you use a food bank because you intentionally work at a low paying job which doesn't cover your mortgage and living costs... Almost all AC pilots on flat pay can go work at another company and make more money. Perhaps food banks should be reserved for people who don't have that alternative option available?

Digits,

To create some sort of qualification system causes exclusion, which completely and fundamentally goes against the food bank mandate, both ethically and philosophically.

The entire purpose of it is to provide food to people to need it, regardless of why. People don't just shown up for fun.

At our very foundation is the concept that nobody knows *what someone else is going through* and that's all there is to it. We provide food to people who have decided they need it. That's all.

Trust me, very, very few people are abusing it. Quite the exact opposite, nowhere near enough people can swallow their pride enough to use the food cupboard even if they need to. It's actually a service gap more than anything. Think about what that takes for a person, a parent, a provider, a father, (A pilot?!) to accept?

We've had people pull up in luxury cars, but then you have to ask yourself why? It's a 99.99% chance that the woman driving a Mercedes is not just taking food for fun. Why would they do that? Maybe it was loaned, maybe it was just sold and it's the last vestige of normality, maybe they just lost everything overnight. Who knows, but that's not our place. People need to eat.

If you apply your filter, some 1st year resident physicians swimming in debt who can barely afford ramen, didn't get a great forgiveness repayment scheme, can't live at home or draw more loans, can't take our food because they'll make good money someday. So they starve?

Bottom line, we're not in the space to fix these systemic issues. The whole fricking country is becoming a systemic issue. The bank just feeds people who need it.
(And they badly need volunteers and donations.)

I am not trying to apply any filter. If you need it, you need it. I do think there's a significant difference between a student or first year resident and someone with an established pilot career who -in this pilot job market - prefers to go to the food bank over taking another better paying job.

[digits_]

I can't help but notice that the core issue of this topic (and other similar ones) can be interpreted as "trying to have it all". And while I am of the philosophy one can certainly try to achieve that, it's perhaps not the sanest strategy for everyone. You don't need to live in Toronto in an overpriced apartment and fly for AC on flat pay. You don't have to do either of those things. Life in Canada can be pretty good outside of city centers, flying for other companies.

I don't see many topics about Perimeter pilots needing food banks in Winnipeg or Wasaya pilots needing help in Thunder Bay. Are these glorious companies? Perhaps not. But as this topic is illustrating, neither is life at AC!

Canada may have systemic issues, but there's a lot structural changes one can make that would alleviate a lot of financial pressure.

Nothing of this is directed towards the posters sharing their personal situation by the way. It's a recurring theme in a lot of topics. Don't accept the conditions if they don't work for you. You do have options, especially nowadays.

[sullecpt]

Everyone who took flat pay knew what they were getting into. They signed up for terrible pay by choice. Doesn't this tell management everything they need to know about the Canadian pilot supply? There are better paying options yet people still line up, ready for abuse. What a sad state Canada is

I dont know what Canadian pilots consider a world class contract. I will have my popcorn ready. Flair looks world class by the bar AC has set.

[bcflyer]

Sorry to hear that dude. Rates are high right now also. Hope you can make it work.

Thanks. If this new contract isn't great I will most likely be forced to leave in search of better pay/lower cost of living. I don't regret trying the whole AC thing its just not sustainable these days on flat pay with a wife, kids, and mortgage.

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

Where are you going to go? I’m genuinely curious. People say that all the time but very few leave.

[Ash Ketchum]

Thanks. If this new contract isn't great I will most likely be forced to leave in search of better pay/lower cost of living. I don't regret trying the whole AC thing its just not sustainable these days on flat pay with a wife, kids, and mortgage.

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

Where are you going to go? I’m genuinely curious. People say that all the time but very few leave.

I personally have a background in a high paying engineering field which I have maintained my skills/network in so I can jump back into that (and probably get sponsored to work in the US as well). That being said, staying at AC is plan A but management needs to step up to the plate big time and give us the contract we all deserve.

[yowflyer23]

As someone flying at the AC regional, my personal minimum is $100k year 1 and $120k by year 2 in the new contract for me to consider flowing with the intention of staying long term. If that isn’t met, I will be applying overseas or doing whatever is necessary to make my resume look attractive overseas (i.e. upgrading or getting a desirable type rating and dipping). Yes, I may go overseas only to eventually return to Canada at the bottom of the list somewhere, but the longer it takes for me to pay off my student debt, the longer it will take me to save up for a house, invest, etc. I personally need some good increases short term if I ever want to be in a position to save for a retirement. I am only just breaking even right now (I rely on per diems and overtime for anything extra/unexpected) and I make $10k more than a year 1 AC 777 FO flying a 76 seat jet.

At Qantas for comparison, they make $130k CAD starting on the 737. Australia has a strikingly similar economy with a relatively small population spread out over long distances. Our dollars are very close in valuation. No reason we can’t reach parity when AC has operating margins higher than all of the US airlines.

[Fanblade]

There is a lot of finger pointing going on in this thread.

I’m almost out the door. So I’m part of the generation that got us here. And yes it’s bad.

I can equivocally state to everyone that without determined pilots coming to Air Canada over the last decade. Coming here with the intention to make change. Nothing would be changing. We would not be ALPA. We probably wouldn’t have exited the opener.

We would most certainly not be talking about a WCC today.

Those pilots taking the flat pay jobs are the lifeblood of the movement you see today. To them I have full respect. Without them none of what is going on today exists.

Let’s get this done and make your sacrifice worthwhile.

[unionism101]

There is a lot of finger pointing going on in this thread.

I’m almost out the door. So I’m part of the generation that got us here. And yes it’s bad.

I can equivocally state to everyone that without determined pilots coming to Air Canada over the last decade. Coming here with the intention to make change. Nothing would be changing. We would not be ALPA. We probably wouldn’t have exited the opener.

We would most certainly not be talking about a WCC today.

Those pilots taking the flat pay jobs are the lifeblood of the movement you see today. To them I have full respect. Without them none of what is going on today exists.

Let’s get this done and make your sacrifice worthwhile.

Let's Fing do this FanBlade! You're a beauty and if your whole generation was as intelligent and analytical as you, we would not be in the predicament we are in

[thepoors]

Thanks. If this new contract isn't great I will most likely be forced to leave in search of better pay/lower cost of living. I don't regret trying the whole AC thing its just not sustainable these days on flat pay with a wife, kids, and mortgage.

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

Where are you going to go? I’m genuinely curious. People say that all the time but very few leave.

I'll go back to corporate. I took the gamble on AC for a schedule, pension, and "job security." Why not grab a seniority number now, because if the contract does turn out to be good there will be a flood of people rushing to AC.

But if the contract doesn't bring starting pay up into 6 digits then the math ain't mathing. Especially when the standard for left seat of a midsize biz jet is now in the realm of 180k/yr.

[bcflyer]

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

Where are you going to go? I’m genuinely curious. People say that all the time but very few leave.

I'll go back to corporate. I took the gamble on AC for a schedule, pension, and "job security." Why not grab a seniority number now, because if the contract does turn out to be good there will be a flood of people rushing to AC.

But if the contract doesn't bring starting pay up into 6 digits then the math ain't mathing. Especially when the standard for left seat of a midsize biz jet is now in the realm of 180k/yr.

Interesting. How’s the job security in the corporate world? Working conditions? I’m genuinely curious as I was never exposed to that kind of flying in my career.

[newlygrounded]

Thanks. If this new contract isn't great I will most likely be forced to leave in search of better pay/lower cost of living. I don't regret trying the whole AC thing its just not sustainable these days on flat pay with a wife, kids, and mortgage.

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

Highly doubt this. Will there be some that walk? Sure, but it won't be anywhere near enough for the company to even notice. Everyone that joined in the last 12 years, knew what they were getting when they joined. They're certainly not going to leave when they get a salary bump with the new contract. Mr. Ash has been vocal about definitely leaving if the new contract isn't up to snuff. He has already changed his tune and is now saying he'd, "most likely leave". Conveniently, he has never mentioned his stay/walk number, at least not that I've seen. I'd put my money on this being because he's not going anywhere and will find a way to excuse not leaving if the contract isn't up to expectations.

How often do you put a hard dollar value on something in life? Every reasonable person has wiggle room, add in the fact that QOL stuff can change that would lead to more flex on the dollar amount

[rookiepilot]

I am not in the industry, so who knows how realistic, might be talking out of my hat, but if it was me reading this stuff as a young pilot, I’d pack my bags and live in the ME or Asia for a number of years, where the demand for my skills would be high and paid appropriately to this, come back one day or move to USA with a fat logbook and get a nice DEC job somewhere. Maybe wouldn’t be AC, but gotta be other places?

Or….with enough tenure, eventually maybe able to live in Canada while working for a ME or Asian airline?

Just my outsider $0.02

[MD11]

At Qantas for comparison, they make $130k CAD starting on the 737. Australia has a strikingly similar economy with a relatively small population spread out over long distances. Our dollars are very close in valuation. No reason we can’t reach parity when AC has operating margins higher than all of the US airlines.

Qantas salaries are much higher than that. Jetstar (part of QF group) starting salary is $138K AUD for year 1 F/O (125K CAD) on the A320/1. Right seat on a QF 737 is closer to the 160/170K AUD range and S/O's (relief pilots) at QF pull in 200K+ on the 787 and over 300K on the A380 contract. Skippers on the Super are between 500-700K AUD which is a pretty unachievable position to get anyways.

I totally agree that we have similar economies but Australia has a much higher standard of living and quality of life. That being said, AC pilots need to realize that those numbers should be a bare minimum for this upcoming contract. We are still taxed higher, deal with higher inflation and everything here is expensive for no reason. Not to mention down under you don't tip when you eat out and taxes are included in the prices. Ugh I seriously miss that place.

[Ash Ketchum]

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

Highly doubt this. Will there be some that walk? Sure, but it won't be anywhere near enough for the company to even notice. Everyone that joined in the last 12 years, knew what they were getting when they joined. They're certainly not going to leave when they get a salary bump with the new contract. Mr. Ash has been vocal about definitely leaving if the new contract isn't up to snuff. He has already changed his tune and is now saying he'd, "most likely leave". Conveniently, he has never mentioned his stay/walk number, at least not that I've seen. I'd put my money on this being because he's not going anywhere and will find a way to excuse not leaving if the contract isn't up to expectations.

How often do you put a hard dollar value on something in life? Every reasonable person has wiggle room, add in the fact that QOL stuff can change that would lead to more flex on the dollar amount

My personal target is US legacy pay in Canadian dollars. If we get a WJ + 2% contract no way...

[newlygrounded]

Highly doubt this. Will there be some that walk? Sure, but it won't be anywhere near enough for the company to even notice. Everyone that joined in the last 12 years, knew what they were getting when they joined. They're certainly not going to leave when they get a salary bump with the new contract. Mr. Ash has been vocal about definitely leaving if the new contract isn't up to snuff. He has already changed his tune and is now saying he'd, "most likely leave". Conveniently, he has never mentioned his stay/walk number, at least not that I've seen. I'd put my money on this being because he's not going anywhere and will find a way to excuse not leaving if the contract isn't up to expectations.

How often do you put a hard dollar value on something in life? Every reasonable person has wiggle room, add in the fact that QOL stuff can change that would lead to more flex on the dollar amount

My personal target is US legacy pay in Canadian dollars. If we get a WJ + 2% contract no way...

Unlikely tbh, my view is that the US will subsidize the airlines a lot more in bad times (often with no need to repay) vs the Canadian government. It's a lot easier to pay well when you have the cares act during covid, vs AC having to get loans

[Heavy Rayn]

Where are you going to go? I’m genuinely curious. People say that all the time but very few leave.

I'll go back to corporate. I took the gamble on AC for a schedule, pension, and "job security." Why not grab a seniority number now, because if the contract does turn out to be good there will be a flood of people rushing to AC.

But if the contract doesn't bring starting pay up into 6 digits then the math ain't mathing. Especially when the standard for left seat of a midsize biz jet is now in the realm of 180k/yr.

Interesting. How’s the job security in the corporate world? Working conditions? I’m genuinely curious as I was never exposed to that kind of flying in my career.

Job security is better than most that don’t know about corporate expect. If you’re flying with one of the large management companies and the principal sells their jet it’s almost always possible to slide to a new jet. Very rarely do I hear about guys having a jet sold from under them in general and even more rarely do I hear about those same pilots not getting a new position within the same management company. Schedule on a 3 or 4 pilot jet is pretty good. Two weeks on call, one week off is typical. Still live normally during the two weeks on call, it’s not like being on short reserve. Often flights are booked months in advance. Average corporate pilot is probably around 200-250 hrs a year of flying, some more, some less.

[Tbayer2021]

People at the company love the "you never hear about anyone quitting AC" line.

Well if this contract doesn't turn out to be what's been promised, I think that will officially be dead in the water. I will certainly take my type rating and walk, as will many others.

Highly doubt this. Will there be some that walk? Sure, but it won't be anywhere near enough for the company to even notice. Everyone that joined in the last 12 years, knew what they were getting when they joined. They're certainly not going to leave when they get a salary bump with the new contract. Mr. Ash has been vocal about definitely leaving if the new contract isn't up to snuff. He has already changed his tune and is now saying he'd, "most likely leave". Conveniently, he has never mentioned his stay/walk number, at least not that I've seen. I'd put my money on this being because he's not going anywhere and will find a way to excuse not leaving if the contract isn't up to expectations.

How often do you put a hard dollar value on something in life? Every reasonable person has wiggle room, add in the fact that QOL stuff can change that would lead to more flex on the dollar amount

Wholeheartedly agree with you. Which is why I believe most if not all posters here are just chest pounding with their "I'll leave if..." cries. They'll find a reason to justify why the new contract is good enough to stay even if it doesn't meet their expectations. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up being able to count with one hand, how many end up leaving as a direct result of the contract if it ends up being a dud.

[Tbayer2021]

Highly doubt this. Will there be some that walk? Sure, but it won't be anywhere near enough for the company to even notice. Everyone that joined in the last 12 years, knew what they were getting when they joined. They're certainly not going to leave when they get a salary bump with the new contract. Mr. Ash has been vocal about definitely leaving if the new contract isn't up to snuff. He has already changed his tune and is now saying he'd, "most likely leave". Conveniently, he has never mentioned his stay/walk number, at least not that I've seen. I'd put my money on this being because he's not going anywhere and will find a way to excuse not leaving if the contract isn't up to expectations.

How often do you put a hard dollar value on something in life? Every reasonable person has wiggle room, add in the fact that QOL stuff can change that would lead to more flex on the dollar amount

My personal target is US legacy pay in Canadian dollars. If we get a WJ + 2% contract no way...

Lets for clarifying some numbers. I'll check in with you when the contract drops. For all our sakes, I hope you're right.

[newlygrounded]

Highly doubt this. Will there be some that walk? Sure, but it won't be anywhere near enough for the company to even notice. Everyone that joined in the last 12 years, knew what they were getting when they joined. They're certainly not going to leave when they get a salary bump with the new contract. Mr. Ash has been vocal about definitely leaving if the new contract isn't up to snuff. He has already changed his tune and is now saying he'd, "most likely leave". Conveniently, he has never mentioned his stay/walk number, at least not that I've seen. I'd put my money on this being because he's not going anywhere and will find a way to excuse not leaving if the contract isn't up to expectations.

How often do you put a hard dollar value on something in life? Every reasonable person has wiggle room, add in the fact that QOL stuff can change that would lead to more flex on the dollar amount

Wholeheartedly agree with you. Which is why I believe most if not all posters here are just chest pounding with their "I'll leave if..." cries. They'll find a reason to justify why the new contract is good enough to stay even if it doesn't meet their expectations. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up being able to count with one hand, how many end up leaving as a direct result of the contract if it ends up being a dud.

To get back on my soap box (as someone who would move to the USA tomorrow) It's such a tiny fraction of people who are in the position to move even if green cards were easier to get. the 777 CA has a house, family etc are they going to uproot that to go be a FO till they get their US ATPL (I believe you need a certain number of hours in FAA land and TC hours don't count) then make the seniority/company jump 2 or more times?

If you're unattached, and a move would be easy you're probably a regional FO and they are looking for people with more hours. It's basically people between these groups in my view who would both be desirable down south and in a position where moving wouldn't throw away equity, seniority etc

[cjp]

How often do you put a hard dollar value on something in life? Every reasonable person has wiggle room, add in the fact that QOL stuff can change that would lead to more flex on the dollar amount

Wholeheartedly agree with you. Which is why I believe most if not all posters here are just chest pounding with their "I'll leave if..." cries. They'll find a reason to justify why the new contract is good enough to stay even if it doesn't meet their expectations. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up being able to count with one hand, how many end up leaving as a direct result of the contract if it ends up being a dud.

To get back on my soap box (as someone who would move to the USA tomorrow) It's such a tiny fraction of people who are in the position to move even if green cards were easier to get. the 777 CA has a house, family etc are they going to uproot that to go be a FO till they get their US ATPL (I believe you need a certain number of hours in FAA land and TC hours don't count) then make the seniority/company jump 2 or more times?

If you're unattached, and a move would be easy you're probably a regional FO and they are looking for people with more hours. It's basically people between these groups in my view who would both be desirable down south and in a position where moving wouldn't throw away equity, seniority etc

We can get our FAA ATP's immediately, what we can't get is the 1,000 or so hours in part 121 aircraft here in Canada. They, as far as I understand, do not accept 705 time as equal to their 121.

That said, you could theoretically go into corporate and still make way more than you ever would in Canada - currently. I think the vast majority of private operators, minus the managed garbage, are running 4+ crews, 401Ks fully matched, health insurance, and salaries that would make AC ALPA drool, plus actual vacation....

Imagine that. Anyways - yes, you are correct, no direct left seat at the 121 level = but with bonuses, and Captain pay for advanced FO's in the right seat, you are quite literally exactly where a 20 year Air Canada captain is sitting at 1st and 2nd year on an RJ.

[newlygrounded]

Wholeheartedly agree with you. Which is why I believe most if not all posters here are just chest pounding with their "I'll leave if..." cries. They'll find a reason to justify why the new contract is good enough to stay even if it doesn't meet their expectations. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up being able to count with one hand, how many end up leaving as a direct result of the contract if it ends up being a dud.

To get back on my soap box (as someone who would move to the USA tomorrow) It's such a tiny fraction of people who are in the position to move even if green cards were easier to get. the 777 CA has a house, family etc are they going to uproot that to go be a FO till they get their US ATPL (I believe you need a certain number of hours in FAA land and TC hours don't count) then make the seniority/company jump 2 or more times?

If you're unattached, and a move would be easy you're probably a regional FO and they are looking for people with more hours. It's basically people between these groups in my view who would both be desirable down south and in a position where moving wouldn't throw away equity, seniority etc

We can get our FAA ATP's immediately, what we can't get is the 1,000 or so hours in part 121 aircraft here in Canada. They, as far as I understand, do not accept 705 time as equal to their 121.

That said, you could theoretically go into corporate and still make way more than you ever would in Canada - currently. I think the vast majority of private operators, minus the managed garbage, are running 4+ crews, 401Ks fully matched, health insurance, and salaries that would make AC ALPA drool, plus actual vacation....

Imagine that. Anyways - yes, you are correct, no direct left seat at the 121 level = but with bonuses, and Captain pay for advanced FO's in the right seat, you are quite literally exactly where a 20 year Air Canada captain is sitting at 1st and 2nd year on an RJ.

Thanks! I knew I was missing something, I feel like the top end guys would want to end up at an airline, also will the airlines put pressure to allow Canadians or is alpa strong when it comes to lobbying?

[Me262]

The reason canadians can't work in the US is the reason why canada carriers pay like garbage. They know we have no where else to go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe americans had it a lot easier to get a work visa/PR flying here back when their pay was worse?

[goldeneagle]

The reason canadians can't work in the US is the reason why canada carriers pay like garbage. They know we have no where else to go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe americans had it a lot easier to get a work visa/PR flying here back when their pay was worse?

You would be wrong on this, just like most other things you post.

[Fanblade]

The reason canadians can't work in the US is the reason why canada carriers pay like garbage.

Wrong.

It’s all in our history.

There is only a single legacy airline remaining in Canada unlike the US. The amalgamation of Canadian, CP, Wardair, Nordair, PWA, Easter Provincial left just Air Canada.

-That single legacy airline pre 911 paid similar wages to US carriers.

- Air Canada pilots gave in 2003-04 during CCAA. Unfortunately this restructuring was more about monetization than viability.

- By 2009 Air Canada was back up against the ropes. Air Canada pilots gave again to protect the pension.

- In 2011 government interference and FOS saw the Air Canada pilots give yet again.

- In 2014, for the stability of the company, the Air Canada pilots locked in all these losses for 10 years.

Today Air Canada pilots make a fraction of US wages because their pilots never had a chance to recover from CCAA in 2003. Making it worse there was no other comparable legacy airline in Canada to hold up wages.

Over time airline management in Canada has started declaring our post bankruptcy wages the new normal. The Canadian normal. Some pilots have even bought into it.

It’s not normal. Historically we have always been paid slightly less but similar to our North American peers. It’s only really the last decade that the split has taken place as US pilots started clawing back their post 911 bankruptcy losses and Air Canada pilots did not as they were stuck in a 10 year deal.

It’s now our turn to recover.