Air Canada is Not WestJet

[Tbayer2021]

An observation. None of my friends working at AC, WJ, TS, SW and everywhere else have shared this video on social media. Up until now they always shared everything posted by AC ALPA.

[accountant]

7 x 787s is a lot different than 90 widebodies going to all continents (Antarctica doesn't count) with many more on order

WJ is not a Flag Carrier. Air Canada is. It's apples to oranges

Well, compare AC to Delta and American Airlines. Not apples to apples. US vs Canadian market?!?! ….fleet, taxes, cost of living, fx rate, laws, etc etc.

WJ pilots you are LCC pilots even when comparing 787 vs 787 to Asian…..we are better then you….insert nose lift…..but you better picket with us.

Anyone else get the feeling that justapassenger is accountant under a new alias?

Lol I’ve actually remained quietly recently and just sit back eating popcorn watching you all debate

[GeoffPilot]

You guys are tiring, always thinking that those who disagree with you just don’t understand.
In that video the pilot group also sent an important message, it is that they will never leave: AC management knows as much as everyone that very few pilots could secure a US visa, and those would be so high in the hierarchy that they would have too much to lose leaving AC. Offer and demand will guide the negotiations, not what people think they are worth. Happy world class contract

So you're saying if Air Canada is hiring, then they will offer more but if they aren't then we get paid less?

And you're saying it doesn't matter what people think they are worth? So pilots shouldn't even vote on the deal??

[Timetoflyagain]

Those of you who are triggered by this video because you felt it was an insult to WJ pilots completely missed the point. Maybe watch the video again and leave your emotion out of it, because there's a very important point being made about the way AC management leverages their salaries against US carriers unlike the way they pay their pilots and what comparators they want to use for us.

Seriously, this needs to be clarified? Yikes..

…AC management compares their compensation to US carriers because AC exec management can get a U.S. working visa sponsored by UA, AA, SW etc…their labour market allows for highly educated and or experienced people to cross for work. Doctors, nurses, accountants, and senior executives all can get the magic US visa, so AC, if they want to retain talent, need to be competitive. Pilots are excluded from those easy visas. A Canadian pilot with business degree has an easier time to go work for United in their revenue management department, get the work permit, then residency, then xfer to flt ops. …and who in the US is actively lobbying the US govt to keep foreign, including Canadian, pilots out?

[altiplano]

Don't allow yourselves to bicker and be divided by children and trolls over semantics when so much is at stake. I bet 75% of the people in this thread aren't AC/WJ.

This is about raising the level for us all, breaking past the management definitions of comparables. This is messaging to the general public and government in terms that they can understand to counter upcoming messaging that will be against our efforts and to support goals that will ultimately benefit us all.

AC can afford to pay, and pay they will. Next WJ will be forced to pay, and pay they will.

Whatever it takes. Whatever works. Hurt my feelings, hurt your feelings. I don't care, it's part of the game. We'll all get over it when we start getting paid for real. I'm supporting the direction coming from ALPA, I'm supporting my MEC, and I'm standing with all pilots in this country in lifting this profession and taking back what is ours.

[theacolyte]

Holy shit everyone needs to take a big breath here.

No one at AC that I know thinks a AC pilot is “superior” to a WJ pilot. No one. (Well maybe a few lingering Sr guys but let’s just ignore them ok?)

This video was for the public. It was not for WJ pilots, or AC pilots. This video was to counter the public argument that Air Canada will inevitably make very soon (and are already making internally) that we are only to be compared to Canadian pilots and therefore WJ+1% should be enough. It is not. No matter what anyone here might think, AC is a different operation than WJ and therefore we should be compared with similar operations flying often the SAME PASSENGERS. Does that make us better pilots? No, not at all.

Air Canadas own investor documents clearly state Delta, American, United etc as their executive compensation comparators. And before anyone says “oh they can go work in the USA”… just think about that for a second. Do you really think AC’s CEO is comparable in any way to Ed Bastien or the like? And could go walk into a high paying airline CEO job down into the USA? I certain don’t, but they seem to think they compare. Let them! They get what they demand and justify to the board that signs their paychecks, just like we will.

Delta, United, American all have resumes up the ass and they still ended up with record contracts. BECAUSE THEY DEMANDED IT.

WJ pilots here who are all salty. Do you not want AC pilots to make record rates? Wouldn’t it be phenomenal for Canadian aviation for us to make say $400/hr as 737 Captains? I sure think so, and YOU’LL BE NEXT.

Canadians are so fucking soft.

Everyone here, go take a cold shower.

[Ash Ketchum]

I know everyone is saying that the US is hard to get to for Canadian pilots and from first hand experience (EB-2 visa rejection) I do agree. I wonder what percentage of AC pilots would be willing to go overseas to Asia or the Middle East if this contract doesn't pan out as planned. From my understanding, these regions will happily sponsor qualified Canadian pilots unlike the US.

[Bede]

Don't allow yourselves to bicker and be divided by children and trolls over semantics when so much is at stake. I bet 75% of the people in this thread aren't AC/WJ.

This is about raising the level for us all, breaking past the management definitions of comparables. This is messaging to the general public and government in terms that they can understand to counter upcoming messaging that will be against our efforts and to support goals that will ultimately benefit us all.

AC can afford to pay, and pay they will. Next WJ will be forced to pay, and pay they will.

Exactly. I will continue to wear my red lanyard and AC pilots will continue to be welcome in my JS.

[CPU2000]

Those of you who are triggered by this video because you felt it was an insult to WJ pilots completely missed the point. Maybe watch the video again and leave your emotion out of it, because there's a very important point being made about the way AC management leverages their salaries against US carriers unlike the way they pay their pilots and what comparators they want to use for us.

Seriously, this needs to be clarified? Yikes..

AC management compares their compensation to US carriers because AC exec management can get a U.S. working visa sponsored by UA, AA, SW etc…their labour market allows for highly educated and or experienced people to cross for work. Doctors, nurses, accountants, and senior executives all can get the magic US visa, so AC, if they want to retain talent, need to be competitive. Pilots are excluded from those easy visas. A Canadian pilot with business degree has an easier time to go work for United in their revenue management department, get the work permit, then residency, then xfer to flt ops. …and who in the US is actively lobbying the US govt to keep foreign, including Canadian, pilots out?

Which visa? Like actually name the visa

A H-1B?

They use a lottery for that now and pilots can get it. I know pilots who had them

EB2?

Pilots have gotten those as well

Do pilots now get paid based on US immigration policy??

[C-GGGQ]

Those of you who are triggered by this video because you felt it was an insult to WJ pilots completely missed the point. Maybe watch the video again and leave your emotion out of it, because there's a very important point being made about the way AC management leverages their salaries against US carriers unlike the way they pay their pilots and what comparators they want to use for us.

Seriously, this needs to be clarified? Yikes..

AC management compares their compensation to US carriers because AC exec management can get a U.S. working visa sponsored by UA, AA, SW etc…their labour market allows for highly educated and or experienced people to cross for work. Doctors, nurses, accountants, and senior executives all can get the magic US visa, so AC, if they want to retain talent, need to be competitive. Pilots are excluded from those easy visas. A Canadian pilot with business degree has an easier time to go work for United in their revenue management department, get the work permit, then residency, then xfer to flt ops. …and who in the US is actively lobbying the US govt to keep foreign, including Canadian, pilots out?

Which visa? Like actually name the visa

A H-1B?

They use a lottery for that now and pilots can get it. I know pilots who had them

EB2?

Pilots have gotten those as well

Do pilots now get paid based on US immigration policy??

Eb1c or more usually an L-1 from my understanding.

[phenix]

Do pilots now get paid based on US immigration policy??

Not at all. Unless they compare themselves to US pilots. Then it becomes relevant.
If you work for A but ask to be paid as if you worked for B, it gives you leverage to be able to work for B. Leverage is not everything, but is important.

[Fanblade]

I quoted myself for expediency.

IMO you need to know the history to explain why our wages have been suppressed for so long in Canada and why Air Canada wants to keep us anchored in Canada.

Take the view from 35000.

It starts in 2000 and the merger of all legacy airlines into a single entity. In 2003 that legacy airline entered bankruptcy and there was nothing left to hold the high water mark.

The initial restructuring of AC was a failure. By 2009 the airline once again in crisis. Government intervention and FOS happened as a result.

There is a saying. A rising tide floats all boats. Management has their own version. At low tide throw out the anchor. Anchor them low.

We signed a 10 year deal locking in our CCAA & FOS losses for 10 years. This suppressed the entire industry.

Today both WJ and AC messaging and strategy are the same. Anchor them low. Make post bankruptcy the new normal. A Canadian normal.

Their strategy is an attempt to make post bankruptcy wages permanent and make everyone think that is the Canadian norm.

This is why you will here the ACA MEC make statements like bankruptcy recovery contract. Only legacy airline not to recover after 911. Or point at both US legacy wages AND our pre 911 wages adjusted for inflation to today. They are similar.

The messaging. No this is not the Canadian norm. It’s Air Canada trying to hold on to a post bankruptcy contract 20 years out.

Air Canada pay from 2003, inflation adjusted to today, is very similar to US wages today. Albeit in CAD. This is similar to what wages were like pre 911. Air Canada wages were similar to US wages albeit in different currencies.

WestJet wages today are well below Air Canada wages from 2003, inflation adjusted to today.

See the problem?

Air Canada pilots want their pre bankruptcy wages back which are similar to Delta, United. But Air Canada wants to anchor Air Canada pilots to WJ wages calling it the Canadian Norm.

The Executives can work in the US but pilots can’t is just another argument pushed by management to anchor us in Canada at post bankruptcy lows. It’s all strategy on their part to anchor low. Who cares if we can’t work in the US. Give me my 2003 wages back.

Strategically the ACA MEC is looking to break the ´Canadian anchor’ and differentiate itself from WJ. That’s it.

It’s just strategy. It is saying. That is nice what WJ pays. But we want our pre bankruptcy wages back. Stop the Canadian BS. Our pre bankruptcy wages are not unreasonable. Look at what Air Canada pilots were paid compared to US carriers pre 911. Now look. The usual response is What the %#§¥ happened?

In the mean time AC is saying. Don’t look at history. Only look at WJ.

[phenix]

So the video says: “ we are not WestJet, we deserve to be paid more than them because we are like Delta”, but it actually means “we deserve to be paid more than what we are now because we used to be paid more, and got screwed over. That would put us on par with Delta”.
Good informational video. The message is so clear and well defined that it takes 4 pages of thread to explain that what they wanted to say is not what they said, it is something different but it means the same thing.

Everybody here knows what AC meant in this video, most of us have been here long enough, but the message got lost in the poor wording.

[Dry Guy]

The message was pretty clear to me. Air Canada the company is not WestJet the company.

[altiplano]

Don't allow yourselves to bicker and be divided by children and trolls over semantics when so much is at stake. I bet 75% of the people in this thread aren't AC/WJ.

This is about raising the level for us all, breaking past the management definitions of comparables. This is messaging to the general public and government in terms that they can understand to counter upcoming messaging that will be against our efforts and to support goals that will ultimately benefit us all.

AC can afford to pay, and pay they will. Next WJ will be forced to pay, and pay they will.

Exactly. I will continue to wear my red lanyard and AC pilots will continue to be welcome in my JS.

Right on Bede. And you guys are welcome in my JS too. And ahead of some AC office type at that. Pilots first.

[TPP]

Don't allow yourselves to bicker and be divided by children and trolls over semantics when so much is at stake. I bet 75% of the people in this thread aren't AC/WJ.

This is about raising the level for us all, breaking past the management definitions of comparables. This is messaging to the general public and government in terms that they can understand to counter upcoming messaging that will be against our efforts and to support goals that will ultimately benefit us all.

AC can afford to pay, and pay they will. Next WJ will be forced to pay, and pay they will.

Exactly. I will continue to wear my red lanyard and AC pilots will continue to be welcome in my JS.

Right on Bede. And you guys are welcome in my JS too. And ahead of some AC office type at that. Pilots first.

Same goes for us at Porter. My JS is always available to our AC brothers and sisters.

While we don't have ALPA lanyards.....yet everyone I speak to here is absolutely rooting for ACs ALPA MEC to lift this industry back up to 2003.

No one Canadian pilot discount while executives give themselves 233 percent raises.

[goingnowherefast]

Exactly. I will continue to wear my red lanyard and AC pilots will continue to be welcome in my JS.

Right on Bede. And you guys are welcome in my JS too. And ahead of some AC office type at that. Pilots first.

Same goes for us at Porter. My JS is always available to our AC brothers and sisters.

While we don't have ALPA lanyards.....yet everyone I speak to here is absolutely rooting for ACs ALPA MEC to lift this industry back up to 2003.

No one Canadian pilot discount while executives give themselves 233 percent raises.

I'm starting to see ALPA bag tags on Porter lunch pails.

[Victory]

Careful. I had a manager who was my best friend until rumors started to fly about unionization. Suddenly every conversation revolved about how awful it is to work for a unionized company.

I have no doubt Porter will join ALPA but maybe keep it to yourself until they do.

[justapasenger]

So the video says: “ we are not WestJet, we deserve to be paid more than them because we are like Delta”, but it actually means “we deserve to be paid more than what we are now because we used to be paid more, and got screwed over. That would put us on par with Delta”.
Good informational video. The message is so clear and well defined that it takes 4 pages of thread to explain that what they wanted to say is not what they said, it is something different but it means the same thing.

Everybody here knows what AC meant in this video, most of us have been here long enough, but the message got lost in the poor wording.

Are pilots really this dense they can't figure out a 60 secs clip?

[flying4dollars]

So the video says: “ we are not WestJet, we deserve to be paid more than them because we are like Delta”, but it actually means “we deserve to be paid more than what we are now because we used to be paid more, and got screwed over. That would put us on par with Delta”.
Good informational video. The message is so clear and well defined that it takes 4 pages of thread to explain that what they wanted to say is not what they said, it is something different but it means the same thing.

Everybody here knows what AC meant in this video, most of us have been here long enough, but the message got lost in the poor wording.

Are pilots really this dense they can't figure out a 60 secs clip?

I think the vast majority understood the message just fine. The ones who are on here whining and taking it personally are the ones who clearly couldn't comprehend it.

[khedrei]

Those of you who are triggered by this video because you felt it was an insult to WJ pilots completely missed the point. Maybe watch the video again and leave your emotion out of it, because there's a very important point being made about the way AC management leverages their salaries against US carriers unlike the way they pay their pilots and what comparators they want to use for us.

Seriously, this needs to be clarified? Yikes..

AC management compares their compensation to US carriers because AC exec management can get a U.S. working visa sponsored by UA, AA, SW etc…their labour market allows for highly educated and or experienced people to cross for work. Doctors, nurses, accountants, and senior executives all can get the magic US visa, so AC, if they want to retain talent, need to be competitive. Pilots are excluded from those easy visas. A Canadian pilot with business degree has an easier time to go work for United in their revenue management department, get the work permit, then residency, then xfer to flt ops. …and who in the US is actively lobbying the US govt to keep foreign, including Canadian, pilots out?

Which visa? Like actually name the visa

A H-1B?

They use a lottery for that now and pilots can get it. I know pilots who had them

EB2?

Pilots have gotten those as well

Do pilots now get paid based on US immigration policy??

Last I checked, the US lottery is currently closed to Canadians. If im wrong, send me a link so I can enter.

[rudder]

AC management compares their compensation to US carriers because AC exec management can get a U.S. working visa sponsored by UA, AA, SW etc…their labour market allows for highly educated and or experienced people to cross for work. Doctors, nurses, accountants, and senior executives all can get the magic US visa, so AC, if they want to retain talent, need to be competitive. Pilots are excluded from those easy visas. A Canadian pilot with business degree has an easier time to go work for United in their revenue management department, get the work permit, then residency, then xfer to flt ops. …and who in the US is actively lobbying the US govt to keep foreign, including Canadian, pilots out?

Which visa? Like actually name the visa

A H-1B?

They use a lottery for that now and pilots can get it. I know pilots who had them

EB2?

Pilots have gotten those as well

Do pilots now get paid based on US immigration policy??

Last I checked, the US lottery is currently closed to Canadians. If im wrong, send me a link so I can enter.

The lottery you are referring to is NP5. It is closed to Canadians.

[JBI]

WJ pilot here - I fully support the idea that AC's comparable should be US Carriers. You 100% know that management will start pulling the "AC pilots are already the highest paid in Canada" rhetoric when things get down to the line. Hindsight being 20/20 the wording could have been slightly better, but no WJ pilot should be getting their nose out of joint from this. I sat in an AC jumpseat earlier this week and not only was the conversation extremely cordial, we all understood how it was much easier for AC to use US legacies as comparators than WJ. But, during the next round of negotiations, WJ will be using AC's new rates as comparators.

As for the US Visas, a couple small corrections from the posts above.

The NAFTA "TN" Visa is a nonimmigrant (means it does NOT lead to a Green Card) which lets certain professionals outlined in the link below who have a pre-arranged job in a field DIRECTLY related to their degree/education into the United States for a period of up to 3 years. So for example, if you had a law degree and are applying for a TN Visa, it has to be a law related job. You could not get a job with Delta as an in-house lawyer and then switch to the flight ops department and become a pilot.

https://rjimmigrationlaw.com/practice-a ... ions-list/

The L-1(A or B) Visa is called an "inter-company transferee" visa. Basically, if you work for a company in Canada that has a sister company in the US, you can be transferred to the US. Now, what IS helpful and can be used by pilots is an L-2 Visa, which is a spousal Visa of an inter-company transferee. You can make a further application for an Employment Authorization Document and then work in the US, but ONLY while you and your spouse are married and they are still working at the employer that sponsored them ... so don't get divorced!

[theacolyte]

Now, what IS helpful and can be used by pilots is an L-2 Visa, which is a spousal Visa of an inter-company transferee. You can make a further application for an Employment Authorization Document and then work in the US, but ONLY while you and your spouse are married and they are still working at the employer that sponsored them ... so don't get divorced!

I personally know two pilots who left AC within the last 12 months on an L-2 visa. They said it was a risk, but one they were willing to take. Both moved to the USA and bought their first homes are are starting families. A lot more than can be said for a lot of Canadians.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

That's a great option. Thanks very much for letting me know.