To all debt collectors

niss · Post by **niss** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:36 am

I have had companies screw me too. I have been taken to collection for money I refused to pay because of services not proveded. I payed in the end but just to save my credit rating.

I dont think what Ludacris is doing is right, but now that he is doing it, good for him. Worst case scenario he accepts his uppams like a man, best case scenario the companies write it off and he emerges the first warior victorious against the machine.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:54 am

niss wrote:I have had companies screw me too. I have been taken to collection for money I refused to pay because of services not proveded. I payed in the end but just to save my credit rating.

I dont think what Ludacris is doing is right, but now that he is doing it, good for him. Worst case scenario he accepts his uppams like a man, best case scenario the companies write it off and he emerges the first warior victorious against the machine.

Typical foreigner

JBI · Post by **JBI** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:04 pm

richardhead · Post by **richardhead** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:15 pm

I say we find out which institution he owes money to. Then we all chip in and buy his debt for say 10 or 20 cents on the dollar. Then we become the collectors. We can turn it into a reality show. Catch Fraud Boy. Or, Good Pilot's Gone Bad.

Axial Flow · Post by **Axial Flow** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:51 pm

Dick, I could not agree more

Ludachris wrote:

I'm curious to hear stories of how others handled the cost of getting their life back together after a layoff or bankruptcy.

I got job and paid for things.

Deciding to give up and go overseas to do something else and put all your blame on someone else for your debt is your problem. I can't see how you can project that on to someone else as it being their fault and then screwing over a third party.

JBI thanks for the legal scope of things but this can be filed under being accountable for your own actions and reacting to adversity like a 2 year old that doesn't get its way.

Just my two cents of course, put that on your VISA bill.

Ludacris · Post by **Ludacris** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:46 pm

Niss, thanks for your comments. And to think I almost commented on your new flying pants! You've got more balls than anyone on here.

Jimmy Mack, please at least read through the thread before posting, or maybe reading and understanding the arguments presented takes more balls than you have. I’ve responded to your friend loaning money scenario many times already.

JBI, thanks for the legal insight and advice. When I need a lawyer to help with my fight against the system I’m coming to you!

Snaproll20 and JBI have touched on Transport. JBI said, “One of the areas that troubles you as well as me is the fact that Transport Canada was able to shut down Skyward without really saying what all the problems were. That is disturbing to me and I think most people.”

Snaproll, I have no idea what really went on as I was told all the information regarding the audit is confidential. But I will say this – I wasn’t in aviation for very long but I heard tons of horror stories and I’m sure everyone else has about how other northern airlines are operated right across the country, but they are still allowed to operate. Although Skyward had its problems, it’s my intuition that something else was going on behind the scenes during the audit as well.

My solution to this problem is making the company safety audits public information. The accident investigation division does an excellent job and then publishes their final report when they’re finished. The enforcement division makes fines against both companies and pilots and the reasons public information. Even the airplane registration database is public information. Why do safety audits have to be so confidential?

Having the safety audit department make their reports public would solve many problems. Most importantly, there would now be transparency in the system and legal precedent set. This would stop an auditor on a power trip or on a personal vendetta (ie. Cat Driver’s situation). With legal precedent set for safety audits, Transport would now have to clearly interpret their rules and apply them fairly right across the country. People on here have been complaining about that for as long as I’ve been reading this board. For example, if precedent was established that company abc is allowed to do something, then there’s no way company xyz could get shutdown for it.

Axial Flow - you've had it out for me for a long time and I'm not even going to waste my time responding to you.

pilotinthenorth · Post by **pilotinthenorth** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:20 pm

do you realize a single company going bankrupt cost the Royal Bank $651,000,000 Cnd! Yes, that’s 651 million dollars by a single company, and that doesn’t even include all the other business bankruptcies. Tell me, how do those losses affect your stocks and your parent’s jobs? But did you have the nerve to come on this forum and lash out at the Enron executives? No way, but yet you come on her and lash out at me – a single individual who was screwed by one of those owners!

Yes I do realize it and that fraud cost the stock to go down big time. and yes, you are just a tiny small part compare to that. But if 100 people like you just run away on 30g, that's 3mils. Things add up..... By not repaying debts, regardless of the amount, you are lowering the banks’ income – or precisely, lowering the investors’ assets. Banks do set aside money for bad debt called the “doubtful allowance”. You are right; it’s cost of operating a business. Its sole purpose is to realize the lost on financial statements from jackass like you who won’t honor the agreements. I am just sad to see you are one of them.

Most of the collection companies make about 50 percents on collected debts. Let assume you owe 20g, that's $10000 in commission if they can get the money off you. Let say the collection company pays a "Customer Service Rep" $8/hour and each phone call takes them 3 minutes. They can make 25,000 phone calls and still not lose money. Let say they give up half way. That's still 12,500 phone calls that they can make, or one call a day for the next 34 years bugging your friends and family. If they are smart, they will call you once every other day, then they can bug your family for 68 years!!!
I hope your family enjoys all those collection calls

Ohh.. by the way, I really like your idea that you automatically entitled some free money if the company is making LOTS of money... Petro Canada made $1.48 billion dollars NET INCOME in year 2005. Next time, I should just pump the gas and run. And if I get caught by a cop, I will just tell them that Petro has set aside millions of dollars of bad debt and I should use them. Also, since Petro is just an entity, just a name on paper, no person will be affected by this.

buss · Post by **buss** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:01 pm

Skipping on money owed is not recommended. Enough said.

However, I haven't paid my TC 55$ fee since inception. I figured what the hell they take it off my tax return. Well guess what no charge no threats.
Anyone else relate?

Ludacris · Post by **Ludacris** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:11 pm

Pilotinthenorth, I'm not saying what I'm doing is right or using the bank's profit to justify what I'm doing. Like I said before, I'm not perfect and I'm the first person to admit it.

You're right, the fact that a corporation is making lots of money does not entitle me to some free money. Using that example I'm showing that what I've chosen to do is not affecting any individuals. Yes, of course it's still wrong and I have my reasons for my choices which have already been detailed, but don't accuse me of taking money from someone, only a corporation which you said yourself is only a legal entity.

Responding to your pumping gas example, yes taking the gas will not affect any individuals because Petro-Can is a major corporation. Does that make it right - no way. But, that person who runs from the pump also has to be willing to stand up and take the consequences like a man - such as getting caught by the police, having a criminal record, or going to jail.

I'm not saying what I'm doing is right, all I'm saying is I'm not affecting any individuals by what I'm doing, and I'm willing to stand up and accept the consequences of a bad credit rating.

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:09 am

It's tempting to just leave this thread alone, but I keep being drawn back... It's not just text on a screen after all... you're human. ...could have been my neighbor, brother, friend...

It's as though you're posting all this here looking for approval, or something to make you feel better about doing what you know to be wrong. That won't likely happen.

You say the hypothetical gas thief should "stand up and face the consequences", yet you did no such thing... you left the country... ran away from your misdeeds.

It's not like we can't sympathise with you for what happened when your former employer screwed you over... we can. Heck not only are there several similar stories all over this place, but there are even some of your own former colleagues here with the exact same story... only they seem to have handled it quite differently.

What you've done is wrong. Simple as that, and you know it. You've said as much. So now you either make it right, or you live with it. If you keep seeking out people who'll tell you it was ok to do as you've done, I'd guess you'll probably find yourself somewhat uncomfortable with the company you're keeping.

Ludacris, my advice to you, as crass as it sounds, (as they say at the poker table)... Either pay up, or shut up.

WTF man, you could take 10 years to pay... that wouldn't be hard! Set aside fifty or a hundred bucks a month or something ... what would that hurt?... but consider the self respect you'd gain! You're obviously not cool with what's happened, otherwise you wouldn't see any need for a man to "face the consequences"... so why not correct it?

When you're drawing your last breaths at the end of your life, you'll thank yourself for doing what was right... because at that moment, all you have left is your integrity....
Or... as the Duke put it (bless his soul) "Honor is a man's gift to himself"

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:05 am

I'd like to know what happened to the owners of Skyward. I worked there for a while too but have been out of touch (1998). There is no doubt the way they operated that this result is the proper one.

As for ripping of the Credit Card company... they are a third party and not responsible for your life. You have ripped them off, sleep well.

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:19 am

Ludacris, you keep going back to statements about how you will stand up and accept the consequences of what you are doing as though you think this somehow is a show of integrity or honour. The problem here is that you aren't willing to stand up and take responsibility. You are infact running away, hiding, and leaving others to take on your responsibilities. Your actions are not honourable and you are seriously lacking integrity; you are lowering yourself to the level of a common thief.

You have left individual bank shareholders to pay your debts although they had nothing to do with your loss of employement. You have left your family and friends to field the phone calls from debt collectors although they didn't cause your problems. You are a dishonest coward.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:44 am

Wilbur wrote:Ludacris, you keep going back to statements about how you will stand up and accept the consequences of what you are doing as though you think this somehow is a show of integrity or honour. The problem here is that you aren't willing to stand up and take responsibility. You are infact running away, hiding, and leaving others to take on your responsibilities. Your actions are not honourable and you are seriously lacking integrity; you are lowering yourself to the level of a common thief.

You have left individual bank shareholders to pay your debts although they had nothing to do with your loss of employement. You have left your family and friends to field the phone calls from debt collectors although they didn't cause your problems. You are a dishonest coward.

That pretty much sums it up I'd say.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:05 pm

do any operators out there do credit checks on pilots before they hire them? I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea.

arf · Post by **arf** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:50 pm

Your logic is flawed, as others have pointed out. Yes, big corporations screw us out of our money, but the answer is not to evade our responsibilities. Ultimately, you gain nothing by taking the stand you are taking: you only hurt yourself in the long run.

The easiest route out is to get a credit counsellor involved who will negotiate a settlement with your creditors. You will be out 10/20 cents on the dollar you owe and all your debts will be cleared. You would still have some satisfaction in knowing that you did not pay out all that you owed (by a long shot) to companies that you think took advantage of you/or deserve to lose the money they lent you.

Ultimately, we are still looking at an issue of personal integrity: to steal something from ANYONE is wrong, regardless of who it is. That is what is getting people heated up here more than anything.

Ludacris · Post by **Ludacris** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:38 pm

Arf, besides JBI's response (which I consider to be the most intelligent and well written response I've ever read on this forum in the past 10 years), your response really has made me think.

Your suggestion of a compromise with the creditors that would allow them to have some of the money paid back while still leaving me with some satisfaction after getting screwed out the money in the first place sounds like a good idea which I will look into. Thank you.

As for your comment, "Ultimately, we are still looking at an issue of personal integrity: to steal something from ANYONE is wrong, regardless of who it is. That is what is getting people heated up here more than anything." To all those people who are getting heated up - have you ever downloaded an mp3?

Also, no one has responded yet to my idea of making the safety audits public information. This would create transparency, accountablity, and set precedents throughout the country regarding how airlines are audited. This would benefit everyone in aviation.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:54 pm

Ludacris:

Glad to see you are thinking about all the good advice so freely given here and may finally get yourself sorted out.

But for christ sake please do not forget the best advice you got here....

" Having balls would be to meet with the person whom you feel has screwed you and convincing him to pay you back, to do that you need to have his balls in your hands and squeeze as hard as necessary to get what you feel is justly yours. "

Don't forget to get pictures to show us!

CD · Post by CD » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:06 pm

Ludacris wrote:Also, no one has responded yet to my idea of making the safety audits public information. This would create transparency, accountablity, and set precedents throughout the country regarding how airlines are audited. This would benefit everyone in aviation.

Not a bad idea... although there are other folks out there with the same idea and that have been trying to get the same thing for a while:

Candidates should push for less secrecy over safety in the skies
Players seek ways to protect secrecy in post-Federal Accontability Act world
The truth is out there! (But you have to be a bit of a bastard to find it.)
MEDIA

niss · Post by **niss** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:58 pm

Leaving the country IMO is just another loophole. Just like any corperations can use loopholes to @#$! you you can do the same thing (assuming you find it).

Bankrupcy is a loophole to. You can wrack up all sorts of debt you got from other people and bankrupt the bitch. But people dont look down upon you the same way everyone is looking at Ludacris.

By escaping the country he managed to be farther than the collectors are willing to go to collect.

Why should he be all hot and horny to volountarily pay someone when they arent even willing to come get it?

I personally wouldnt have put my self in that situation but now that he is, what can you do?

arf · Post by **arf** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:43 pm

Ludacris wrote: Your suggestion of a compromise with the creditors that would allow them to have some of the money paid back while still leaving me with some satisfaction after getting screwed out the money in the first place sounds like a good idea which I will look into. Thank you.

Whatever your frustration, part of what you need to be sure of for yourself is that your protect yourself in the long run: is it possible that you will want to return to Canada down the road (or even is it possible that your will have to if your employment changes--all sorts of things happen in life, right?) and will it be useful for you to have a clean slate when/if you do?

Ludacris wrote:To all those people who are getting heated up - have you ever downloaded an mp3?

It is easy to be preachy in a venue like this, but at least I know in my case that I don't download or trade music, shoplift, or not pay my debts, etc. I wouldn't say I am perfect by any stretch ethics-wise (!) but I do in this case practice what I preach. What I wanted to point out, and I think you see what I was getting at, is that it seems like you are acting in anger about one thing (being misstreated in your job--very legitimate to be angry over that) but taking it out elsewhere (the debtors). I, too, have suffered at the hands of bad employers and ended up in debt: I am still working that off six years into a good job that is secure long term. My anger is still directed at the two bad employers, however.

Your last point I really don't know anything about, but it makes sense to me that transparency in the industry is a good thing. That is a good fight.

Good luck.