ACPA-ALPA meeting

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:08 am

prop2jet wrote:I agree, no other operator will come in and take away business from Jazz overnight, however, it can go to tender with an allocation of sufficient time in which to set up the infrastructure. Again, you only need look south of the border to see what has happened. Never say never!

The term of the CPA between AC and Jazz is fairly clear and is contained in the Jazz prospectus, available on SEDAR. It is 10 years with two further 5 year renewals. Any debate on a 'tender' is moot until 2016.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:14 pm

So new rumor...Apparently talks are going well. Was mentioned that the EMJ will be the bridge between the two companies, with date of hire governing. Meaning if your a 10 year jazzer and you can bid onto the EMJ holding your 10 years seniority. if you want to jump up to the 320, then it's BOTL with no seniority carryover. All future layoffs would be wholey taken at the Jazz end...

Sounds alittle far fetched, but it's a fun one to spread.

bowling · Post by **bowling** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:37 pm

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:06 pm

Beech18s wrote:I heard Jazz MEC already has payscales drawn up for the EMBs to present to the company before 2009 should GS not be implemented by then. And that should GS work, Jazz pilots would fly EMBs on ACPA contract, the fence being the A320. Possible type freezes for a number of years and then eventually fences removed. Anybody?

I'm sure you are correct, however, hell will freeze over before Mainline will give up the EMB. I'm sure the Jazz MEC has payscales on the 320 and the 767.

Jazz shot themselves in the foot by lowering the wages on the RJ, just to stick it to Mainline.

LANDGREEN · Post by **LANDGREEN** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:10 pm

KAG wrote:So new rumor...Apparently talks are going well. Was mentioned that the EMJ will be the bridge between the two companies, with date of hire governing. Meaning if your a 10 year jazzer and you can bid onto the EMJ holding your 10 years seniority. if you want to jump up to the 320, then it's BOTL with no seniority carryover. All future layoffs would be wholey taken at the Jazz end...

Sounds alittle far fetched, but it's a fun one to spread.

REALLY??? I better quit before I get forced out of the bottom by the Jazz guys!!! Some of you guys will believe anything LOL!!!

RussD · Post by **RussD** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:19 pm

KAG wrote:So new rumor...Apparently talks are going well. Was mentioned that the EMJ will be the bridge between the two companies, with date of hire governing. Meaning if your a 10 year jazzer and you can bid onto the EMJ holding your 10 years seniority. if you want to jump up to the 320, then it's BOTL with no seniority carryover. All future layoffs would be wholey taken at the Jazz end...

.

What a perfectly elegent solution to a generation long war. A permanent fence for the current Jazz pilots with a narrow and defined seniority application. In a matter of years the sun will set on the fence as the current Jazz pilots ride off into that sunset. Future generations united and untainted by the war. Perfect,,, Brilliant.

socrates · Post by **socrates** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:12 pm

Hey KAG I heard the same thing, to bad the AC guys think they will have the embraers forever so they will never agree to it.

Ahh well I guess we will just end up with them in 2009 and guys at Jazz will be able to get upgraded with 1 year seniority instead of the guys at AC getting an upgrade in one year.

The company played the cards just right get a judge to award the embraers to AC so it looks like they had nothing to do with it, use them as a barganning tool to keep the unions from joining forces then send them to jazz in 2009 and then everyone loses.

bowling · Post by **bowling** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:28 pm

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:32 pm

Who says the Jazz pilots want to fly the Embryo anyway??? ... I think i'd prefer to see more 705's, they are a better aircraft. (Its also nice to support your own country)

Also .... I don't know why a "legacy carrier" such as Air Canada would want to fly a Regional aircraft anyway, isn't that a bit below there "standard". I don't see United, American, Northwest, Continental, Delta flying aircraft that use the letters "RJ" in the name.

In regards to "G.S" ... Jazz pilots aren't trying to steal AC jobs ... don't mix your own brand of Kool-aid. We (AC and Jazz) are just trying to exist, and if we continue to butt heads and refuse to listen we're only going to destroy ourselves. Nobody is going anywhere fast so we better learn to get along.

The other thing is, a fair amount of people on here spouting off all bitter about this, haven't worked long enough at either company to hold such a grudge. So lets not pick-up where our predecessors left off .......

My humble opinion ....

Loc

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:57 pm

ACPA has made it abundantly clear, in its last newsletter on GS, that they will not entertain any solution that would adversely effect even the most junior mainline pilot.

ANY was in capital letters.

Jazz was spun off as a separate company under ACE. It is well known that ACE will likely cease to exist within a short while. I have never heard of two completely separate companies having a single seniority list. Have you?

F-16 · Post by **F-16** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:10 am

The Emb is a mainline aircraft....

190 being heavier/faster, etc. than the DC-9 and is just like the gold ol' 737-200.

Look at US Airways, Delta - Mainline for 190/195. It can seat up to 120 or something depending on config. When you throw in LOT, Alitalia, Finnair, etc. the 170/175/190/195 are all mainline.

The 705 might be a nice one to fly, but for pax it's not even close to being as comfortable as the Emb. Perhaps if Bombardier had made the BRX/C-series, Air Canada could've gone for that to stay Canadian, but Bombardier really dropped the ball on it.

Loc - I know I'm was never great at English, but I can't figure out where the "R" is in EMJ...

With the arctic ice melting even faster than expected, perhaps this stuff won't matter in a few years unless we modify these things to be used as some wicked boats or hydrofoils.

Cheers.

skyhigh · Post by **skyhigh** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:49 am

Hey F-16, we spoke about this before, and I do agree with you that the EMJs are Mainline A/C. I had a discussion with someone at work about this the other day and he pointed out a few Major Airlines that choose to use them in their Regional divisions....namely

Delta (Shuttle America)
US Airways (Republic Airlines)
Air France (Regional Airlines)
United ( Shuttle America)
Alitalia (Alitalia Express)

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:27 am

Sorry guys (specially ACPA) By judging some of the attitudes I am reading on this topic. I don't think that GS will work at all or even happen.

I though this whole issue was to benefit both and groups not benefit one at the expense of the other.

Everytime someone mentions flowthrough to mainline, Jazz to get EMBs, seniority, All the AC types put up the red flags and shout "that will never happen, etc, etc.

I don't see how BOTL for Jazz is going to benefit Jazz pilots, Sounds like just a buffer for ACPA to have in case of layoffs, and to control what we can and can't fly.( I hope I am wrong when I say this)

I am obviously missing something here. or have no clue about this as I have heard 1000 different rumors. I am curious what are we trying to accomplish exactly by having GS. What is everyone at both groups hoping for.

For myseff (I am at Jazz) Overall better job conditions including salary and the like. For both groups.

My apologies if I offended anyone by my post, feel free to to set the record straight.

Cheers DH.

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:30 am

Brick Head wrote:ACPA has made it abundantly clear, in its last newsletter on GS, that they will not entertain any solution that would adversely effect even the most junior mainline pilot.

Okay. What is ALPA's position on the most junior Jazz pilot. Or even the most senior ones who went through CCAA.

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:31 pm

DH,

When I read through this entire thread I never got the same perception of attitude from our members. ACPA has made it clear on this topic, that seniority is and will always be important to it's members. Before we even meet at the table, both sides know where each other stand. Your memberships committee understands the methods of integration that the two parties could construct a list and I'll repeat they fully understand that DOH is and never will be part of these talks. A ratio based merger would leave the bottom half of the Jazz list exposed in the event of a downturn. Remember when you base integration on a ratio based formula, fences usually do not apply so any layoff protection would result in the majority coming from Jazz. Your membership is wise to that and have during the last round of talks on GS and I believe even now with your IRC committee feel that a BOTL agreement with protective fences that will allow layoffs to happen from each respective "silo" based on company need.

So if I look at some of the other opinions like Jazz getting all the EMB's. So what then happens to 600+ mainline pilots that are flying these aircraft? Sure attrition/ retirements will take care of those pilots . So we just walk away from all those positions and let our list stagnate for at least 5-7 years? Contrary to what you heard there are pilots that want to fly those aircraft.

I have always supported some form of talks on this subject and usually just skip over the "out to lunch" posts and just think realistic expectations.

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:50 pm

socrates wrote:Hey KAG I heard the same thing, to bad the AC guys think they will have the embraers forever so they will never agree to it.

Ahh well I guess we will just end up with them in 2009 and guys at Jazz will be able to get upgraded with 1 year seniority instead of the guys at AC getting an upgrade in one year.

The company played the cards just right get a judge to award the embraers to AC so it looks like they had nothing to do with it, use them as a barganning tool to keep the unions from joining forces then send them to jazz in 2009 and then everyone loses.

It's attitudes like this that will result in you guys winning the race to the bottom.

Didn't take you long to get brainwashed by the garbage the bitter senior members of your union spew.

The day I sit right seat to YOU on an AIR CANADA plane is the day I slit my wrists.

Why can't you guys who go to Jazz be happy you are there. No one forced you to go there. If you wanted to fly for mainline, then maybe you shouldn't have gone to Jazz.

But please, continue telling me about how the Jazz guys are going to @#$! the mainline guys in 2009 by stealing their airplanes.

Because that's a really positive thing for the whole industry.

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:20 pm

Thrust set

Thanks for the reply. Like I said, there is quite a bit of rumors and perceptions form everybody (duh), including some form this forum. Sometimes it is tough to distingusih of what is ligit and Bs, some of it is obvious however, some of it you never know.

Again, as far as seniortiy, a/c, etc goes , I will go through all the proper hoops to become an ACPA menber just like everyone else had to when my turn comes up. Mind you I am not too optomistic considering our track record with the interviews, anyways that is another subject on its own.

I just hope that we can come up with an agreement that will look after both groups best interests. The protective fence makes sense to me.

Cheers

The Hammer · Post by **The Hammer** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:27 pm

Disco Stu wrote:
socrates wrote:Hey KAG I heard the same thing, to bad the AC guys think they will have the embraers forever so they will never agree to it.

Ahh well I guess we will just end up with them in 2009 and guys at Jazz will be able to get upgraded with 1 year seniority instead of the guys at AC getting an upgrade in one year.

The company played the cards just right get a judge to award the embraers to AC so it looks like they had nothing to do with it, use them as a barganning tool to keep the unions from joining forces then send them to jazz in 2009 and then everyone loses.
It's attitudes like this that will result in you guys winning the race to the bottom.

Didn't take you long to get brainwashed by the garbage the bitter senior members of your union spew.

The day I sit right seat to YOU on an AIR CANADA plane is the day I slit my wrists.

Why can't you guys who go to Jazz be happy you are there. No one forced you to go there. If you wanted to fly for mainline, then maybe you shouldn't have gone to Jazz.

But please, continue telling me about how the Jazz guys are going to @#$! the mainline guys in 2009 by stealing their airplanes.

Because that's a really positive thing for the whole industry.

Disco Stu
We'd like to work at AC mainline but unfortunately I just can't get over the gag reflex
PS Looks like you were the thread holding together the seams of that former airline of yours. Glad to see nothing has changed. Management playing games, and playing favourites, to fill their pockets. Were you part of the "Team" ???

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:02 pm

The Hammer wrote:
Disco Stu wrote:
socrates wrote:Hey KAG I heard the same thing, to bad the AC guys think they will have the embraers forever so they will never agree to it.

Ahh well I guess we will just end up with them in 2009 and guys at Jazz will be able to get upgraded with 1 year seniority instead of the guys at AC getting an upgrade in one year.

The company played the cards just right get a judge to award the embraers to AC so it looks like they had nothing to do with it, use them as a barganning tool to keep the unions from joining forces then send them to jazz in 2009 and then everyone loses.
It's attitudes like this that will result in you guys winning the race to the bottom.

Didn't take you long to get brainwashed by the garbage the bitter senior members of your union spew.

The day I sit right seat to YOU on an AIR CANADA plane is the day I slit my wrists.

Why can't you guys who go to Jazz be happy you are there. No one forced you to go there. If you wanted to fly for mainline, then maybe you shouldn't have gone to Jazz.

But please, continue telling me about how the Jazz guys are going to @#$! the mainline guys in 2009 by stealing their airplanes.

Because that's a really positive thing for the whole industry.
Disco Stu
We'd like to work at AC mainline but unfortunately I just can't get over the gag reflex
PS Looks like you were the thread holding together the seams of that former airline of yours. Glad to see nothing has changed. Management playing games, and playing favourites, to fill their pockets. Were you part of the "Team" ???

Try humming, I hear it stops the gagging.

As far as PAG goes, not sure what you meant by me being a member of the Team? Do you mean the CPA exec? Or Management? It's a great place to work, I feel bad for both sides of the table there right now.

socrates · Post by **socrates** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:54 pm

[quote][/quote]

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:56 pm

This topic is pointless to continue .... both sides are trying to force the other to believe their hammer is bigger than the other guy.

F-16 .... Sorry but the EMB-190 is a REGIONAL aircraft .... if you'd like to confirm it go to google and search it before trying to sound like your the man about the topic.

Embraer 190 Regional Jet:
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/pro ... braer_190/

Disco .... sort of disappointing to hear you speak like that. You've been at AC for what? 4 months? .... online for maybe 1?

Either way ... I don't care because I enjoy my job and thats all that matters. If the seniority list become one ... great .... if not .... great.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:31 pm

Well said Loc.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:39 pm

Disco Stu wrote:
socrates wrote:Hey KAG I heard the same thing, to bad the AC guys think they will have the embraers forever so they will never agree to it.

Ahh well I guess we will just end up with them in 2009 and guys at Jazz will be able to get upgraded with 1 year seniority instead of the guys at AC getting an upgrade in one year.

The company played the cards just right get a judge to award the embraers to AC so it looks like they had nothing to do with it, use them as a barganning tool to keep the unions from joining forces then send them to jazz in 2009 and then everyone loses.

Why can't you guys who go to Jazz be happy you are there. No one forced you to go there. If you wanted to fly for mainline, then maybe you shouldn't have gone to Jazz.

.

Do you know how many guys (myself included) wished they had of waited? I dare say most of the new hires. I sure as hell didn’t know that AC was going to hire from Borek, especially since about 2 people in anyone’s memory had actually gone straight from Borek to mainline (not a great percentage). A lot of guys were under that impression from many companies. A lot of guys are wishing they had of waited. Why did we go to Jazz? Because they called first. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, and everyone I talked to said basically that – take who ever comes first.

I my case, I stressed over that decision for 3 months (delaying Jazz) trying to decide what was best for my career. Take Jazz (and a guaranteed mainline interview) or wait it out and hope that I make the 3rd person to go to mainline from Borek. I’m not much of a gambling man (a good one anyway) especially when it comes to decisions like these, so I went the safe route, as did a lot of my peers.
As it turned out I probably would have been called by now. DOH!!!

I just thought I’d point out the decision making in why some of us went to Jazz and are now alittle sore about it…wouldn’t you be?

PS...As a side note, for me going to Jazz just might have been a better move then I thought cause hopefully it's going to lead to WJ.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:48 pm

Do you know how many guys (myself included) wished they had of waited?

Kag.
I'm confused. You would be happier at WJ. Right? Things will work out just fine. You will love being a happy owner and hey, it's a Boeing, right? Ok, maybe not a 777, 767 or a 787, but the important thing is to be happy. I bet the rest of the Jazz guys going to the mainline wish they made the same decision as you. Right. Go easy on us when you get on with WJ. We already know how happy you'll be and how much money you'll make and that it's a new world out there and WJ's margins are the best in the world, and oh how about that new partnership with the best airlines in the world.... and we'll all be envious and wishing to be you....
Buddy, truth is, you're not even there yet and you've already tired us out... you'll fit right in!! Congrats!!(?)

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:59 pm

Localizer wrote:Disco .... sort of disappointing to hear you speak like that. You've been at AC for what? 4 months? .... online for maybe 1?.

To hear me speak like what? To get pissed off when my friends who are new hires at Jazz start towing the line that Jazz will take the EMJs for lower wages? That guys can feel a sense of pride thinking that they will undercut their brethren? Yeah! Stick it to those guys! Awesome!

I won't apologize for getting pissed at that. It's small minded and ignorant.

It makes no fucking difference how long I have been employed at AC! Attitudes like that will bring NOTHING but HARM to this industry.

Like I said before, the race to the bottom has to stop. But if new hires at Jazz are running around after 4 months talking about how great it is going to be when Jazz gets the EMJs in 2009, what hope is there for a Global Solution?

I've got lots of friends at Jazz, Loc. All good people. I have no hate on for Jazz or ALPA or CDN or any of that past life stuff. I said nothing derogatory about Jazz or about their pilots (the comments with the smilies afterwards are tongue in cheek directed at a freind who posted the initial inflamatory post). And I am not going to sit here and spout AC/ACPA rah-rah either. I am lucky to be where I am and count my blessings everyday. No one knows it more than I.

But I will get pissed about comments like the above. They don't help anybody.

ACPA-ALPA meeting

Ack