Hey Jazz...

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chipmunk
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Post by chipmunk »

Anonymous1 wrote:This sense of entitlement is the number one reason why you and others like you will never be called.
How can Jazz "assume" this from just the Workopolis application???? You can't tell someone's personality and attitude from those measly 20 or so questions - which judge your EXPERIENCE!

Up until now, it's EXPERIENCE that plays a huge part in getting interviews. Frustrating that someone with 250 hours will get one before someone with a "mere" 4500...

Never was ever sure if I wanted to do the airline thing, and this may help my decision...
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Post by RFN »

Anonymous 1 quote: "You think you're entitled to an interview before a new grad simply because of your background and experience."
Yup, that's pretty much it. Youthful vigour, marks in school, fantastic attitude etc. never amounted to a hill of beans before, nor should it.

Tonight I brought back my airplane with the toilet leaking all over the place (at 2100hrs). The two groomers at my company have to clean it up (it froze) and groom my airplane and groom about 7 other ones as well. They also have to dispatch MedEvac all night. If they can go straight to Jazz before the Captains who's planes they are grooming, then why the hell should they bother?

This is how to cheapen our profession. It doesn't take years of experience to earn a spot flying an RJ or Dash 8, therefore it will now be paid accordingly.
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North Shore
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Post by North Shore »

.edited
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Last edited by North Shore on Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by stratcat »

well said north shore
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Post by fougner »

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Last edited by fougner on Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by complexintentions »

Anonymous1 wrote:
North Shore wrote:Well, seeing as I'm trying to get Jazz to give me a call, (more to cement my decision that where I am is better than there!) I find it rather frustrating that they value 200+hrs of circuits and a diploma more than my 4200 of everything else and a degree. ..
You want to know why you have not been called? Because of your attitude. You think you're entitled to an interview before a new grad simply because of your background and experience. This sense of entitlement is the number one reason why you and others like you will never be called. You will be the complainer and troublemaker all through your career as your bitterness seeps through on every pairing. Airlines want to hire applicants who love their present job and are happy to simply be involved in avaition and are not just passing time waiting for "the call". The fact that you even care that they haven't called you yet says soooooo much about your attitude. I know guys with half your time that are already on course. Better get used to it.

ahhh bullshit. Did you read this all in some self-help book or on another aviation forum? The applications aren't even screened by humans initially, just scored and filtered. Didn't they teach you that in Air Law 101 or Met 202 or whatever they call those dressed-up Transport courses they charge a fortune for at the colleges?
I Like Myself wrote:
The pilots from these colleges will be pilots who are trained to the legal standard and who I’m sure in all cases will be individuals who are talented, motivated and eager at the opportunity (yes even the Seneca grads).
Well, I guess that's one bright side to this whole joke of an experiment...it will make it glaringly apparent just how low the legal standards really are. Newsflash...legal ain't always the smartest...please, someone tell me again how Canada is like Europe or Jazz is like KLM or the Emirates Aviation College is like Seneca? lol
stratcat wrote:
Hey how about an even 12000 a year for the snot nosed brats. Jazz is so cheap already,unbelievable.
And that really is the bottom line....if Jazz paid something resembling a living wage (hey c'mon out to the GTA for 33k/year, woohoo!) maybe they wouldn't be quite so SHORT of qualified applicants in the first place!!

"You get what you pay for" will never be so evident as it will be when this happens...buy your WestJet stock now...
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Post by trey kule »

Here is a little different take on the Jazz situation. I happened to be chatting with a friend last night who got on with Jazz last year. He was big time qualified.
Asked him about this program. He said it was due to two main reasons. The first is that they are having some trouble attracting qualified pilots at the wages they were offering, and secondly, due to upgrading times, many of those they did hire are planning to leave. He did not know the actual attrition rate.
So...hire new grads. They will accept the low wages and long waits.

This is not trolling, but it is only the take of one of their own. Made some sense to me.
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Post by Doc »

I know several pilots who would be mor than happy to jump to Jazz. And these guys have some time. Hey, I don't know anybody who doesn't! These are guys with turbine time....and they'd take a Jazz job TODAY! Sorry Trey. but Jazz is full of dog crap! They're making an excuse....and we ALL know it!
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Post by Ralliart »

The first is that they are having some trouble attracting qualified pilots at the wages they were offering
So rather than raise the wages to attract experienced proven guys, they keep the wages low and attract no-experience unknown guys.....umm yeah great call :roll:
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Post by stratcat »

boy thats the truth. Aviation in canada-just when you thought you seen everything something else comes along.Next thing the airlines will be advertsing in the newspapers:
AirCanada-pilots wanted,must be french,female and have daddy in company.Experience not required.
Jazz-pilots wanted, must not have over 250 hours and must be under 21.Those with experience need not apply.Starting wage 12000 a year.
WestJet-Pilots wanted. Must be willing to leave present employer with many thousands of dollars worth of RJ training and fresh PPC.
The only respectable company is Canadian North.
Nice industry were in folks
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Post by trey kule »

Raillart.

I cant defend the rationale behind the decision as I am just quoting what I was told. That being said the person that did give me the information is someone I have known , and flown with, for a long time. I normally agree with the posters that say...my second cousin's best friends. pen pal knew someone......but in this case I made an exception based on my knowledge of the person...and I believed I was clear as to the source of my information ..dont feel I really needed the ragging from one of the posters. If he disagrees fine. NOw to get to your point.

Rather than raising wages, it might be that they looked at what a FO was really required to do, decided that if upgrading was not an issue they did not have to look for experienced pilots, and could get away with lower costs...besides...where are these new FO's going to go...lets face it, sending a resume our with 2000 hours of which 125 is PIC is going to be an attention grabber

I do not think this will be a long time program but we will have to wait and see.
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ettw
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Post by ettw »

Well, lots of opinions here but if there weren't it wouldn't be an aviation forum. :lol:

I think there certainly is alot to be said about experience. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, what about the Gimli glider? Would it have turned out as well (which under the circumstances was bloody perfect!) if the Capt had never done any gliding? Now I'm not saying that all pilots should also have gliding experience but that all pilots in command should have EXPERIENCE. I think an experienced cockpit greatly increases the odds of success when the abnormal happens, you know, this stuff that ISN'T in the checklist. Can a newly minted CPL pilot bring that to the cockpit, generally I think not.

BUT if you are going to hire newly minted CPL pilots to a cockpit, let it be the RJs and 320s of the world as I think (and I have never flown either of these aircraft) that these types of aircraft operate in enviornments where the lack of experience is less likely to cause grief.

I think the argument is strong that the JAZZ now has NO deprogramming to do. The only way to do something is the JAZZ way of doing something. Don't have to worry about wasting time in a groundschool listening to some one tell the whole class how they did it back in the bush. Might make the groundschools even faster, which would save more money. This in conjunction with the 12000 a year makes a very strong SHORT TERM business case for going right to the colleges.

When its all said and done, will I feel uncomfortable sitting my butt in an RJ seat knowing that neither the Capt or FO have any experience other than RJ experience, not really until I see the ground to air missle streaking up at us on TO....then I'd really be wishing Hedley was up front in the left seat.

Cheers,

ETTW
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Post by Cat Driver »

Choosing pilots is like looking for someone to paint a picture for you.

You can hire a talented artist.

You can hire a paint by numbers graduate.

It all depends on what you are looking for.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Post by pika »

The A300 crew had zero experience landing an airplane after being hit with a missile The Sioux City DC-10 also had no experience landing an airplane with no hydraulics. Sometimes you make the best of what you have been given. Once the grads are typed they are part of the solution.
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Post by Cat Driver »

" Sometimes you make the best of what you have been given. Once the grads are typed they are part of the solution. "
So Pika if you were sitting in the back and something not covered in the SOP's was being dealt with up front who would you want solving it.

Two artists?

Two paint by numbers grads?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Post by pika »

How about two qualified pilots who made the best decisions available based on the information they had at the time? Depending on the situation some days require an artist and some days require a paint by number fix. Simple really.
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Post by Stinky »

The A300 crew had zero experience landing an airplane after being hit with a missile The Sioux City DC-10 also had no experience landing an airplane with no hydraulics. Sometimes you make the best of what you have been given. Once the grads are typed they are part of the solution.
I'm sure there previous experience is what saved there asses. If a situation is not covered in the SOP's and creative solutions by the pilots are needed, I want guys up front that have been around the block a few times, not merely a guy with a valid type rating.
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pika
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Post by pika »

Sadly the only way to get experience on a fresh type is to fly the airplane. Do you recomend a 500 hour sim program just so guys are experienced enough before you will book a seat?

Am I the only here who has flown with low time or new FO's on type? Whether you like it or not it is your job as Captain to help develop young/new FO's into Captains. They will not know everything and are not expected to. I say again that is the old school "checking" philosophy. "Training" is here to stay so you better get used to it.
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Post by Cat Driver »

" Am I the only here who has flown with low time or new FO's on type? Whether you like it or not it is your job as Captain to help develop young/new FO's into Captains. They will not know everything and are not expected to. I say again that is the old school "checking" philosophy. "Training" is here to stay so you better get used to it. "
Yes, a lot of us have flown with low time FO's, so what exactly is your point?

Are you suggesting that us " old school " types were never trained properly and don't know how to train an FO?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Post by Doc »

So it's really all about the almighty dollar. "Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome aboard. We are being operated today by the lowest priced crew we could find." Hell, if astronauts can wear diapers, why not the FO's??
Yup, you keep pounding that sunshine there Pika....as soon as that 200 hour guy is typed, we have nothing to worry about!
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Post by pika »

Are you suggesting that us " old school " types were never trained properly and don't know how to train an FO?
You tell me Cat. How do you do it?
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Post by Cat Driver »

" You tell me Cat. How do you do it? "
I personally use all the factors that experience has taught me dovetailed with the best methods for the type of flying I would be focused on with the individual training lesson.

There in my humble opinion are two distinct areas of flying with the seperation point being between Airline and the other sectors of flying, each requires a specialized skill and should be taught based on what has been proven to be the best method of getting the necessary skills absorbed by the student.

There is a vast difference in flying an S64 heli logging on the West Coast of B.C. and flying a Boeing or Le'Bus.

I would assume your focus would be flying big jets, so if my student was from that flying decipline I would use what I learned at Airbus Industries in their Sim from six of Airbus's top instructor / test pilots, and from the training flying in the Boeing with a high time Captain / Sim instructor.

By the way the last flight I did as a working pilot was in the Boeing and my last fingers on aircraft programming was typing in the route from Bagrham Turkey back to Amsterdam with the training Captain watching and checking my old fingers walking across Europe in the virtual world.......


http://www.arkefly.nl/arkefly/search/searchFlight.do


........I'm lucky in that I have well trained fingers that have explored many different places.

Hope that helps you to better understand how I teach. :roll:
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Post by pika »

Makes sense to me. Why won't that approach work at Jazz?
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Post by Fline@9 »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA DocJock.... your reply just made my day.

Why? No matter how many here will deny it, there isn't a shred of bad blood in it... and it's all completely true (still LOL) :wink:

I don't like what Jazz is trying but man what a hell of an opportunity. All the other stuff aside, the first guy that says they wouldn't take that opportunity if it were presented to them at that point in their careers, with so few hours I would flat out say... is simply a liar.
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Please, no more witty sayings, smug advice, or bitter posts from low timers. Pay your dues. Be patient...
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Post by Donald »

Here's a scenario for the new grads....

You take the Jazz job fresh out of college with your 250hrs and straight into the right seat of the RJ/-8. You have a couple good years, and just when you are getting close to the upgrade....BAM...things tank in the industry yet again.

How's that resume going to look now? 3-4000 hours, all right seat airline time, and you're fighting the "bush-qualified" guys for navajo-type jobs just to pay the bills...
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